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The 'morality ' aspect. If you can get your family to safety, and you could do something about it,would you leave other innocents at the mercy of a gunman? I wouldn’t. Especially not that one. It’s pretty clear cut and that guy would be easy.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The 'morality ' aspect. If you can get your family to safety, and you could do something about it,would you leave other innocents at the mercy of a gunman? Nope.
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The 'morality ' aspect. If you can get your family to safety, and you could do something about it,would you leave other innocents at the mercy of a gunman? Of course not, once my family was out of play. I I don't mind George placing George in harm's way, but I'm not risking my wife/son for strangers.
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Outfitter
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It'd be a clean shoot here.
The whole moral obligation thing will surely go crazy here, but I'll say that until I KNOW that all of my tribe are fersureandfercertain safe I'm not playing hero for anybody else. It would be terrible if while I'm getting my people out somebody else gets hurt, but I suppose that those people could've bought a gun too.... I've had pretty heated arguments about that stance with my peers. When they ask how I could sleep at night knowing that somebody had died while I was getting my family out I answer, "I'd sleep miserably. But I'd sleep miserably with my family safe and sound in my home." I see nothing wrong with that thought process. “Young” guys questioning the ‘morality ‘ aspect? Nope. Every single one was an old guy questioning my bravery and dedication to the cause. It was a off-duty concealed carry class and I facilitated it for a few hundred people. It got a little heated a few times. Interesting. I would think it's a given, especially for older/experienced guys, to realize that our choices shouldn't impact family unless absolutely necessary. George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Having a family who depends on one's income and future earnings to survive, putting yourself at risk has to be seriously considered.
NOTHING is guaranteed once you decide to "get it on."
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I think it’s a generational difference. The older guys see it as a calling and their identity is wrapped up in being the “sheepdog”. And another generation sees it as a career, with clearly defined on-off duty parts of their lives.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Like most smart, forward planning cops..........monetarily I'm worth more as a corpse.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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An armed robbery is absolutely a shooting thing. The question is if you’re willing to do the shooting in this armed robbery. Yep. Armed Robbery is a justification to use deadly force in TX. I still would have moved my Family out of harms way first before engaging the shooter, though.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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It'd be a clean shoot here.
The whole moral obligation thing will surely go crazy here, but I'll say that until I KNOW that all of my tribe are fersureandfercertain safe I'm not playing hero for anybody else. It would be terrible if while I'm getting my people out somebody else gets hurt, but I suppose that those people could've bought a gun too.... I've had pretty heated arguments about that stance with my peers. When they ask how I could sleep at night knowing that somebody had died while I was getting my family out I answer, "I'd sleep miserably. But I'd sleep miserably with my family safe and sound in my home." I'd sleep damn well myself. I owe nothing to no one but my family. My primary is get/keep them safe. Once that's done, if I reengage and am killed, I've failed my family. Not saying I wouldn't but certainly would not say I absolutely would. If shooting starts before family can get clear, then getting involved is a no brainer. Another consideration. As a civilian if I step in and take him on and no shots have been fired. That gets him to shoot I could be held liable for someone being shot in the resultant [bleep]. Again, I've failed my family if I am sued and impoverished by some f'ing lawyer after the fact.
Montana MOFO
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My wife knows the drill and she would have been so out of there on her own that I would not have had to worry about her. But, I am not seeing anything there that makes me see an imminent need to deal with him inside at the precise second CCW guy decided to go for it.
ETA: If CCW guy saw something indicating that the bad guy was escalating or about to take hostages or shoot somebody, I would understand it.
Last edited by Cheyenne; 02/04/18.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My wife knows the drill and she would have been so out of there on her own that I would not have had to worry about her. But, I am not seeing anything there that makes me see an imminent need to deal with him inside at the precise second CCW guy decided to go for it.
ETA: If CCW guy saw something indicating that the bad guy was escalating or about to take hostages or shoot somebody, I would understand it. The robber had a deadly weapon! That’s enough.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It'd be a clean shoot here.
The whole moral obligation thing will surely go crazy here, but I'll say that until I KNOW that all of my tribe are fersureandfercertain safe I'm not playing hero for anybody else. It would be terrible if while I'm getting my people out somebody else gets hurt, but I suppose that those people could've bought a gun too.... I've had pretty heated arguments about that stance with my peers. When they ask how I could sleep at night knowing that somebody had died while I was getting my family out I answer, "I'd sleep miserably. But I'd sleep miserably with my family safe and sound in my home." I'd sleep damn well myself. I owe nothing to no one but my family. My primary is get/keep them safe. Once that's done, if I reengage and am killed, I've failed my family. Not saying I wouldn't but certainly would not say I absolutely would. If shooting starts before family can get clear, then getting involved is a no brainer. Another consideration. As a civilian if I step in and take him on and no shots have been fired. That gets him to shoot I could be held liable for someone being shot in the resultant [bleep]. Again, I've failed my family if I am sued and impoverished by some f'ing lawyer after the fact. Agreed. Ohio lost "stand your ground" at the poles a few years ago. With family in range of gunfire, if things go wrong, and with other options like retreat available, it would not be wise to reingage with the robber, unless the threat came to me or mine, directly. And since the CCW carrier had lots of time to creep forward, why did he not check his weapon? Mine has a hot chamber indicator, I can see and touch, the safety should have been a no-brainer to check if he uses a safety. Clearly he did not practice deployment from the manner of how he carries.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Posts: 67,667 |
I am just not a sheepdog. My family first, always, then unless there appears there will be a blood bath, I'm not going to get involved to save the store's money.
Sam......
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Campfire Outfitter
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I don't think I would start a shooting if I was fairly sure there wouldn't be one unless I did. On the other hand,under some circumstances I wouldn't want to give a guy the choice to either shoot me or not.
I don't think anyone would know what they would do until it happens, but I'm not the guy who thinks I have to kill the bad guy.I think some situations might call for action and some for discretion. I'm the guy who would consider shooting, while also considering that a lot of things could go wrong. The last thing I would ever want would be to cause the bad guy to shoot someone else while trying to shoot me.
Last edited by R_H_Clark; 02/05/18.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Dippy Fumbles screwed the pooch on the first bobble and better be glad he aint dead.
Trump Won!
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Campfire Outfitter
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It'd be a clean shoot here.
The whole moral obligation thing will surely go crazy here, but I'll say that until I KNOW that all of my tribe are fersureandfercertain safe I'm not playing hero for anybody else. It would be terrible if while I'm getting my people out somebody else gets hurt, but I suppose that those people could've bought a gun too.... I've had pretty heated arguments about that stance with my peers. When they ask how I could sleep at night knowing that somebody had died while I was getting my family out I answer, "I'd sleep miserably. But I'd sleep miserably with my family safe and sound in my home." Agree 100%. I used to be a Deputy Sheriff in Texas...the operative phrase is “used to be”. I have a retired peace officer concealed carry permit, but I am not a Peace Officer any more and I should not act like one. My obligation is to first keep my family safe. If I got them out of harm’s way and went back in to engage the shooter or shooters, I have reescalated the confrontation between me and the bad guys. I don’t believe a jury would accept that course of action from me
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I am just not a sheepdog. My family first, always, then unless there appears there will be a blood bath, I'm not going to get involved to save the store's money. Yep... What little that guy got out of the register isn't worth my life or anyone else's. Unless I was completely convinced he was in fact going to kill someone, I would just let it go down, and report what I saw. I'm not a cop, and my first duty is to my family; and since I'm the provider, that means I need to keep myself alive. If I became convinced he was going to shoot someone, then I would step in.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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For the guys saying that he’d intervene if they thought he would actually shoot someone...
What thing would happen to convince you of that? Because he’s already brought a gun into the store and pointed it at people. The next step seems to be mirder, at which point it’s a little late to be wondering if he’s gonna shoot someone.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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For the guys saying that he’d intervene if they thought he would actually shoot someone...
What thing would happen to convince you of that? Because he’s already brought a gun into the store and pointed it at people. The next step seems to be mirder, at which point it’s a little late to be wondering if he’s gonna shoot someone. Exactly!
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,659
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,659 |
Well there's really no way to definitively know. The VAST majority of armed robberies happen without a shot fired, so it's more about probability. But demeanor and body language can tell you a lot. There certainly are no guarantees either way.
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