Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Monometal bullets question

Please stay on track with this question......simply stated....Why is there any lead in rifle bullets today?.....What function does the lead serve in today's rifle bullets?

Cost of manufacturing process and materials

Intended role of the bullet

Unequal performance of lead subsitutes

High density at a low price. Lead has a density about 26% higher than copper, for example.

Cost, also they are shorter, they stabilize in slower twist barrels.

Simply stated, there is no reason other than some people like lead better than copper. The cost difference is all but vanished. Since Barnes released the TSX the problems, both real and imagined, are gone.

What remains for difference between lead and copper bullets is basically we do not as yet have an equally effective very long range bullet compared to the very best of the lead core even while the vast majority lead core bullets are no more effective than copper at the maximum ranges for copper. The probability of dropping an animal in less distance traveled after the shot may be some higher with lead core, but it is also not of significance for the vast majority of animals shot with either.

We are getting very close at long range with the Barnes LRX. If we say “long range” is out to 800, then I’d say it’s a wash. Beyond that the only thing lead has is a higher BC which certainly helps out at the edge of (questionable) range.

Given that the copper bullets will pretty much be superior in terms of holding together at close range, deeper penetration and less meat damage at nearly any range, we may actually gain more by using an LRX for long-range hunting than we do a frangible lead target bullet which may have only a possible advantage for an extremely low percentage of shots we might actually take, say from 800 yards and beyond.

While Cu Bullets do have some real benefits to the hunter, IMO they are yet to equal the terminal performance of lead bullets for consistent expansion as well as the already mentioned benefits such as greater mass allowing for better performance for a given bullet and caliber. I happen to think at this time that the best bullets are made by Federal and are hybrid half Cu, and half lead. The Cu shank giving a hard base for good penetration and the lead bonded tip for great expansion.

I have worked up loads in my 308 using the 175 LRX from Barnes and the 170 Naturalis from Lapua and both of them are excellent bullets that I would use without reservation but still I prefer the 165 Trophy Bonded Tipped hybrid over either of them since it has all the benefits and can exceed them both by 50-100 fps due to it's lead composition making the bullet shorter for a given weight which allows more powder for a given over all length. ( Yes I know that's an invalid comparison but in like bullet weights it's still true )

It's really what you like though, both Lead and Copper bullets get the job done.

casting one's own

Copper = Cu
Lead = Pb

Miles,

The cost difference has "all but vanished"?

I just looked at several websites that sell reloading supplies, checking the prices for 165-168 grain .30 caliber bullets. Whether the monolithics are Barnes, Hornady or Nosler, they cost around twice as much as cup-and-core lead-core bullets, often from the same company.

Here are some examples:
Barnes TTSX 34.99/50 (The hollow-point TSX was the same price)
Hornady Interlock 27.99/100
Hornady SST 33.99/100
Hornady GMX 32.99/50 (special sale price)
Nosler Ballistic Tip 17.99/50 (special sale price)
Nosler E-Tip 35.99/50

For me, the fact that I have a few thousand cup and core bullets weighs pretty heavily in favor of continuing to shoot them. For hunting, it's unlikely I will live long enough to need any more (I'm 69). For target bullets, I buy them every year and they all have lead. GD

Compare apples to apples.

Compare cost of the bullets to cost of what you are doing.

If I want to make holes in paper that's a whole different thing than making holes in Bambi.

A quarter per bullet difference in price is nothing to me even when I put a couple hundred through a rifle solving it for that particular bullet. Most rifles can be solved inside of 50 rounds.with $1000 in a rifle and scope $30 in bullets doesn't mean anything.

Now you are offering an opinion that the difference in cost is not substantial considering other factors such as cost of weapons, etc,

But "apples to apples" fact: the cost per bullet of monometals is about twice that of CnC bullets.
.

I'd say double the cost is not a "vanished" difference.

Lead is denser so the B.C.'s are higher and the bullet will retain energy at long range better than an all copper one. I'll disagree that the all copper bullets have equaled the on game performance of lead, I think they're surpassed it. An all copper bullet will out penetrate one with lead nearly 100% of the time and the early expansion problems have been solved.

If I'm target shooting or varmint shooting then the cost comes into play when deciding what bullet to use. For big game it's a silly argument, I couldn't care less if I spend an extra $.50 a bullet for the one thing that determines whether I'm successful or not.

southtexas,

The ratio of the cost of Barnes bullets to cup-and-core bullets 20 years ago was about the same as it is today, according to the 1998 Handloader's Digest. (That was before Hornady, Nosler and other companies started making monolithics, so Barnes was the only model.) The reason is pretty simple: Even though metal prices fluctuate, copper always costs more than lead.

If you compare the cost of premium cup and cores, the bondeds, the partitions etc that are about the same.

Yes. Premium Bullets cost about twice as much as “standard” CNCs.

Don’t see your point.

Because lead-core bullets do many things well, and at a reasonable cost. Is there some point you're trying to make, or is this a straight question?

To be fair, he asked about lead in today's bullets. You are giving your opinion about why you use premium bullets. You're not answering his question.

Lead is still being used because it is cheaper, and was always used. If you go back to the days of lead balls/muzzleloaders, lead was a malleable material that would conform to the barrel with minimal effort. You stuffed lead into the barrel and it squeezed down to size.

Along came smokeless powder and bullets could be pushed considerably faster. They were already using lead, an easy to find, cheap, and soft material, but they found it couldn't handle the pressure without lead lining the barrel, so they wrapped the lead in copper alloy. Until a few years ago, when monolithic bullets started being made and used, they just kept making cup and core bullets as they always had done, since smokeless powder became the propellant of choice.

Of course, there were a few improvements over traditional cup and core, but lead still remains an easy, cheap and malleable substance to work with in the manufacturing business. They tried changing lead for other metals or methods, like sintered bullets, but for varmints, target and medium game, lead continues to be the go to material for bullet manufacturers.

Yes....there is a point to be made.

1. I envision the mono-metal bullets (lead free) as premium bullets.....not to be compared to such bullets as corelokts, power points and other standard cup and cores.....and when I look at comparing the lead free bullets to other "premiums the prices are roughly equal.....and when I consider that I typically use North Forks and A-frames for high priced hunts (elk hunts can easily run well over $6,000) the (I use Barnes) mono-metals actually cost less.

2. It is well proven (no arguments here) that entrails etc. left in the field from lead cored bullets can and do kill birds of prey such as Golden eagles and ravens etc. I have to ask if this is good for the future of hunting.

3. A North Dakota study has proven higher levels of lead in the systems of humans after eating venison based foods such as sausages and folks.....we feed this stuff to our kids as well.

I've read a very good many comments on forums such as this one and there is consensus that the killing ability of monometal bullets is as good as any others. Further, there are absolutely no formulas that deal with the physics of ballistics that uses density as a component....only weight (mass if you prefer). Many of today's finer bullets have quite large (comparatively) amounts of copper relative to lead (look at partitions, and more so the North Forks and Trophy bonded bullets from Federal (formerly Speer if I remember correctly) Yes, as one poster mentioned the twist rate of some and possibly all rifles would have to be faster to stabilize an equal weight of copper verses a cup and core bullet but all of my .308 caliber guns easily handle 180 grain Barnes bullets and thats all I need for hunting anything I want to hunt with a .30-06 or .300 magnum. Maybe Barnes also makes a 200 grain lead free 30 caliber bullet but I have no need of them so don't look for them.

For those that cast their own bullets......well, frankly, I don't know anyone that takes cast bullets on a high priced elk hunt or plains game hunt, or for that matter, even a local deer hunt.....but I'm sure there are some, yes, lead is far easier to cast than anything I can think of. You folks have my admiration. Please be careful how you dress your game and make sure you get the same meat back from the processor when you take boned out meat to them for processing. Also please bury the entrails after field dressing to protect birds of prey. I am not sure if the potential of lead poisoning also pertains to foxes, coyotes, bobcats, and other fur bearers that might scavenge on the remains left in the field......this is in the best interest to the future of hunting as I see it.

is there a point to be made?.....yup and here it is.....even if you use the traditional cup and core bullets (and they still killl deer and elk just fine) the extra cost of a lead free bullet is about a quarter.....a very small price to be paid to help safeguard the future of hunting and the health of humans that eat the venison from the hunt. (BTW I like the comment heard from Steve Hornady: "At what point in the death of the deer did the bullet fail") In my world the bullet failed when the core disconnected from the jacket.....and it's happened to me many times and that's why I went to premium bullets.....and yes I discovered it by finding in in a DEAD deer! Steve didn't miss that one at all!!!

Further there is no evidence at all that we give up anything but the possible 25 cents by switching to lead free ammo for hunting big game......and the benefits could be very large in deed.

I must say that my decision to make the switch is stranding a lot of lead core ammo that will eventually be used at the target range teaching kids and other new shooters some shooting skills and gun safety but it just makes sense to me to get with the program and start using lead free bullets for big game.

Be your own judge folks!

Thought you were going somewhere like that.

I could spend a lot of time explaining why I think your assertions, like most "settled" science, are questionable, if not outright bogus, but I'll simply say that if that's what you believe, then use the bullets that assuage your tender conscience and leave me the fugg out of it.

Also, you're a trolling dick for not just making your point in the first place, rather than posing a trick question before going on your rant. GFY.

Please provide info for the studies you reference

That's quite different than your original question quoted below.



You're either trolling, as Pappy stated, or just not very good at asking a question to elicit the information you're seeking.

It seems like you are arguing for the necessity of "premium" bullets, as defined by you and your limited understanding of how bullets work and what they're "for". You are basically saying, "I'm right about this, and there is no refutation that will change my mind." Good for you. You're free to do that, all of it. Doesn't mean you are correct, just correct for you.

I've taken cast bullets on very "expensive" hunts. As an aside, it is funny to me that people rate expense as a factor of money, the one resource we can literally get as much as we're willing to work for, rather than time, of which we all have a limited and rapidly dwindling supply, or perhaps health (or wear-and-tear), wherein we are all once again facing a dwindling supply. But to the cast bullets, they performed admirably on the dead animals, and that was a payment returned to me tenfold what I spent on them in care, labor, time, and money.

Now that you've got it all figured out, why are you bothering to seek out contrary opinions, just so you can shoot them down? Long winter getting to you too?

His "question" was just a setup so he could sit back for a bit, then start on his greenie nut-job rant. Pisses me off when these self-righteous pricks treat everyone else like we're in fuggin' kindergarten and need to be led around by the hand until we see their "light". He thought he was being so clever, but I've seen this show before.

Lead bullets work very well. Many experiended with both, who aren't grinding an axe, claim cup and core bullets usually kill quicker.

They are cheaper.


I really don't need to spend 50 cents a bullet to kill a deer with a 7mm or 30 caliber.
The couple elk I have killed, thought old lead bullets were deadly also.

It's a factor in the ballistic coefficient. Ballistic coefficient is a measured property that is affected by density as well as form factor and several other variables.

I'm a fan of Barnes TTSX's for hunting but the last thing I want is for hunters themselves to give the leftists a reason to go after lead in bullets and trolling expeditions like this just give them fuel for the fire. If you don't like lead bullets then don't shoot them, but don't try to preach to the rest of us about it. Thanks to years of leftist government encroachment you can't fart in this country without getting the EPA involved now. We're our own worst enemies sometimes.

vapodog,

I suspected that's where you were headed, but only commented on the economics of lead-cored bullets until I knew for sure.

Unlike some others here, I do believe there are concerns with lead-cored bullets, but having been researching considerably for an article assignment on lead-free bullets for over a year now, both in the field and in published studies. I'll be bringing up the same points you have, but as possibilities, not conclusions.

Have run across a lot of stuff on the North Dakota study, and it was seriously flawed, if not deliberately semi-faked. Other studies on the effect of lead-cored bullets on lead levels in hunters have been mixed; a major study in Europe found long-time hunters had LOWER lead levels than the general population. They guessed the reason involved hunters tending to be more rural than most other people, further from other, urban point-sources for lead.

There's also a "mini-study" involving my wife Eileen. Due to a medical condition, she had to have her blood thoroughly analyzed for a number of years, and the lead levels were consistently very low, despite over 90% of her meat consumption being game. However, I eventually realized that during that period, we used more and more lead-free bullets. I thought that might be a factor, but her lead levels stayed consistent during all those years. (Another factor might be that we butcher all our own game, so might trim away most areas where lead fragments would be most concentrated, especially larger fragments.)

I'd also have to note that the animals we primarily shoot with lead-free bullets are pronghorns. This is because "monolithic" bullets tend to ruin less meat, and antelope are so small we want to reduce the percentage of lost meat as much as possible--so also trim it very closely to the wound channel. As a result we're far less likely to eat lead-fragmented meat than we might with a larger animal, say an elk, where trimming away 5 pounds isn't a high percentage of the overall carcass, as it is in antelope. That said, the last two elk Eileen got were taken with Barnes TTSX's, because they do penetrate so well even in the light-recoiling cartridges she prefers since starting to become headache-sensitive to recoil about a decade ago.

Children, of course, are another matter. All the evidence suggest they're much more susceptible to lead ingestion than adults. But I haven't yet found a study on lead-levels in children who primarily eat wild big game. If you have run across such as study, I'd appreciate hearing from you, as it would help with the article.

Some of the studies on the effects of lead fragments on carrion-eaters such as eagles and raptors have also been at least somewhat biased, whether by methodology or whoever paid for the study. (I'm writing here as a wildlife biology major.) I would guess the settled science you refer to is the study done in Wyoming, where elevated levels of lead were found in ravens. They were feeding consistently on elk gut-piles
due to the Wyoming practice of winter-feeding elk in the Jackson area, which would indeed result in a higher level of lead than would occur in general hunting. Also, the study only speculated on lead-levels in eagles, but didn't list any results.

Again, if you have different information, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Lead = high density and malleable. Of course the absolute best would be depleted uranium, but availability is an issue.

John,

Thanks for doing the heavy lifting here. So much of what gets published today as "science" is bought and paid for "research" to push somebody's notion of what's right and wrong, and isn't subject to peer review or any other validity checks. Anyone with some money to throw around can get a study done to prove whatever the Hell they want.

What you said about doing your own butchering is spot on, and not only because of lead, but hair, poop, and other stuff best not contemplated. One of the regulars on Fieldsports Britain is a hardcore falconer, with eagles, gyrfalcons, as well as the usual stuff, and he's begun talking about the possible effects of lead in offal piles on birds of prey. The state of Virginia has started recommending that hunters bury their gutpiles or use lead-free. In my limited observations here, raptors seldom feed off offal unless it's located well in the open, so gutpiles in the forest shouldn't pose much of a threat regardless. I think the biggest threat to the eagles around here is being hit by another car while dining on roadkill.

I'm always open to an honest discussion, but can't stand devious bastards.

I’m no fan of having .gov tell us what to do. But if I had to choose one bullet to use it would be the TTSX. Not because I’m concerned about lead, but rather how they have performed for me on game, and how easy they have been to get to shoot well. No lead in meat is a bonus I suppose.

I've found lead core bullets to kill faster than monos, all things considered, though the monos do penetrate well. I've only killed a limited number of critters with them though.

I have no plans nor desire to move away from lead cored bullets.

Regardless if a guy is concerned about lead in meat or not, I truly believe going towards monos is a stepping stone for the antis to march on. Once lead bullets are banned they'll find a reason to ban copper bullets.

Just another left leaning closet greenie, self outing himself.

Monometal bullets with properties notably superior to copper and lead would be made of platinum or gold, or alloys of these. Exterior ballistics would be much superior to copper or lead, Gold's density equals that of uranium, but platinum's is higher. Uranium has health problems, but not gold or platinum.

--Bob

Wouldn't that be cool if they discovered an undersea continent made of gold? Prices would plummet and we'd all be "the man with the golden gun".

My point is that the copper bullets perform better than any cup and core I have experience with and still out penetrate premium cup and cores.

I like that they always make two holes. I like that they very nearly always penetrate in a very straight line. These are performance improvements I am willing to pay for.

An aside, I have not observed any tendency for a deer to run any further when I shoot them with monos. That may well be because a very high percentage of the deer I have shot with monos at ranges inside100 yards have dropped where they stood. It might just be because I am very particular about where I put bullets in deer. It might just be the data set is small enough that any effect toward increased run is masked. For instance one year I killed four that were all shoulder shots and all four dropped where they stood. Zero run. Out of less than 100 deer, four of which I would have expected to run at least some, dropping in their tracks is a result I do not necessarily believe is typical. Outliers happen. I shot a fawn with a copper .451 bullet that passed through both scapula an inch or so above the humerus joint. The only recognizable lung tissue left was about a fist size chunk of the bottom of one lung, The upper portion of the heart was gone. That one made it 50-60 yards. I don't care what you shoot 'em with, when those two pieces of tissue are all that is left in a chest full of red soup and the hole through is easily big enough that I could have run a shovel handle through you just cannot be expecting that deer to run anywhere. He just swayed back a little when it hit and then took off. My experience is that if they run, 25-30 yards is fairly typical and the longest run of any I have shot with a mono is about 70 yards on a deer with damage remarkably similar to the fawn. My numbers statistically will not mean so much since I shoot deer with a lot of different rifles in a lot of calibers. But... I shoot monos in everything and do not see enough difference between calibers with them that I would even consider hazarding a guess as to what caliber a deer was shot with if it was a mono. The holes look the same to me.

I have said it before and stand by it. Today's monos are far and away the best bullets I have had to reload with since I started in 1956. That doesn't mean that the best of the premium bonded cup and cores are not better than most of what I have had in the past, nor that they are not acceptably close to the monos in performance. That said, with the monos performance at that level I see no reason whatsoever to shoot deer with anything but copper. I still shoot more cup and cores than anything else, but that's for making holes in paper and varmints. I have done my time shooting deer with bullets nowhere near this good and have no need to go back.

Oh! I also settled on monos in my .357 and in my .40 S&W. I did a lot of testing, and the penetration with those 125 grain bullets is there, the low velocity expansion is there. and even with that big ass hollow point they hold together at max velocity quite nicely.

Britt Ekland; now that was a little yummy!

Miles I have not noticed anything going farther when shot with mono’s in fact with around a hundred head shot by myself and others that I’ve observed went down very quickly.

Yeah, Between what I have killed and what those whose rifles I solved for monos have killed, it's at just over 100. I have examined almost all of them. We have one guy who is less careful about bullet placement than I am, and he alone probably will make the average run distance go up a little since I know of three gut shot and one shot in the knee that traveled pretty far before we caught up with them. I did not keep detailed records with measurements on all the deer. Some of the group are like my son and just put them all down with zero run. I have always tended toward putting the bullet just under the skull to clip the brain stem on deer inside fifty yards, which over the years has probably averaged out to close to one out of three. Like I said above though, shooting them with 6-8 different calibers makes numbers kind of meaningless.if you accept conventional wisdom that a 30-06 will "kill 'em better" than a .223. Something I do not believe is true with a mono until you get to the margins of their effective range/velocity. Since this is the 'fire...By that I mean a .223 somewhere past 200 yards with a <60 grains mono is going to be running out of steam. A bigger round will give you another hundred yards or more in my opinion.which should show up in the wound.

No, Steve didn't miss that one at all but you sure did when you twisted what he said to fit your own concept of "bullet failure." Core separation is not what he meant by "bullet failure" with a dead deer at his feet.

I have not tried any other metal to cast bullets with... Except, antimony, tin added to lead.

Cast bullets work very well, especially in handguns but also in less than 2,000 fps rifle loads.

I'll have to ask, why would you want anything but lead in your 44 special, mag, 45 Colt, 38 special, or 357 Mag. Or almost any other straight walled cartridge.

I wouldn't think of shooting anything but lead or perhaps a lead alloy in my 45-70 or my 45-90. Mostly the same is true with other lever guns.

Finally, shooting is a lot of fun. If a person would shoot quite a few rounds a day the only cash conscious way would be with cast bullets.

My question is: "Why would anyone shoot copper or copper clad bullets when cast works just as well, maybe better in many cartridges?"

Miles. I’m glad you are happy with your monos. I have tried them, and for my purposes they have performed no better, sometimes, worse, a than standard bullets that cost half as much. So for me, at least, the cost difference hasn’t vanished.

Miles, In agreement with your assessment! We have used monobullets exclusively since early ‘90’s. They’ve “only” improved over the years. Cup and core certainly have their place, but for us ...... “if it’s big game, it’s mono’s”! Cup and core for, paper, varmints, etc. and plinking.... of course “cast” Bullets would work for that as well! memtb

I did a quick comparison between ballistic coefficients using many popular .308 caliber bullets with weights ranging from 175 to 180 grains.

Barnes TTSX..................484
Nosler accubond............507
Federal trophy bonded.....not listed
Sierra game king............501
Hornady SST..................480
Remington core-lokt........not listed
Hornady interlock............425
Swift a-frame...................400
Nosler partition..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,361........(possibly the most polular of all premium bullets)
Speer spritzer boat tail.....540
Hornady ELD...................271
Barnes LRX tipped...........508
For those that may not understand that number.....the higher the number, the better the bullet will retain velocity at any given range or....the higher the number, the less velocity loss will be incurred by the bullet at a given range. This translates to higher energy levels at long distances.....

Data direct from Midwayusa.com

I have no idea what the point is of posting the BCs of several Bullets. But you’re certainly following your own advice of keeping it on track.

And I find it interesting that for the 180 gr Partition you cherrypicked the BC of the protected point rather than the standard 180partition which has a BC of .474. Another example of fake news..?

And the Hornady ELD has a BC of somewhere around.550,depending on which bullet. It’s certainly not .271!

The ELD BC # is a G7, as opposed to the G1 of the others.

You've mixed a G7 in with the G1's and your subset accidentally missed the higher bc Nosler ABLR's and Hornady ELD-X's. Amongst hunting bullets a better comparison might be:
Barnes .308
200 gr - .423 (TSX)
200 gr - .546 (LRX)

Nosler ABLR .308
190 gr - .597
210 gr - .661

Hornady ELD-X .308
200 gr - .597
212 gr - .673

To answer your original question. For me, monometal bullets don't perform as well as bullets containing lead. That doesn't mean that they won't work but for me they don't work as well.

As an aside I find it amusing that someone with a screen name of vapodog would be worried about lead poisoning.

Not that I care one wit for the outcome of anyone's decision along these lines, but your information is misstated.

The Nosler you list is the Protected Point, and while a fine bullet, I do not think it nearly as popular as their 180 grain Spitzer.

The 180 Nosler Spitzer b.c. is listed as .474.

The Hornady ELD you list is probably the 178 grain ELD-X and you've listed the G7 b.c. not the G1 as you did for the other bullets. The G1 b.c. for the ELD-X is .535.

I did not review all of the numbers you provided, but these are two that jumped at me as misleading.

Comparing BCs of monos to lead core bullets???? Anyone who's used them much figure out in a hurry that using the much lighter monos results in much better performance because of the speed. A 130 grain monoonce it connects with Bambi will outperform a 180 cup and core. With the vast majority of deer being killed at inside 100 yards, let alone 300 yards where BC just begins to make a difference, it's a fools argument either way.

In all the years I have been killing deer I haven't yet found the need to shoot one past 300. I have looked at then out there, I have considered it. I have gone so far as to set up several rifles to be capable of it. But... when I can more or less pick and choose which deer I want it just hasn't come down to being any kind of necessary, and they get a lot harder to identify way out there. Light fast monos work better. Heavy slow monos do not. Heavy for caliber monos need magnums to take advantage of what they have to offer, and even with the mags you need a lot of gun to get close to their upper limits. Like I said earlier in this thread, if I decide to kill one way out there it will most likely be with a soft cup and core. I like as much insurance as I can get.

Agreed. There is no doubt in my mind that a 120 TTSX fired from my 6.5x284 or 260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor will, when impacting within 500 yards, penetrate every bit as much if not more than the same impact from a 180 Nosler Partition fired from a .30-06 or even a 300 Win Mag or WSM.

I posted the BC data as a reference to an earlier post that "density" plays a role in BC....I posted the data as they came up on Midwayusa website....no cherry picking here at all.....if the Nosler protected point isn't applicable for reference then so be it.....In particular I wanted to show the difference between the Barnes TTSX and the Swift A-Frame. The A-Frame has been my go to bullet for some time....until I discovered how good the Accubonds are. The A-Frames were the bullets I took on both of my safaris to RSA....not for their BC but for the terminal performance they can deliver.....and I'm going to miss them a lot . But after reading countless posts about the terminal performance of the TTSX bullets, I'm not at all concerned about the change.

Or to put it another way.....BC isn't at all the deciding criteria for picking the bullet we might wind up shooting.....and in most cases it isn't a secret....the BC is available (usually)

Eventually, when it's all boiled down the purpose of lead in the manufacture of big game bullets is non existant....it serves no purpose at all. And for me when I consider my usual bullet selection of A-Frames and/or accubonds, the cost is quite similar and much less than A-Frames.

My last years harvest was two cow elk and six deer...all of which has been turned into hot dogs, polish sausage, summer sausage, and Salami.....and a bunch of this is being consumed by six kids under 10 years of age.....further it is quite possible that one of the elk I shot resulted in the death of a golden eagle as the accubond I recovered from the carcass weighed 61 grains less than the 180 it weighed originally. The eagle was later found nearby and taken to a Raptor center in Santa Fe, New Mexico where it died.....and upon examination, it was confirmed that the cause of death was lead poisoning.

That rancher asked me If I would use lead free ammo next year and I said yes....I can see no reason not to. That ranch and several adjoining it have decided to impose lead free hunting as a requirement. This is not at all a government mandate....it's coming from the folks that own the land I hunt on.....

You folks feed anything you want to your kids and grandkids.....and deal with local ranchers in the way that serves you best.....I'll do the same.

Could have just said, "Nuff said!".

vapodog,

Thanks for the details.

One of the ranches where I shoot prairie dogs in Montana also requires lead-free bullets, for the same reason as the ranch where you hunted. That's one reason I've been using lead-free varmint bullets for a while now. Lead-free is going to be more common in the future, whether due to legal or landowner requirements. I noticed in one of your recent posts that you're using lead-core bullets for prairie dog shooting, because you have a large supply. You might consider switching to lead-free bullets there too, as a lot of scavenging birds show up as soon as they hear shots on PD towns.

One technical point about your ballistic coefficient comparison: The BC similarity for bullets over 180 grains disappears, because heavy monolithic bullets are so much longer they won't stabilize even in some rifling twists considered "fast" these days. That's why Barnes doesn't make, say, a 210-grain .30 caliber TTSX. While BC is unimportant to you and Miles, it is to some other shooters--including target shooters, who use far more bullets than big game hunters.

One other minor point: Are you taking your big game to commercial processors to be turned into various kinds of sausage? If so, they're probably using chemicals you might not want to feed your children. Which is one reason my wife and I make all our own sausage (including hot dogs), as well as jerky.

vapodog--

I believe I am familiar with the rancher as he is a colleague and I have traded some info with him on this subject elsewhere. He recommended sharing his blog post on the subject where it might do some good, so I am posting the link http://horsesidevetguide.com/Save+Golden+Eagles+with+Lead+Free+Bullets

I appreciate your concern and respect for the rancher's wishes and the species involved.

Mule Deer, I appreciate your info.....and for the record, I haven't shot prairie dogs for several years....and yes.....I remember hawks and even burrowing owls helping to clean up a dog town....even as I (we) were still shooting. Should I get to do some more Pdog shooting, I'll certainly find some 22 cal and 6mm cal monometals.

As to the issue of meat processing, I and my hunting friends are actually buying grinders, mixers, stuffers, and the rest of the works to process our own sausage.....mostly we reasoned that we have no idea if were getting the same meat back that we boned out and delivered to the processor. The idea that we might be getting chemicals in the meat from the processor never occurred t us....but the process of doing it ourselves is certainly under way.

Could be an issue depending on the game/critters being hunted.

How?

For the guys wanting to minimize pelt damage 1 hole is preferred.

Ricochets for the guy shooting prarie dogs.

I do a little coyote hunting around quite a few cattle and like how lead bullets pretty much lose all of their weight to minimize pass throughs and ricochets.

Show me a mono that won't skip to the next county after shooting through a coyote, fox or cat.

Well, first off coyotes don't need much killing and shooting them with a mono suitable for deer makes no sense on any level.

Second there are monos that won't make two holes. Nosler and Barnes make all copper bullets that do an excellent job of coming undone when they hit anything.

A little common sense applied to this goes a very long way to eliminating ricochets. I can understand wanting to keep lead out of the environment. I do not see it as a problem in most varmint hunting situations. Prairie dogs could be a problem, but I never met anyone who shot them with premium lead free bullets, and at that most towns can be approached to have a mile behind them that's clear and I wouldn't shoot a town with less free space behind it. Shooting toward a house even a long way away gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Is the heebie jeebies curable?

Yes, but the holier-than-thouitis is incurable.

Nothing a donation to the Clinton Foundation couldn't cure.

I shoot mostly 35 grain VMaxs which are Hornet bullets for small varmints using my .223 with Blue Dot. At 3200 FPS they come undone well enough that they usually won't touch a piece of wood a foot behind a chipmunk. Even something that fragile bothers me more than I can handle even if the building I can see in the scope is miles away. If those VMaxs hit the ground they are gone I don't know how close to coming undone they are at that speed out of a 9 twist, but I do know I can easily push them past that point, it's somewhere under 4100.

True.

Right, shooting coyotes w a premium makes no sense at all but question is, why any lead in bullets at all??

Didn't realize the lead free Nosler bullets were actually a powdered copper core.

Wonder how they will penetrate bones on larger varmints?

Personally, I like my recovered bullet collection, so two holes isn't real desirable to me. I haven't found critters go any further after the shot with one hole vs two anyhow, so to me that's a wash. I have found normal C&C bullets to perform better than any mono on critters, at any speed, though the monos have performed just fine in a general sense (with two notable exceptions).

As far as lead in the environment, from what I understand it is industrial processes putting processed forms of it in the air and water that is an issue---not solid chunks in the ground. There's lots and lots of lead naturally in the soils (which is why lead is so cheap to mine) though I think it normally is combined with sulfur---but regardless we're just practicing reclamation by shooting lead bullets in my mind.

I have zero plans to move away from lead bullets myself, but to each his own...

The one thing the "science" never tries to explain is why California Condors seem to have a large incidence of lead poisoning, even though lead has been outlawed in California for years. I saw a "documentary" on them just the other day and they blamed deer hunters for the poisoning, even though it was eight months from last season and even though those deer hunters were required to use lead-free bullets.

Same thing with bald eagles living in remote areas where no hunting occurs. Plus, it is very rare for a bald to dine on carrion, as they are fish eaters by nature. When one scientist was asked why deer hunters were blamed for lead being found in fish-eating birds that live nowhere near an area of hunting, he blamed "lead sinkers" from fisherman. This was in the ocean.

It is a political agenda, for sure. It may or may not happen, but plenty of other critters are coming up with lead issues where hunting couldn't possibly be making an impact.

Also, what about magpies? Any lead poisoning being found there? They are the number one carrion eaters in may places.

Man, ain't that the truth around here!

Not around here. It's pretty common to see them dining on a woodchuck or deer carcass out in a field.

Here in NW MT. the only critters I see bald eagles feeding on are ungulate carcasses so it is a possible vector during hunting season I suppose but there needs to be a lot more data from a larger cross section of the country related to lead poisoning and hunting bullets before I were to take a side on the issue. Like T Inman said, there are natural and man made sources other than firearms hunting that could/can be a source for eagles dying. As bad as it is being described, eagle numbers and most other birds of prey are on the rise through better conservation measures.

Back in the day guv sponsored poison bate traps for coyotes and high power lines killed more eagles than just about anything else, nefarious hunting included.

3 years ago I killed a coyote one morning and left him lay. A few days later a pair of bald eagles were dining on him. I don't even think a buzzard will eat a coyote.

Near deer camp if a gut pile is in/on a field it is only a matter of a few hours at most before the eagles are on it. They do not seem to like getting into thick brush for gut piles, and the coyotes usually get those before they do. More open mature woods,it's a tossup whether the eagles or coyotes will get there first. Those eagles move inland from the St Croix River mainly (about 10-15 miles) and set up housekeeping well away from lakes and rivers just before deer season and stay through November. Like crows and ravens, they sometimes respond to the gun shots and will be in the trees around a field waiting for the gut pile while you are gutting Bambi.

Crows, Ravens, magpies, Jays, woodpeckers and chickadees all get lead from gut piles.

vapodog,

I know somebody who wrote a comprehensive sausage-making book that explains how, without using the usual chemicals. Have been married to her now for 35 years. You can find it on www.riflesandrecipes.com.

Thanks John......I just ordered the recipe book.....I'm sure it's as good as you say.....you're quite a salesman too.....LOL

Vapodog, you just fell for the oldest trick on the internet. The ol' "get into an argument with a guy then get him to buy your book" routine. Works every time.

Strange......I never thought John and I was having an argument.....hey.....want to buy a good recipe book?

Haha. I couldn't take your book. Sounds like you've invested heavily in the sausage project and without that recipe book, you'll be flyin' blind.

I've driven the I-90/I-25 corridor between Montana to Denver up to every month from November to April for the past 40+ years. It is rare that I don't see at least one and up to 15 bald eagles either standing on or next to road killed deer and antelope or standing on fence posts nest to those road kills.

I see these birds almost every day around my home. There is also an occupied Red Tailed hawk nest in a cottonwood tree below my house and I often see golden and bald eagles hunting on the hill behind me. Over the years I've killed 5 elk and about that many each deer and coyotes on my place. Two of the elk were killed with Barnes bullets, all the rest were shot with regular copper cup and lead core bullets. I gutted all of the animals where they fell and left the gut piles there.

The only dead birds that I have ever found on my place were the ones that flew into the picture windows of my house and broke their necks.

I have a very hard time believing that only the one bullet that killed an elk would also be the cause of death of an eagle that was later found dead on a New Mexico ranch.

I live in Alaska and hardly go a day with out seeing a Bald eagle, unless I stay in the house. As "Teddy" supposedly said, 'they are fish eating buzzards". If you doubt that then go to Haines or any salmon stream in the fall.

Years ago I shot a grey wolf and a caribou and had the two remains by each other about 1,000 yards from my wall tent. Every morning I would creep out and look for the grizzly. The only thing I ever saw on the pile were Bald eagles, magpies, ravens and a fox. The darn grizzly and wolverines were to smart to come out on the open river bed and feast.

Eagles that I have seen are opportunists which is why they hang around streams. Not just for fish, but because all animals drink and predators know this and ambush them. For several months there was a "spy cam" in a Bald eagles nest on the Kenai. Every one tuned into it and "mom" was a good hunter. Fish, grouse seagulls, bunnies, etc. the kids ate it all and ate well, then like kids should do, they left the nest!

I realize Alaska has more eagles and fewer hunters then most places. I also don't know why they would die from lead poisoning like they supposedly do in the "lower 48". This I do know, I don't trust any self serving politically motivated liberal tree hugging snow flake when it comes to doing a study and putting forth reliable and truthful information.

On my trip to SE Alaska, I saw more bald eagles than I could count. Some folks refer to them as glorified seagulls. Even locally, I've counted as many as 60 sitting on the ice of local reservoirs..... On my fishing trips to Canada I see quite a few of them.....(Ontario mostly)....there can be no question as to the numbers of Bald Eagles...they are everywhere streams or lakes allow.

Hey Mule Deer....I got my recipe book of sausages today....it seems to be a very well done publication. Thank you for recommending it.

I decided a few years ago to only shoot things I intended on eatiing with mono bullets. Wish I didnt have to, as I dont think they are a better mouse trap, but it is what it is.

vapodog,

Glad your first impressions of the sausage book are positive. If you run into any difficulties, you can contact Eileen through website info. She often "consults" with readers.