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Kinda new to loading cast bullets and really need some advice.
I'm shooting a Colt Cowboy in 45LC and have a serious leading problem. Here's the details:

I slugged the barrel and come up with a groove diameter of .4500". The bullet is a .452" Cast Performance LBT style heat treated 250gr RNFP,
most of which actually measure around .4529 on my micrometer. They are supposedly between 18-21 Brinell hardness. They have a clear dry lube. I'll have to take their
word for it because I can't really detect it although they don't feel rough.
The throats of the chambers are at .454". The forcing cone starts at .455". I'm shooting 6.0 gr of Titegroup for a measured velocity of ~820fps.
FWIW, I also notice sooting on the fired cases, but only at one point, not all the way around.
I don't see any chamber to bore misalignment, and it's depositing only the tiniest amount of lead on the frame above the cylinder gap.

Is this simply a problem of shooting too large a bullet? Wrong hardness? Wrong lube? Wrong speed/pressure?
Could the sooting on one side be because of the relatively large diameter of the throats?

The lead build up after just a few rounds is severe. Any advice from you experts is much appreciated.
Thank you.

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Hard bullets and hard lubes are horrendous leaders when pushed with powder puff loads. If you have a full size Ruger then load those up with a max charge of 2400 of H-110/W296.

For the loads you're using you'll need a relatively soft bullet and my experience is softer lubes seem to work best.

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Originally Posted by 458 Lott
Hard bullets and hard lubes are horrendous leaders when pushed with powder puff loads. If you have a full size Ruger then load those up with a max charge of 2400 of H-110/W296.

For the loads you're using you'll need a relatively soft bullet and my experience is softer lubes seem to work best.


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For that load you need something in the 9-10 BHN range sized at least .453" with some soft lube like LBT Blue Soft.

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AzJeeper;

If you don't cast and have to buy your bullets, take a look at these options for the velocities you are after;

Cowboy Bullets LINK

Ed


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The soot on the cases is because your loads are very low pressure, so the cases aren't fully sealing the chambers.

As others said, low pressure and really hard bullets don't do very well sometimes. Try a softer bullet or a hotter load.

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I may have missed it but I always size my bullets to fit the cylinder throats not the bore as the throats are usually or should be slightly larger in dia. If the bullets you have slip through the cylinder throats easily a larger dia. bullet is in order.


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Originally Posted by AzJeeper
They have a clear dry lube. I'll have to take their
word for it because I can't really detect it although they don't feel rough.

Titegroup burns hot and those bullets are way too hard. Bullets that hard are for full power loads, but with good coating they should work...maybe they slipped through and the coating wasn't properly cured or without getting good coverage or any at all.

Call them up and have them ship you some bullets that actually have some lube in the grooves and your problem should go away.

Or you can lube them... take some LBT soft and use your fingers to fill the grooves.

Or get a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox and fingers or paint it on the bullet shank with a 3/8" artist paint brush. Maybe 2 coats in the grooves. Set it on plastic or aluminum foil to dry between coats.

Sounds like a lot of work but it only takes 5 minutes to do 100 bullets.

Coated bullets as from Bayou Bullets are a reliable product that won't lead with any load.


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Originally Posted by res45
I may have missed it but I always size my bullets to fit the cylinder throats not the bore as the throats are usually or should be slightly larger in dia. If the bullets you have slip through the cylinder throats easily a larger dia. bullet is in order.


Yep.

Bullets sized to fit SNUG to the throats at low pressure shouldnt need lube at all, assuming the gun finish isnt rough. Your bullets are too small and too hard to bump up to make a sealed base at your loading pressure. Go softer for hardness (9-8 BHN) or use a bullet snug fitted to the throats. .454-456 in your case. Id be using a bullet that will push through with some force if staying with hard bullets or barely slip with soft 8-9 BHN.
.
The sooting on one side of the case is from TiteGroup being position insensitive. Very often, even with loads beyond 20,000 psi. it will still exhibit case fouling on one side and even case obturation down one side; its especially noticeable with carbide dies.

Remington bulk 255's are .454 and soft as well. Try them as a building block to good accuracy without leading and go from there. The trick with lead bullets is leaving a tapered path for the bullet from case mouth to muzzle, always having the bullet base sealed and supported by steel. Lube and hardness are secondary factors to the all important seal/fit.

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You guys are awesome!
Thank you all for these very informative responses. You've taught me a lot,
and I appreciate you all taking the time to craft these excellent replies. This is my first posting on here
and it's so nice to see a forum where people keep things positive and helpful.
I'm going to keep this thread open for a while longer in case anyone else has something to add.

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So basically you're having problems because you're doing everything wrong... laugh

Bullet too hard...bullet too small in diameter...wrong powder...

You have several issues going on all at the same time and it might be confusing to try to figure it out.

I'd start over...

A softer .454 diameter bullet 250 gr bullet would be a good place to start.

I prefer coated bullets.

I like Bayou Bullets. They will supply that bullet with their bullet-proof coating in a custom diameter at no extra charge at a good price....you just have to ask them.

They are good folks. Their bullets are probably harder than necessary, but their coating is so good that I would challenge them to lead with any load. Plus, they cost a lot less.

Titegroup powder is known to be problematic in some circumstances, and I don't use it for a number of reasons. A powder like Unique is more cast bullet friendly in the Colt.

The good news is by starting over there's nowhere to go but up... smile



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Welcome to 24 hour Campfire, AzJeeper. You will find a lot of helpful folks on this site.


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I found some 250gr Remington RN bullets in my stash. They are .455" which feel like a better fit in these chambers.
They don't bind, but they don't flop around either. The reviews say they're soft, just like HawkI said they'd be.
I'll stop using the Titegroup and go with good ol' Unique.

I'll post the results in a couple of days. Thanks again guys. I feel like I'm on the right track here.
It's a good feeling.

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The next step is not deforming or shaving them during seating or crimping. They wont tolerate as much battering as harder slugs, but the alloy should bump up under pressure.
Dont give up on the TiteGroup. Try it with the softer slugs. I'll bet it works fine...Should you get a hint of leading, shake them in a bag of liquid Alox. Its cheap.

What dies are you using?

Most guns in 45 Colt I shoot these days have 454-455 throats and Ive had good luck with RCBS Cowboy dies with expanders made for cast bullets. I dont know what diameter it is, it just works well. The seaters also come with both FN and RN stems.

A good bell on the case mouth helps. The same goes for coated bullets and shaving off the plating.

Good luck to you.

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A big thank you ALL for the spot-on advice. Those soft Rem 250gr .455's that I found lurking in my stash
worked really well. I only had time to try one powder, so I went back to Unique to start with. I gave the cases
a good bell and crimped them well, watching for any creep on the unfired rounds in the cylinder.
Accuracy seemed okay, and best of all.....NO LEAD BUILD UP!!

The only problems I detected were some continued sooting on side of the case (but not too bad overall)
and some inconsistency in the velocities I recorded. Most were right on the money at about 875 fps,
but a few of them were about 100fps slower. I could feel it in the recoil and those cases produced more soot.
I was really careful on the weighing of the charges (8.5gr), double checking them all before dispensing,
and the seating depths and crimps were very consistent. Is this something that Unique is known for?
Perhaps it is rather position sensitive? I wish I'd had the time to try some Titegroup or Trail Boss.



HawkI, in regards to the dies, I'm using Lee dies right now and they seem to be working fine. I do have
a set of the RCBS Cowboy dies that I'd like to try. I think I got them in a horse trade somewhere along the line.
That may be how I acquired this assortment of bullets that I don't even remember buying!
I bought this gun about 15 years ago and am just now getting around to trying it! Been rather rifle obsessed for
a while. I also shopped for a bottle of the Lee Alox you recommended just to have, in case of need, but the store was out of it.
If I ever acquire a rifle in 45LC I wouldn't mind shooting up those hardcast bullets with a stiffer load, and I just
don't trust the invisible lube on those things so I may need me some Alox.

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I know some like to bash Unique as a dirty powder, it's only dirty when run at lower pressures same with position sensitivity. I always use thrown charges with Unique and other pistol powders for that matter.

I can live with a dirty gun if it's accurate, and with the right load I've found Unique to be capable of extremely accurate groups.

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Soot will come from the bullet lube regardless of how clean burning the powder is.

They reformulated Unique a few years back, so newer lots of Unique burn cleaner. Unique is not the latest and greatest powder, there are newer improved powders available, but it works fine.

Velocity variations can also be related to chrono technique, or the inherent accuracy of the unit you are using.


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My most accurate load with this 300 gr bullet {cast 30:1 alloy} is 6.5 grains of Unique sized .454 with a healthy crimp..Perks along at a tad over 1K from my 66 win..Dirty or sooty? not anymore than some other powders with zero leading or fouling. Softer alloy,softer lube,healthy safe charge,proper sizing and good crimp will most always make a 45 Colt sing.

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Off the bench with my Ubert 1866 "Yellow Boy".. younger eyes could probably do better.with just the stock barrel sights.

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Woody, is that SPG lube in those bad boys?


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