Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns Looking for 410 over & under suggestions and anything out there for sale ?

Hi everyone ,little bit of a story involved so bear with me a good friend of mine recently had to give up long gun hunting do to a placement of a pacemaker and a port for dialysis so he's selling of his collection and one thing that caught my eye was a little 410 over and under with 28" barrels ,handled like a dream made by Kahn ,never heard of them before but liked the gun I hesitated and another one of his friends snatched it up,so now the bug has been planted and the search has begun ,I've handled a few that felt like boat anchors , I saw a Franchi looked gorgeous HEAVY and didn't handle well at all ....ATI handled well with choke tubes no less ,never saw that in a 410 before ,so is Kahn still manufactured ? And any input about the ATI , how well built reliability etc ?
Any other suggestions ? Anyone have one they'd like to sell ? ,something I'd pass down to my grand daughter one day
Not related to what I'm looking for but he had a Stoger side x side 410 ,HEAVY LIKE A ROCK a heavy rock ,any input appreciated

What’s your budget? I have no input as to make, but really the sky is the limit as to what’s possible up spend. $500? $1000 $20000?

I'd like to stay in the $500 range I saw the ATI combos 410/28 gauge for under $700 which I thought was good but are they on a larger frame ? Straight 410 with choke tubes and single selective trigger around $500 +/-

For $500 the offerings in a 410 O/U are going to generally be on larger frame guns and will feel cumbersome. Guns like the baby frame Beretta Silver Pigeon I in 28 or 410 can be bad in the $1500-2000 price range and feel like a wand. They also are nearly indestructible and can be repaired domestically should they ever fail.

The Kahn that my friend had as well as the ATI where a dream to handle

A $400 O/U is not likely to be of heirloom quality as are the rest of the Turkish made shotguns. Their low cost is the result of more than just the price of labor. They are no different than any other "price point" items in that they are meant to be disposable rather than repairable. One hundred years ago, Cresent Arms made shotguns for anyone that wanted to put their name on a shotgun; a few have lasted to this day but they are not priced very high, even for those very few in great shape. Trying to find parts when (not if) one has a breakage is usually an effort in futility as customer support is one of the plac s costs are cut. Same goes for gunsmiths, a good smith won't bother with them as fixing one requires more time and effort than it is worth for questionable results.

A 410 built on a true 410 frame is a joy to carry but a pain to shoot well. They have never been popular for this reason which is why they are so expensive. Anyone who uses a 410 for any serious amount of shooting chooses something heavier for higher and more consistent scores/results.

In the "affordable" range of roughly $2000-$3000+ there is Beretta, Ceasar Guerrini, and a few others. The Browning Cynergy is a bit heavier but is also a little less expensive at under $2000. The lower priced Berettas also fit into this category. The Browning Citori and Japanese made Weatherby/SKB and Franchi shotguns also fall into this grouping. I have a Citori and a Beretta 682 in 410 which have proven themselves reliable over and over again. Both were bought before choke tubes became popular but the recent models have them.

As I have already stated, I would be very, very leery of Turkish shotguns. They have come a long ways forward in quality but considering where they were they still have a ways to go.

Gunbroker has a handful of khan 410s if that’s what you’re after. Upper $300 range.

Yes I saw those has anyone actually owned one ?or had experience with them ?

Thank you for your input but I'm not looking to invest that much in to said gun , and as I stated the Franchi I handled was poor handling and heavy like a rock

Stevens 555

There's a thought ,thank you

Rick I'm pretty impressed with the Stevens, they aren't heirloom quality but definitely serviceable

One of the guys in our gun club shoots weekly with a 555 in 28, at several clubs and has had no issues

I was pleasantly surprised with my 555 in 410. I would recommend highly.

Does anyone know if the Stevens are available with 28" tubes ?

No, the 410,28, and 20 are only available in 26 inch tubes

Too bad

I found this 50 year old Salvinelli at a gunshow and snapped it up. It's like new and light as a feather. Not much help to you I guess, but it's nice to think about it in the off season.

Daughter and SIL are co-owners in a small ranch/hunting preserve. We have a nice dove hunt every year opening 2-3 days. I generally use a Model 42 Winchester (.410) opening day. Another snob uses a Guerini .410 O/U that is a really nice gun, but it is way past $500.

As previously recommended, the small frame Beretta's is where I would look. Unless you score a deal on a nice used one, they start at about 3x the mentioned money.

I did a search for Kahn shotguns, but the only O/U s they list are 12 ga.

Best wishes,

Jack

Beretta builds it's Silver Pigeon .410's and 28's on the same "baby" frame. Think about acquiring a 28 instead of a .410. Same handling qualities and much more versatile. Avoid .410's and 28's built on 20 gauge frames as they are too heavy and bulky for a 410 or 28. Look for a good solid used one.

My Silver Pigeon 28 is a death ray on quail. Does a surprisingly good job on sporting clays, too.

Beautiful shotgun !!!

I think I'm going to keep my eyes open for both a 28 and 410 Italian made over and under at some point but to fill the void I pulled the trigger on a ATI 410 over and under. 28" barrels ,5 choke tubes included for under $500 handles like a dream but as I said I'm keeping my eyes open for both 410 and 28 Italian made double

My favorite birdgun is a 28 gauge SxS.

I got a CZ Woodcock Mini 410/410 from Derrick last year and really like the gun... extractors only and that has been an issue once, but how many grouse do you have to kill at once?

While I have seen some reason for concern with larger gauge Turkish doubles I doubt the 410 is an action stretcher...

Beautiful double

Rick, I think you'll be impressed with that ATI

It's not "frame stretching" that is the problem (though the 410 operates at a much higher pressure than the 12 ga except maybe the 3.5" shells and it is the amount of pressure that can contributes to frame stretching) but the wearing of internal parts that is the problem. To get such a low price point corners must be cut and part of that equation is the quality of steel used.

Typically, the wear surfaces are case hardened in these instances and then the longevity is dependent on how well administered the process, the thickness of the hardening, the underlying hardness of the steel, and how well the parts fit together. Amount of use is a variable as heavy use will lead to replacement sooner but that is a gamble as a gun at the low end of the quality spectrum will still break after little use-it will just be a longer time by the calendar. On the other hand, if all went well, a low price point gun may give a long time of hard use.

Some parts may be easy to repair, if you can get the parts, but some items such as pivot points are much harder and very costly to repair. Berettas are designed for replacement of pivot points and they run in the area of $300 to replace last I saw a few years ago. And that is after many tens, if not hundreds of thousands of rounds going down the barrel.

Regulating barrels so they shoot relatively together is also a significant cost. It is more complex than pointing a laser down the barrels and then soldering them together. There are a number of steps to get a decently regulated set of barrels and that costs time and money. The big manufacturers lessen the time and effort through strict quality control of the materials, processing and assembly but even they have a few dogs slip by.

Another factor leading to suspicion of low price point items is quality control. The higher the standards and the more frequent the checks, the higher the cost of production as this leads to more rejects and/or time fixing errors. Low priced items tend to do less in depth inspections as well as less frequent inspections allowing for more potential problems to pass.

Figure in the shelf price includes a 5% mark up for dealer profit, 11% for Pittman-Robertson tax, likely 5% profit for the manufacturer, and what is left has to cover materials, labor, rejects, loss, shipping, advertising, depreciation of equipment, and whatever other expenses are involved and one sees there are numerous corners being cut.

I have been bitten by price point firearms many more times than not and I have seen many, many others have similar experiences. There is a saying that goes something like, "Only rich men can afford low quality as only the rich can afford regular replacement." I have had guns sit in the corner for years due to broken parts that were unavailable and the price to have them made was much more than the value of the gun. Thankfully, Numrich Arms will take them though only for pennies on the dollar. Ship 4-5 at a time as shipping will often eat up the price of at least one gun. I understand finances but always buy the best quality one can afford. In the case of shotguns that may mean a pump or semiauto rather than an O/U or SxS for a given amount of money but one will end up further ahead in the long run.

You left out very low labor costs in Turkey...

Five per cent is way too low for dealer mark-up, even in the land of very small mark-ups.

The action stretching comment was tongue in cheek as that was a common comment years ago.

With about half the surface area on the shell head going against the action face as a 20 gauge, even at a bit higher pressure I think the 410 is relatively gentle on most aspects of the wear. Enough so it did not bother me to try one.

Labor costs were addressed, it is included in the manufacturer's cost to produce the product along with materials and depreciation. If profit mark ups are greater than I surmised, that would leave even less for actual manufacture of the product.

5% is pretty close to mark up on a bottom tier firearm from what I have seen comparing wholesale and shelf prices of reasonably sized retailers. A large seller may be a bit higher as they can get a volume price break as well as possibly buying direct from the manufacturer thereby skipping the distributor mark up. Mom and pop stores vary too much to predict as their purchase prices may be higher due to the sales model they choose to follow: high price/low volume or low price/high volume.

"Frame stretching" is a new one for me regarding shotguns. A shotgun goes off face due to compression of the hinge and not the breech face. Not cleaning under the ejectors/extractors is a significant cause of that problem. Not cleaning/lumina trunions, hinge pins, or whatever the manufacturer calls its pivot points is most of the other reasons. have heard and seen "frame stretch" with black powder era/designed cartridge rifles and pistols but not shotguns. I'll have to remember that term for shotguns.

As for the effect of pressure on the frame, I am pretty sure a 410 framed gun would have a greater force pushed against the breech face than a 20 ga due to the breech surface area compared to relative pressures. In a 20 ga frame, the 410 would have a lesser force acting against the breech face. I'm not familiar enough with the consept to explain it better but it is why the T/C Contender pistol could handle the 223 Rem class cartridge but not larger ones even though pressures were essentially the same. T/C had to design the Encore to handle larger cartridges.

Surface area of the cartridge head multiplied by the force exerted (choose your units) determines how much force is applied to the breech face. The 20 gauge gun has double the surface area and less than a 10% decrease in pressure. I would prefer to use psi, as CUPs is nonlinear.

I bought a Yildaz from Academy Sports a couple of years ago on a whim. It had really nice wood that just really stuck out on the rack. True .410 frame and was surprised at the nice machining when I took it apart to clean before I shot it. Around $550 if I remember right. No Beretta or Browning, but a very good gun for the money. I've taken several limits of doves with it. I usually start out with my Browning 12 gauge and really appreciate the .410 by the third weekend on my shoulder. I find it makes me a little better shooter when I go back to my larger gauge guns because I learn a little patience in picking my shots with the .410 and the low brass shells that I can find and afford to buy for it.

Take a long look at the Stevens 555. I am going to purchase one in 20ga. as soon as my 20ga. BPS sells. Played with a pile of them at the local Scheels and they are really nice for the money.

They are $599 at Scheels, but they will price match ANY add as long as the item is in stock! I expect to pay $520 for mine when the time comes.

Anybody interested in a VERY nice condition BPS 20ga.? PM me for pics!

Elk Country

I handled a Stevens 555 .410 recently and was impressed. I am seriously looking at getting a .410 in a Remington 1100. If my tastes change I can see me getting the 555 mainly for the price.. Good luck, Dave

Chasing empties tain't fun...

410's - 101 & 11-48





A couple of answers to "whippy"






DMc