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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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(BTW I like the comment heard from Steve Hornady: "At what point in the death of the deer did the bullet fail") In my world the bullet failed when the core disconnected from the jacket.....and it's happened to me many times and that's why I went to premium bullets.....and yes I discovered it by finding in in a DEAD deer! Steve didn't miss that one at all!!! No, Steve didn't miss that one at all but you sure did when you twisted what he said to fit your own concept of "bullet failure." Core separation is not what he meant by "bullet failure" with a dead deer at his feet.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Please stay on track with this question......simply stated....Why is there any lead in rifle bullets today?.....What function does the lead serve in today's rifle bullets? I have not tried any other metal to cast bullets with... Except, antimony, tin added to lead. Cast bullets work very well, especially in handguns but also in less than 2,000 fps rifle loads. I'll have to ask, why would you want anything but lead in your 44 special, mag, 45 Colt, 38 special, or 357 Mag. Or almost any other straight walled cartridge. I wouldn't think of shooting anything but lead or perhaps a lead alloy in my 45-70 or my 45-90. Mostly the same is true with other lever guns. Finally, shooting is a lot of fun. If a person would shoot quite a few rounds a day the only cash conscious way would be with cast bullets. My question is: "Why would anyone shoot copper or copper clad bullets when cast works just as well, maybe better in many cartridges?"
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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Yes. Premium Bullets cost about twice as much as “standard” CNCs.
Don’t see your point. My point is that the copper bullets perform better than any cup and core I have experience with and still out penetrate premium cup and cores. I like that they always make two holes. I like that they very nearly always penetrate in a very straight line. These are performance improvements I am willing to pay for. An aside, I have not observed any tendency for a deer to run any further when I shoot them with monos. That may well be because a very high percentage of the deer I have shot with monos at ranges inside100 yards have dropped where they stood. It might just be because I am very particular about where I put bullets in deer. It might just be the data set is small enough that any effect toward increased run is masked. For instance one year I killed four that were all shoulder shots and all four dropped where they’re stood. Zero run. Out of less than 100 deer, four of which I would have expected to run at least some, dropping in their tracks is a result I do not necessarily believe is typical. Outliers happen. I shot a fawn with a copper .451 bullet that passed through both scapula an inch or so above the humerus joint. The only recognizable lung tissue left was about a fist size chunk of the bottom of one lung, The upper portion of the heart was gone. That one made it 50-60 yards. I don't care what you shoot 'em with, when those two pieces of tissue are all that is left in a chest full of red soup and the hole through is easily big enough that I could have run a shovel handle through you just cannot be expecting that deer to run anywhere. He just swayed back a little when it hit and then took off. My experience is that if they run, 25-30 yards is fairly typical and the longest run of any I have shot with a mono is about 70 yards on a deer with damage remarkably similar to the fawn. My numbers statistically will not mean so much since I shoot deer with a lot of different rifles in a lot of calibers. But... I shoot monos in everything and do not see enough difference between calibers with them that I would even consider hazarding a guess as to what caliber a deer was shot with if it was a mono. The holes look the same to me. I have said it before and stand by it. Today's monos are far and away the best bullets I have had to reload with since I started in 1956. That doesn't mean that the best of the premium bonded cup and cores are not better than most of what I have had in the past, nor that they are not acceptably close to the monos in performance. That said, with the monos performance at that level I see no reason whatsoever to shoot deer with anything but copper. I still shoot more cup and cores than anything else, but that's for making holes in paper and varmints. I have done my time shooting deer with bullets nowhere near this good and have no need to go back. Oh! I also settled on monos in my .357 and in my .40 S&W. I did a lot of testing, and the penetration with those 125 grain bullets is there, the low velocity expansion is there. and even with that big ass hollow point they hold together at max velocity quite nicely. Miles. I’m glad you are happy with your monos. I have tried them, and for my purposes they have performed no better, sometimes, worse, a than standard bullets that cost half as much. So for me, at least, the cost difference hasn’t vanished.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Miles, In agreement with your assessment! We have used monobullets exclusively since early ‘90’s. They’ve “only” improved over the years. Cup and core certainly have their place, but for us ...... “if it’s big game, it’s mono’s”! Cup and core for, paper, varmints, etc. and plinking.... of course “cast” Bullets would work for that as well! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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OP
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I did a quick comparison between ballistic coefficients using many popular .308 caliber bullets with weights ranging from 175 to 180 grains.
Barnes TTSX..................484
Nosler accubond............507
Federal trophy bonded.....not listed
Sierra game king............501
Hornady SST..................480
Remington core-lokt........not listed
Hornady interlock............425
Swift a-frame...................400
Nosler partition..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,361........(possibly the most polular of all premium bullets)
Speer spritzer boat tail.....540
Hornady ELD...................271
Barnes LRX tipped...........508
For those that may not understand that number.....the higher the number, the better the bullet will retain velocity at any given range or....the higher the number, the less velocity loss will be incurred by the bullet at a given range. This translates to higher energy levels at long distances.....
Data direct from Midwayusa.com
Last edited by vapodog; 02/19/18.
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I have no idea what the point is of posting the BCs of several Bullets. But you’re certainly following your own advice of keeping it on track.
And I find it interesting that for the 180 gr Partition you cherrypicked the BC of the protected point rather than the standard 180partition which has a BC of .474. Another example of fake news..?
And the Hornady ELD has a BC of somewhere around.550,depending on which bullet. It’s certainly not .271!
Last edited by southtexas; 02/19/18.
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The ELD BC # is a G7, as opposed to the G1 of the others.
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I did a quick comparison between ballistic coefficients using many popular .308 caliber bullets with weights ranging from 175 to 180 grains.
Barnes TTSX..................484
Hornady ELD...................271
Barnes LRX tipped...........508
For those that may not understand that number.....the higher the number, the better the bullet will retain velocity at any given range or....the higher the number, the less velocity loss will be incurred by the bullet at a given range. This translates to higher energy levels at long distances.....
Data direct from Midwayusa.com
You've mixed a G7 in with the G1's and your subset accidentally missed the higher bc Nosler ABLR's and Hornady ELD-X's. Amongst hunting bullets a better comparison might be: Barnes .308 200 gr - .423 (TSX) 200 gr - .546 (LRX) Nosler ABLR .308 190 gr - .597 210 gr - .661 Hornady ELD-X .308 200 gr - .597 212 gr - .673 To answer your original question. For me, monometal bullets don't perform as well as bullets containing lead. That doesn't mean that they won't work but for me they don't work as well. As an aside I find it amusing that someone with a screen name of vapodog would be worried about lead poisoning.
What would Porter Rockwell do?
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Campfire Regular
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I did a quick comparison between ballistic coefficients using many popular .308 caliber bullets with weights ranging from 175 to 180 grains.
Barnes TTSX..................484
Nosler accubond............507
Federal trophy bonded.....not listed
Sierra game king............501
Hornady SST..................480
Remington core-lokt........not listed
Hornady interlock............425
Swift a-frame...................400
Nosler partition..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,361........(possibly the most polular of all premium bullets)
Speer spritzer boat tail.....540
Hornady ELD...................271
Barnes LRX tipped...........508
For those that may not understand that number.....the higher the number, the better the bullet will retain velocity at any given range or....the higher the number, the less velocity loss will be incurred by the bullet at a given range. This translates to higher energy levels at long distances.....
Data direct from Midwayusa.com
Not that I care one wit for the outcome of anyone's decision along these lines, but your information is misstated. The Nosler you list is the Protected Point, and while a fine bullet, I do not think it nearly as popular as their 180 grain Spitzer. The 180 Nosler Spitzer b.c. is listed as .474. The Hornady ELD you list is probably the 178 grain ELD-X and you've listed the G7 b.c. not the G1 as you did for the other bullets. The G1 b.c. for the ELD-X is .535. I did not review all of the numbers you provided, but these are two that jumped at me as misleading.
Suck bullets simply suck.
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Comparing BCs of monos to lead core bullets???? Anyone who's used them much figure out in a hurry that using the much lighter monos results in much better performance because of the speed. A 130 grain monoonce it connects with Bambi will outperform a 180 cup and core. With the vast majority of deer being killed at inside 100 yards, let alone 300 yards where BC just begins to make a difference, it's a fools argument either way.
In all the years I have been killing deer I haven't yet found the need to shoot one past 300. I have looked at then out there, I have considered it. I have gone so far as to set up several rifles to be capable of it. But... when I can more or less pick and choose which deer I want it just hasn't come down to being any kind of necessary, and they get a lot harder to identify way out there. Light fast monos work better. Heavy slow monos do not. Heavy for caliber monos need magnums to take advantage of what they have to offer, and even with the mags you need a lot of gun to get close to their upper limits. Like I said earlier in this thread, if I decide to kill one way out there it will most likely be with a soft cup and core. I like as much insurance as I can get.
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Comparing BCs of monos to lead core bullets???? Anyone who's used them much figure out in a hurry that using the much lighter monos results in much better performance because of the speed. A 130 grain monoonce it connects with Bambi will outperform a 180 cup and core. With the vast majority of deer being killed at inside 100 yards, let alone 300 yards where BC just begins to make a difference, it's a fools argument either way.
In all the years I have been killing deer I haven't yet found the need to shoot one past 300. I have looked at then out there, I have considered it. I have gone so far as to set up several rifles to be capable of it. But... when I can more or less pick and choose which deer I want it just hasn't come down to being any kind of necessary, and they get a lot harder to identify way out there. Light fast monos work better. Heavy slow monos do not. Heavy for caliber monos need magnums to take advantage of what they have to offer, and even with the mags you need a lot of gun to get close to their upper limits. Like I said earlier in this thread, if I decide to kill one way out there it will most likely be with a soft cup and core. I like as much insurance as I can get.
Agreed. There is no doubt in my mind that a 120 TTSX fired from my 6.5x284 or 260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor will, when impacting within 500 yards, penetrate every bit as much if not more than the same impact from a 180 Nosler Partition fired from a .30-06 or even a 300 Win Mag or WSM.
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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I posted the BC data as a reference to an earlier post that "density" plays a role in BC....I posted the data as they came up on Midwayusa website....no cherry picking here at all.....if the Nosler protected point isn't applicable for reference then so be it.....In particular I wanted to show the difference between the Barnes TTSX and the Swift A-Frame. The A-Frame has been my go to bullet for some time....until I discovered how good the Accubonds are. The A-Frames were the bullets I took on both of my safaris to RSA....not for their BC but for the terminal performance they can deliver.....and I'm going to miss them a lot . But after reading countless posts about the terminal performance of the TTSX bullets, I'm not at all concerned about the change.
Or to put it another way.....BC isn't at all the deciding criteria for picking the bullet we might wind up shooting.....and in most cases it isn't a secret....the BC is available (usually)
Eventually, when it's all boiled down the purpose of lead in the manufacture of big game bullets is non existant....it serves no purpose at all. And for me when I consider my usual bullet selection of A-Frames and/or accubonds, the cost is quite similar and much less than A-Frames.
My last years harvest was two cow elk and six deer...all of which has been turned into hot dogs, polish sausage, summer sausage, and Salami.....and a bunch of this is being consumed by six kids under 10 years of age.....further it is quite possible that one of the elk I shot resulted in the death of a golden eagle as the accubond I recovered from the carcass weighed 61 grains less than the 180 it weighed originally. The eagle was later found nearby and taken to a Raptor center in Santa Fe, New Mexico where it died.....and upon examination, it was confirmed that the cause of death was lead poisoning.
That rancher asked me If I would use lead free ammo next year and I said yes....I can see no reason not to. That ranch and several adjoining it have decided to impose lead free hunting as a requirement. This is not at all a government mandate....it's coming from the folks that own the land I hunt on.....
You folks feed anything you want to your kids and grandkids.....and deal with local ranchers in the way that serves you best.....I'll do the same.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Could have just said, "Nuff said!".
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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vapodog,
Thanks for the details.
One of the ranches where I shoot prairie dogs in Montana also requires lead-free bullets, for the same reason as the ranch where you hunted. That's one reason I've been using lead-free varmint bullets for a while now. Lead-free is going to be more common in the future, whether due to legal or landowner requirements. I noticed in one of your recent posts that you're using lead-core bullets for prairie dog shooting, because you have a large supply. You might consider switching to lead-free bullets there too, as a lot of scavenging birds show up as soon as they hear shots on PD towns.
One technical point about your ballistic coefficient comparison: The BC similarity for bullets over 180 grains disappears, because heavy monolithic bullets are so much longer they won't stabilize even in some rifling twists considered "fast" these days. That's why Barnes doesn't make, say, a 210-grain .30 caliber TTSX. While BC is unimportant to you and Miles, it is to some other shooters--including target shooters, who use far more bullets than big game hunters.
One other minor point: Are you taking your big game to commercial processors to be turned into various kinds of sausage? If so, they're probably using chemicals you might not want to feed your children. Which is one reason my wife and I make all our own sausage (including hot dogs), as well as jerky.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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vapodog-- I believe I am familiar with the rancher as he is a colleague and I have traded some info with him on this subject elsewhere. He recommended sharing his blog post on the subject where it might do some good, so I am posting the link http://horsesidevetguide.com/Save+Golden+Eagles+with+Lead+Free+BulletsI appreciate your concern and respect for the rancher's wishes and the species involved.
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vapodog,
Thanks for the details.
One of the ranches where I shoot prairie dogs in Montana also requires lead-free bullets, for the same reason as the ranch where you hunted. That's one reason I've been using lead-free varmint bullets for a while now. Lead-free is going to be more common in the future, whether due to legal or landowner requirements. I noticed in one of your recent posts that you're using lead-core bullets for prairie dog shooting, because you have a large supply. You might consider switching to lead-free bullets there too, as a lot of scavenging birds show up as soon as they hear shots on PD towns.
One technical point about your ballistic coefficient comparison: The BC similarity for bullets over 180 grains disappears, because heavy monolithic bullets are so much longer they won't stabilize even in some rifling twists considered "fast" these days. That's why Barnes doesn't make, say, a 210-grain .30 caliber TTSX. While BC is unimportant to you and Miles, it is to some other shooters--including target shooters, who use far more bullets than big game hunters.
One other minor point: Are you taking your big game to commercial processors to be turned into various kinds of sausage? If so, they're probably using chemicals you might not want to feed your children. Which is one reason my wife and I make all our own sausage (including hot dogs), as well as jerky.
Mule Deer, I appreciate your info.....and for the record, I haven't shot prairie dogs for several years....and yes.....I remember hawks and even burrowing owls helping to clean up a dog town....even as I (we) were still shooting. Should I get to do some more Pdog shooting, I'll certainly find some 22 cal and 6mm cal monometals. As to the issue of meat processing, I and my hunting friends are actually buying grinders, mixers, stuffers, and the rest of the works to process our own sausage.....mostly we reasoned that we have no idea if were getting the same meat back that we boned out and delivered to the processor. The idea that we might be getting chemicals in the meat from the processor never occurred t us....but the process of doing it ourselves is certainly under way.
Last edited by vapodog; 02/19/18.
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Yes. Premium Bullets cost about twice as much as “standard” CNCs.
Don’t see your point. My point is that the copper bullets perform better than any cup and core I have experience with and still out penetrate premium cup and cores. I like that they always make two holes. Could be an issue depending on the game/critters being hunted.
The last time that bear ate a lawyer he had the runs for 33 days!
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My point is that the copper bullets perform better than any cup and core I have experience with and still out penetrate premium cup and cores.
I like that they always make two holes. How?
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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Campfire Ranger
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My point is that the copper bullets perform better than any cup and core I have experience with and still out penetrate premium cup and cores.
I like that they always make two holes. How? For the guys wanting to minimize pelt damage 1 hole is preferred. Ricochets for the guy shooting prarie dogs. I do a little coyote hunting around quite a few cattle and like how lead bullets pretty much lose all of their weight to minimize pass throughs and ricochets. Show me a mono that won't skip to the next county after shooting through a coyote, fox or cat.
Last edited by 10gaugemag; 02/19/18.
The last time that bear ate a lawyer he had the runs for 33 days!
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My point is that the copper bullets perform better than any cup and core I have experience with and still out penetrate premium cup and cores.
I like that they always make two holes. How? For the guys wanting to minimize pelt damage 1 hole is preferred. Ricochets for the guy shooting prarie dogs. I do a little coyote hunting around quite a few cattle and like how lead bullets pretty much lose all of their weight to minimize pass throughs and ricochets. Show me a mono that won't skip to the next county after shooting through a coyote, fox or cat. Well, first off coyotes don't need much killing and shooting them with a mono suitable for deer makes no sense on any level. Second there are monos that won't make two holes. Nosler and Barnes make all copper bullets that do an excellent job of coming undone when they hit anything. A little common sense applied to this goes a very long way to eliminating ricochets. I can understand wanting to keep lead out of the environment. I do not see it as a problem in most varmint hunting situations. Prairie dogs could be a problem, but I never met anyone who shot them with premium lead free bullets, and at that most towns can be approached to have a mile behind them that's clear and I wouldn't shoot a town with less free space behind it. Shooting toward a house even a long way away gives me the heebie-jeebies.
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