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John,
I agree regarding the trend to smaller “regressive” cartridges. Somewhat ironic to be having that discussion under a by-line about the
26 Nosler and 6.5-300 Wby.



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SU35, SKane and others who commented on my long post,

Actually, I have already published an article along similar lines, in RIFLE LOONY NEWS. the quarterly on-line magazine my wife Eileen and I write and publish. (Actually Eileen publishes it; I'm just what's known in some circles these days as a "content provider.)

Am going to publish it again as a chapter, probably with some additions from this post, in GUN GACK II, my next book, which should be appearing in late summer.


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I am withdrawing my offer. Here is why.

You know a 338 shooting 200/210 bullets isn’t quite as good as a big 30 shooting 200’s at the same velocity of 3000. The big 7 guys will say a 175 at 2950 is just as good as the 30. 280 guys will say shooting a 150 @ 3000 with R26 is pretty much the same as a 7RM. Now the CM lovers will say a 140 at 2800 is just as good as the 280. I think this reasoning is referred to as INCREMENTALISM.

When will I hear the argument that the CM does the same work of a 338? Actually most cartridges are, broadly speaking, more alike than different.

One of my hunting pals, now deceased, said pick something and use it until it fails, then and only then go searching for something else. He was talking about hunting. Since I am a hunter, that is my perspective. I was a buyer and builder of many rifles for many different cartridges and eventually discovered the futility and wastefulness of it all. There is always something new to chase. The entire commercial enterprise is built around that premise. It keeps manufacturers, magazines, and related commerce moving and churning thereby increasing the bottom line. That is OK by me but I am skeptical about the claims attributed to new cartridges.

I do think the big improvements are due to bullet technology, both terminal and in-flight, optics, and range finders. Sadly there is almost no talk of improving the ability of the shooter.

I hear these tales of a 6.5 CM moving a 140 @2800 in a 22” barrel but I have never seen the load data. Perhaps it can be done with R26 but that is the only powder which might do it. There are many ways to move 130’s at 3100 in my old time 270. Plus I never find myself in a place where there isn’t ammo to make it go BANG.

My friend John will point out that I continue to build 270’s and he is correct. However, I am the first to admit I am not making many improvements. Actually the primary reason I must build more is because my friends keep making off with my most recent one. That has happened to the last 5.

Last edited by RinB; 02/18/18.


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Hear, Hear Mr. Rin:

[/quote=Rinb]You know a 338 shooting 200/210 bullets isn’t quite as good as a big 30 shooting 200’s at the same velocity of 3000. The big 7 guys will say a 175 at 2950 is just as good as the 30. 280 guys will say shooting a 150 @ 3000 with R26 is pretty much the same as a 7RM. Now the CM lovers will say a 140 at 2800 is just as good as the 280. I think this reasoning is referred to as INCREMENTALISM. [quote]

Thanks for the title, I haven't heard that one.
However I've been listening to that argument per 300 Mags->30-06->308->300Sav ! !
AND 7 mags ->-> 270 ->-> 6.5 creed. huh. smirk "just as good as".

AIN'T SO. I have been told and read here on the 'fire' that you can SEE the diff when the 300 Mags hit an Elk compared to lesser cartridges. NOW the lesser cartridges WILL kill the animals reliably BUT the MORE powerful cartridges produce visual reaction.

I HAVE SEEN that with a 35 Whelen when shooting WT. It's like getting the wind KNOCKED out of you or being hit with a brick vs a ball.

Thanks

Jerry

Last edited by jwall; 02/18/18.

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Rin B : Your "friends" are just trying to save you from yourself wink

Seriously though, the improvements we see are incremental. Sometimes small steps forward, sometimes backwards.
The commercial successes aren't always due to better results. Sometimes just better marketing and distribution.

Is the .280 better than the .270 ? Not if you can't find ammo for it in the stores in hunting country. That is the ultimate test.
Doesn't matter if it's Improved 28 RCBS, or SAAMI AI 40 - No brass, No bang.

Why are the premium bullets not loaded in .280 Rem ? Demand & Supply.

6.8x64 is available world-wide with virtually every suitable bullet.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
SU35, SKane and others who commented on my long post,

Actually, I have already published an article along similar lines, in RIFLE LOONY NEWS. the quarterly on-line magazine my wife Eileen and I write and publish. (Actually Eileen publishes it; I'm just what's known in some circles these days as a "content provider.)

Am going to publish it again as a chapter, probably with some additions from this post, in GUN GACK II, my next book, which should be appearing in late summer.


Ok, Ok - I'll Re-subscribe to RLN smile

And somehow I need to find a way to deliver both of your new Big Books - catapult across the Medicine Line maybe
Sometimes I think those int'l parcel shipping costs are based upon a quick lap around the Moon wink

Well, My Loony hat doesn't have ear-flaps, and I'm hiding in the outhouse from the thought police -- Brrr


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Rick,

Who's said the 6.5 Creedmoor matches the .280?

I was pointing our how the 6.5 Creedmoor, used with the same brand/type of 140-grain bullet as the .270 starts immediately (and pretty quickly) catching up, to the point where the 6.5mm bullet is within 100 fps at 500 yards--despite starting 250 fps slower.

The velocity I used for the 6.5 Creedmoor, 2750 fps, is exactly what I get with 140's in a 22" barrel, using the load I've settled on for the moment, 43.0 grains of IMR4451. Sierra lists 42.9 grains as getting 2800 in a 24" barrel.

Speer's latest data, just recently released, lists 42.1 grains of Reloder 26 getting 2849 fps with the also-new 140-grain Gold Dot--which has a listed BC of .571. Am planning to test 26 with other bullets ASAP, but also need to get hold of some of the Gold Dots.

You're obsessing about muzzle velocity again!


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dang, my reloading manuals are woefully dated...

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John,
I don’t know if I am obsessed or possessed. Perhaps both. I think I will give up hunting and take up golf.

Last edited by RinB; 02/18/18.


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Fascinating conversation, gentlemen! I come down decidedly in the "CM camp", with the new-fangled high-BC bullets being pushed rather moderately by today's standards and being used to good effect on animals beyond "normal" hunting range with a few simple tools. And I seriously dislike "suck BC bullets"!

I always appreciate your writing, John Barsness, and I'm looking forward to Gun Gack II.


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Rick,

Well, the question in the back of my mind now, is why you're thinking of trying the 150 Nosler AccuBond Long Range with Reloder 26, when you've done just fine with the .270 using bullets with lower BC's, and powders that don't get quite as much muzzle velocity.

What are you looking for? More RLM (Rifle Loony Madness)?

My excuse is I have to fool with a lot of rifles, because it's my job. Of course, it probably wouldn't have become my job without a severe case of RLM....


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Rick,


You're obsessing about muzzle velocity again!



SHhhh MD ! He thinks I'm his friend. I'm trying to sneak up on one of his carbines ! smile

I think he's threading them for a suppressor


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That might be it!

prairie_goat has a suppressed .270, which I've shot on prairie dogs. It works great on PD's--and also on elk! Might be the ideal all-around rifle.


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Originally Posted by RinB
John,
I don’t know if I am obsessed or possessed. Perhaps both. I think I will give up hunting and take up golf.


Shooting old golf balls on the rimfire range with a .22 is a blast esp with kids, and a 10/22 . wink


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Originally Posted by RinB
...One of my hunting pals, now deceased, said pick something and use it until it fails, then and only then go searching for something else...

Not to hijack a thread, but, that is one of the wisest statements I have read in a long time.

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Mule Deer,
In support of my thoughts about the greatness of the 270W I must cite you to the writings of my buddy JOHN BARSNESS.

He recently wrote an article on the great 270W for RIFLE. He makes a brilliant analysis of the significance of BC. MR BARSNESS forcefully makes the point that BC doesn’t matter much inside 500 yards. In his article on the 6.5-06, MR BARSNESS makes the same compelling point. Further, he explains how the ancient beast, the 270W not me, is flatter shooting than the 6.5 Creedmore within 500 when using the classic load of 130’s at 3100.

Who am I to dispute his erudite analysis? In the words of Master Yoda, unassailable his logic is!

Me, I have used many different 130’s all at around 3100. For the last 10 to 12 trips I have mostly used various monos.

I have never gotten more than 2850 with 150’s using older powders and 2850 doesn’t do much for me. The 2750 “steak” has even less sizzle. R26 has changed that. I am getting ready for trip #25 and thought I would try lead core 150’s at 3000. In PM’s MR BARSNESS has told be how well the 150 NPtn works so I decided to follow his advice. I threw in the 150 LRAB just to take advantage of the “free lunch.” I would continue to use the 130’s but MR B was quite emphatic about greatness of the 150 Partition (despite its BC).

Lastly, wind isn’t much a concern for me. I am a rather delicate fellow and if the wind blows, I retire to the lodge for a martini and snacks.

So, I suggest you contact MR BARSNESS. He is a fine fellow, a good man. He has a first rate mind. I believe he lives near you.
Cheers.

Last edited by RinB; 02/18/18.


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Originally Posted by RinB
Mule Deer,
In support of my thoughts about the greatness of the 270W I must cite you to the writings of my buddy JOHN BARSNESS.

He recently wrote an article on the great 270W for RIFLE. He makes a brilliant analysis of the significance of BC. MR BARSNESS forcefully makes the point that BC doesn’t matter much inside 500 yards. In his article on the 6.5-06, MR BARSNESS makes the same compelling point. Further, he explains how the ancient beast, the 270W not me, is flatter shooting than the 6.5 Creedmore within 500 when using the classic load of 130’s at 3100.

Who am I to dispute his erudite analysis? In the words of Master Yoda, unassailable his logic is!

Me, I have used many different 130’s all at around 3100. For the last 10 to 12 trips I have mostly used various monos.

I have never gotten more than 2850 with 150’s using older powders and 2850 doesn’t do much for me. The 2750 “steak” has even less sizzle. R26 has changed that. I am getting ready for trip #25 and thought I would try lead core 150’s at 3000. In PM’s MR BARSNESS has told be how well the 150 NPtn works so I decided to follow his advice. I threw in the 150 LRAB just to take advantage of the “free lunch.” I would continue to use the 130’s but MR B was quite emphatic about greatness of the 150 Partition (despite its BC).

Lastly, wind isn’t much a concern for me. I am a rather delicate fellow and if the wind blows, I retire to the lodge for a martini and snacks.

So, I suggest you contact MR BARSNESS. He is a fine fellow, a good man. He has a first rate mind. I believe he lives near you.
Cheers.



Zing! Well played sir cool


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
That might be it!

prairie_goat has a suppressed .270, which I've shot on prairie dogs. It works great on PD's--and also on elk! Might be the ideal all-around rifle.


Hey I know that guy!

The 17" barrel of that suppressed rifle will spit out 150s over RE-26 at ~2850, essentially duplicating normal 270 factory ammo. The rifle also sends 110 ttsxs at 3050-3100 with a couple different faster burning powders.

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Originally Posted by gerry35
Originally Posted by RinB
Mule Deer,
In support of my thoughts about the greatness of the 270W I must cite you to the writings of my buddy JOHN BARSNESS.

He recently wrote an article on the great 270W for RIFLE. He makes a brilliant analysis of the significance of BC. MR BARSNESS forcefully makes the point that BC doesn’t matter much inside 500 yards. In his article on the 6.5-06, MR BARSNESS makes the same compelling point. Further, he explains how the ancient beast, the 270W not me, is flatter shooting than the 6.5 Creedmore within 500 when using the classic load of 130’s at 3100.

Who am I to dispute his erudite analysis? In the words of Master Yoda, unassailable his logic is!

Me, I have used many different 130’s all at around 3100. For the last 10 to 12 trips I have mostly used various monos.

I have never gotten more than 2850 with 150’s using older powders and 2850 doesn’t do much for me. The 2750 “steak” has even less sizzle. R26 has changed that. I am getting ready for trip #25 and thought I would try lead core 150’s at 3000. In PM’s MR BARSNESS has told be how well the 150 NPtn works so I decided to follow his advice. I threw in the 150 LRAB just to take advantage of the “free lunch.” I would continue to use the 130’s but MR B was quite emphatic about greatness of the 150 Partition (despite its BC).

Lastly, wind isn’t much a concern for me. I am a rather delicate fellow and if the wind blows, I retire to the lodge for a martini and snacks.

So, I suggest you contact MR BARSNESS. He is a fine fellow, a good man. He has a first rate mind. I believe he lives near you.
Cheers.



Zing! Well played sir cool

wink

grin grin

Jerry


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Originally Posted by SKane
Originally Posted by RinB
jwall
Bobby and I laughed and then laughed some more about how the ancient 270 out performed the 6.5 Creedmoor out to about 500 for BG hunting. He got that Creedmoor barreled action from me. I got the parts in a trade and sent it to Bobby cause he was curious about all the fussing and noise. It is what it is, 140 @ 2700. BFD!



I remember the call the first day he shot that one at the range - "Skaaaawt, this thing drops like lead - gimme the phaaawwking .270......Do you want another Creedmoor?"


[quote=RinB] [/b] Further, he explains how the ancient beast, the 270W not me, is flatter shooting than the 6.5 Creedmore within 500 when using the classic load of 130’s at 3100.[b]

Boy Howdy -- I have RUN OUT of room in my SIG line.. frown

I am going to FIGURE OUT how/where to store this UNTIl I decide how I want to EDIT my sig line. TOO VALUABLE !! wink


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