Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Monometal bullets question

Please stay on track with this question......simply stated....Why is there any lead in rifle bullets today?.....What function does the lead serve in today's rifle bullets?

Cost of manufacturing process and materials

Intended role of the bullet

Unequal performance of lead subsitutes

High density at a low price. Lead has a density about 26% higher than copper, for example.

Cost, also they are shorter, they stabilize in slower twist barrels.

Simply stated, there is no reason other than some people like lead better than copper. The cost difference is all but vanished. Since Barnes released the TSX the problems, both real and imagined, are gone.

What remains for difference between lead and copper bullets is basically we do not as yet have an equally effective very long range bullet compared to the very best of the lead core even while the vast majority lead core bullets are no more effective than copper at the maximum ranges for copper. The probability of dropping an animal in less distance traveled after the shot may be some higher with lead core, but it is also not of significance for the vast majority of animals shot with either.

We are getting very close at long range with the Barnes LRX. If we say “long range” is out to 800, then I’d say it’s a wash. Beyond that the only thing lead has is a higher BC which certainly helps out at the edge of (questionable) range.

Given that the copper bullets will pretty much be superior in terms of holding together at close range, deeper penetration and less meat damage at nearly any range, we may actually gain more by using an LRX for long-range hunting than we do a frangible lead target bullet which may have only a possible advantage for an extremely low percentage of shots we might actually take, say from 800 yards and beyond.

While Cu Bullets do have some real benefits to the hunter, IMO they are yet to equal the terminal performance of lead bullets for consistent expansion as well as the already mentioned benefits such as greater mass allowing for better performance for a given bullet and caliber. I happen to think at this time that the best bullets are made by Federal and are hybrid half Cu, and half lead. The Cu shank giving a hard base for good penetration and the lead bonded tip for great expansion.

I have worked up loads in my 308 using the 175 LRX from Barnes and the 170 Naturalis from Lapua and both of them are excellent bullets that I would use without reservation but still I prefer the 165 Trophy Bonded Tipped hybrid over either of them since it has all the benefits and can exceed them both by 50-100 fps due to it's lead composition making the bullet shorter for a given weight which allows more powder for a given over all length. ( Yes I know that's an invalid comparison but in like bullet weights it's still true )

It's really what you like though, both Lead and Copper bullets get the job done.

casting one's own

Copper = Cu
Lead = Pb

Miles,

The cost difference has "all but vanished"?

I just looked at several websites that sell reloading supplies, checking the prices for 165-168 grain .30 caliber bullets. Whether the monolithics are Barnes, Hornady or Nosler, they cost around twice as much as cup-and-core lead-core bullets, often from the same company.

Here are some examples:
Barnes TTSX 34.99/50 (The hollow-point TSX was the same price)
Hornady Interlock 27.99/100
Hornady SST 33.99/100
Hornady GMX 32.99/50 (special sale price)
Nosler Ballistic Tip 17.99/50 (special sale price)
Nosler E-Tip 35.99/50

For me, the fact that I have a few thousand cup and core bullets weighs pretty heavily in favor of continuing to shoot them. For hunting, it's unlikely I will live long enough to need any more (I'm 69). For target bullets, I buy them every year and they all have lead. GD

Compare apples to apples.

Compare cost of the bullets to cost of what you are doing.

If I want to make holes in paper that's a whole different thing than making holes in Bambi.

A quarter per bullet difference in price is nothing to me even when I put a couple hundred through a rifle solving it for that particular bullet. Most rifles can be solved inside of 50 rounds.with $1000 in a rifle and scope $30 in bullets doesn't mean anything.

Now you are offering an opinion that the difference in cost is not substantial considering other factors such as cost of weapons, etc,

But "apples to apples" fact: the cost per bullet of monometals is about twice that of CnC bullets.
.

I'd say double the cost is not a "vanished" difference.

Lead is denser so the B.C.'s are higher and the bullet will retain energy at long range better than an all copper one. I'll disagree that the all copper bullets have equaled the on game performance of lead, I think they're surpassed it. An all copper bullet will out penetrate one with lead nearly 100% of the time and the early expansion problems have been solved.

If I'm target shooting or varmint shooting then the cost comes into play when deciding what bullet to use. For big game it's a silly argument, I couldn't care less if I spend an extra $.50 a bullet for the one thing that determines whether I'm successful or not.

southtexas,

The ratio of the cost of Barnes bullets to cup-and-core bullets 20 years ago was about the same as it is today, according to the 1998 Handloader's Digest. (That was before Hornady, Nosler and other companies started making monolithics, so Barnes was the only model.) The reason is pretty simple: Even though metal prices fluctuate, copper always costs more than lead.

If you compare the cost of premium cup and cores, the bondeds, the partitions etc that are about the same.

Yes. Premium Bullets cost about twice as much as “standard” CNCs.

Don’t see your point.

Because lead-core bullets do many things well, and at a reasonable cost. Is there some point you're trying to make, or is this a straight question?

To be fair, he asked about lead in today's bullets. You are giving your opinion about why you use premium bullets. You're not answering his question.

Lead is still being used because it is cheaper, and was always used. If you go back to the days of lead balls/muzzleloaders, lead was a malleable material that would conform to the barrel with minimal effort. You stuffed lead into the barrel and it squeezed down to size.

Along came smokeless powder and bullets could be pushed considerably faster. They were already using lead, an easy to find, cheap, and soft material, but they found it couldn't handle the pressure without lead lining the barrel, so they wrapped the lead in copper alloy. Until a few years ago, when monolithic bullets started being made and used, they just kept making cup and core bullets as they always had done, since smokeless powder became the propellant of choice.

Of course, there were a few improvements over traditional cup and core, but lead still remains an easy, cheap and malleable substance to work with in the manufacturing business. They tried changing lead for other metals or methods, like sintered bullets, but for varmints, target and medium game, lead continues to be the go to material for bullet manufacturers.

Yes....there is a point to be made.

1. I envision the mono-metal bullets (lead free) as premium bullets.....not to be compared to such bullets as corelokts, power points and other standard cup and cores.....and when I look at comparing the lead free bullets to other "premiums the prices are roughly equal.....and when I consider that I typically use North Forks and A-frames for high priced hunts (elk hunts can easily run well over $6,000) the (I use Barnes) mono-metals actually cost less.

2. It is well proven (no arguments here) that entrails etc. left in the field from lead cored bullets can and do kill birds of prey such as Golden eagles and ravens etc. I have to ask if this is good for the future of hunting.

3. A North Dakota study has proven higher levels of lead in the systems of humans after eating venison based foods such as sausages and folks.....we feed this stuff to our kids as well.

I've read a very good many comments on forums such as this one and there is consensus that the killing ability of monometal bullets is as good as any others. Further, there are absolutely no formulas that deal with the physics of ballistics that uses density as a component....only weight (mass if you prefer). Many of today's finer bullets have quite large (comparatively) amounts of copper relative to lead (look at partitions, and more so the North Forks and Trophy bonded bullets from Federal (formerly Speer if I remember correctly) Yes, as one poster mentioned the twist rate of some and possibly all rifles would have to be faster to stabilize an equal weight of copper verses a cup and core bullet but all of my .308 caliber guns easily handle 180 grain Barnes bullets and thats all I need for hunting anything I want to hunt with a .30-06 or .300 magnum. Maybe Barnes also makes a 200 grain lead free 30 caliber bullet but I have no need of them so don't look for them.

For those that cast their own bullets......well, frankly, I don't know anyone that takes cast bullets on a high priced elk hunt or plains game hunt, or for that matter, even a local deer hunt.....but I'm sure there are some, yes, lead is far easier to cast than anything I can think of. You folks have my admiration. Please be careful how you dress your game and make sure you get the same meat back from the processor when you take boned out meat to them for processing. Also please bury the entrails after field dressing to protect birds of prey. I am not sure if the potential of lead poisoning also pertains to foxes, coyotes, bobcats, and other fur bearers that might scavenge on the remains left in the field......this is in the best interest to the future of hunting as I see it.

is there a point to be made?.....yup and here it is.....even if you use the traditional cup and core bullets (and they still killl deer and elk just fine) the extra cost of a lead free bullet is about a quarter.....a very small price to be paid to help safeguard the future of hunting and the health of humans that eat the venison from the hunt. (BTW I like the comment heard from Steve Hornady: "At what point in the death of the deer did the bullet fail") In my world the bullet failed when the core disconnected from the jacket.....and it's happened to me many times and that's why I went to premium bullets.....and yes I discovered it by finding in in a DEAD deer! Steve didn't miss that one at all!!!

Further there is no evidence at all that we give up anything but the possible 25 cents by switching to lead free ammo for hunting big game......and the benefits could be very large in deed.

I must say that my decision to make the switch is stranding a lot of lead core ammo that will eventually be used at the target range teaching kids and other new shooters some shooting skills and gun safety but it just makes sense to me to get with the program and start using lead free bullets for big game.

Be your own judge folks!