24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 9 of 11 1 2 7 8 9 10 11
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Rick,

I know this Barsness guy! He says you're obsessing over muzzle velocity and flat trajectory again. As he pointed out earlier, a few inches in trajectory is almost irrelevant these days--though he has to mention it in articles because of the obsessions of so many readers.

It's much like having to mention W.D.M. Bell killed lots of elephants with the 7x57 in every 7x57 article: Readers expect it, and if an author fails to mention elephants, they'll write to the editor, pointing the elephants out. Flat trajectory is similar to elephants: If it's not mentioned, editors are deluged with e-mails and even a few snail-mails. In fact, you might be surprised by the number of gun-magazine readers who still use snail-mail, especially those who obsess about muzzle velocity, flat trajectory, and elephants shot with 7x57's.

But Barsness understands those obsessions, partly because he often got phone calls from your old friend Stu. He also obsessed about getting 3000 fps--though not with 150-grain bullets in the .270, but 165's in the .30-06. They had several hour-long conversations about what Stu called, "All those zeroes!" At one point Barsness suggested just installing a 26-inch barrel, but of course Stu felt that wasn't acceptable. Barsness even got the feeling Stu believed it would be cheating. Congratulations for carrying on his tradition.

Barsness also wants you to know that 2850 fps works extremely well with 150-grain bullets in the .270, despite not shooting quite as flat as "all those zeroes." He's seen a bunch of big game killed with 150's at 2850, including the bull moose his wife killed with a single Partition. Lung-shot moose often stand around as if thinking it over, but that one took a single step and folded up dead. He's also seen a number of elk and similar-sized African plains game shot with the 150 Partition at around 2850, and the farthest any has gone before falling was about 50 yards--a gemsbok bull, considered by many hunters as tough as they come.

He also said it's good thing you have the sense to quit hunting when the wind blows, as .270 bullets drift like dandelion seeds in the mildest breeze. It was good a thing the bull moose his wife killed was only 125 yards away, and early in the morning when there wasn't much breeze. Otherwise the bullet might have missed completely.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
BP-B2

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,731
S
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,731
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
In fact, you might be surprised by the number of gun-magazine readers who still use snail-mail, especially those who obsess about muzzle velocity, flat trajectory, and elephants shot with 7x57's.



LOL!



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822
A
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
A
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822
Originally Posted by RinB
...I don’t know if I am obsessed or possessed...


I believe that covers most of the folks posting here, including yours truly. grin

I have a question and a couple of observations.

Rick, what is/are the reason/s behind your dislike of the M-16/Sako type extractors? Not trying to pick a fight or start an argument, I'd just like to get the benefit of your experience. You've obviously built more rifles than I have, which gives you more insight, and I love to learn.

I am very grateful for all of the information you gentlemen have shared here and on other threads. My first centerfire rifle was a Win Mod 70 in .270W I bought the day after I turned 18. I carried that rifle as my big game rifle in Alaska for 11 years until I got myself in a situation where I needed more gun, so I went to a .338WM for the following 23 years.

John, thank you for your input and your observations. Given the formula as outlined, I can now take my .30-06 as my "DGR", a .243AI as my medium rifle and a .223 Rem. for everything else. wink laugh

And, joining in the choir, I also miss Bob. I never spoke with him, but always enjoyed his posts.

Ed


"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell



Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,464
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,464
APDFSNO864
My goodness that is a long moniker.

I have had too many malfunctions with M16 and Sako extractors. The problems are not limited to conversions of M700’s. Bolts supposedly made for those extractors, by rotating the ejector position on the bolt face, are just as bad.

It goes like this, open the bolt to eject fired case, case hits scope tube or turrets, case bounces back into action loading port, often backwards, action jams. I have had this happen at the worst possible times.

Never an issue with the original M700 extractor which tosses cases directly to the side. Likewise the sliding plate extractor on M70 push feed actions and offered by BAT side ejects.

I like Surgeon actions because they can be had with original M700 extractor plus are really well made.
Pretty hard to beat original M700 too.

Last edited by RinB; 02/19/18.


“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,464
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,464
Mule Deer,
I am mis-informed. My pal Scotty Beretz ran some loads thru his 6.5 Creedmore today. He did this because he has been following our discussion. Anyhow, he sent to me the figures, 127-129 bullets, R17, 2950 in, I believe, a 22”. Pretty darn good! I stand corrected.

Please give my regards to Mrs Barsness when next you see her.
Rick



“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
IC B2

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,262
B
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,262
I was fairly impressed when I ran the numbers on the load myself. The 127 LRX with the .468 (Going off memory) started at 2950 has about 2000 FPS and 1200 Ftlbs at 500 yards. The 129 ABLR (.561) started at 2950 holds 2000 FPS and 1200 FtLb's out to 600 yards. I will say that is pretty danged good looking for about 42.5 grains of powder. I am not sure how well the LRX's expand at 2000, but I'd assume they must be decent with the tip in them. I know the ABLR's open up fine at 2000 FPS though. Pretty deadly little combo.


Semper Fi
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
In fact, you might be surprised by the number of gun-magazine readers who still use snail-mail, especially those who obsess about muzzle velocity, flat trajectory, and elephants shot with 7x57's.

LOL!


ONE more comment - snail mail still works; it could apply to SLOW bullets laugh

Jerry


jwall- *** 3100 guy***

A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap

Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
RinB,

Thanks for the Creedmoor news.

It's an interesting little cartridge. My first was a Ruger Hawkeye with a 26-inch barrel. Not only did its very first 5-shot group at 100 yards (without the benefit of any barrel "break-in") measure .63 inch, but was shot with Hornady 140-grain A-Max factory ammo on a moderately gusty day. That was in 2010.

There wasn't as much published data around back then, or as many new wonder-powders, but Ramshot Hunter looked like it had real potential. With Ramshot's listed max charges, the 120-grain Ballistic Tip with got 3094 fps, and 140 Berger VLD's 2845, both with excellent accuracy. (In case somebody suspects my chronograph might have been faulty, it was an Oehler 35P that showed right-on velocities from other rifles that day.)

Another interesting thing about the Creedmoor is the SAAMI maximum average pressure is 62,000 PSI, somewhat mild compared to the 65,000 PSI for a number of other rounds. Some people complain about Hornady brass being "soft" because primer pockets open up, but when I've asked what loads they're using, they're always well above listed maximums. (Apparently the fixation on muzzle velocity is just about universal.) I still have some of the Hornady brass from 2010, and primer pockets are still tight.

I ended up selling that rifle, but have owned a couple other 6.5 Creedmoors since, and thoroughly tested a couple of others for articles, one a Savage and the other a Fierce. The WORST shooting rifle of any was one of the others I owned, an inexpensive factory sporter, and it's first 5-shot group at 100 yards was still under an inch.

My present 6.5 Creedmoor is a Ruger American Predator, purchased slightly used off the Campfire Classifieds for $350. I was fresh out of Hornady factories when it showed up, so loaded up a popular Creedmoor accuracy combo, 41.5 grains of H4350 with 140-grain Berger VLD's. After getting one shot on paper at 100 yards, I fired four more, which all basically went into the same hole, the 5-shot group measuring .33 inch.

Will give your regards to Ms. Clarke!


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822
A
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
A
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822
Originally Posted by RinB
APDFSNO864 My goodness that is a long moniker.
I have had too many malfunctions with M16 and Sako extractors. The problems are not limited to conversions of M700’s. Bolts supposedly made for those extractors, by rotating the ejector position on the bolt face, are just as bad....


Rick,

My moniker is a passcode to my former work identity. Any present or prior Anchorage Police Department employee or criminal justice system employee in Alaska could figure out who I was just with that designator.

Most folks call me "Ed", although I've been called many other things, and have even been re-named here as "Edtoomanyletters". grin

Thanks for the ejector info. Makes perfect sense. If it works, don't fix it.

Ed


"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell



Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Originally Posted by beretzs
I was fairly impressed when I ran the numbers on the load myself. The 127 LRX with the .468 (Going off memory) started at 2950 has about 2000 FPS and 1200 Ftlbs at 500 yards. The 129 ABLR (.561) started at 2950 holds 2000 FPS and 1200 FtLb's out to 600 yards. I will say that is pretty danged good looking for about 42.5 grains of powder. I am not sure how well the LRX's expand at 2000, but I'd assume they must be decent with the tip in them. I know the ABLR's open up fine at 2000 FPS though. Pretty deadly little combo.


Alright now, y'all just STOP it right there! ! 2950 is just TOO CLOSE to my accepted minimum speed. whistle

But it's still using ODD ball , 127 & or 129 bullets.

And its name is still Creedmoor, or creedmore, or creedmare - summin like at! grin


Yes, I can learn or BE taught.....even tho I don't like it. laugh

Jerry

Last edited by jwall; 02/20/18.

jwall- *** 3100 guy***

A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap

Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
IC B3

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
beretz,

I should have mentioned that when the LRX designed appeared, my friends at Barnes informed me the copper was annealed to be softer, as I recall just in the front end, so they'd expand easier at longer ranges.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,262
B
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,262
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
beretz,

I should have mentioned that when the LRX designed appeared, my friends at Barnes informed me the copper was annealed to be softer, as I recall just in the front end, so they'd expand easier at longer ranges.


Thanks for the heads up. I’d bet that doesn’t hurt to keep the petals from shearing away either. I haven’t put them on paper yet but they look like they could be a great Bullet in that little case.


Semper Fi
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,262
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,262
Originally Posted by beretzs
I was fairly impressed when I ran the numbers on the load myself. The 127 LRX with the .468 (Going off memory) started at 2950 has about 2000 FPS and 1200 Ftlbs at 500 yards. The 129 ABLR (.561) started at 2950 holds 2000 FPS and 1200 FtLb's out to 600 yards. I will say that is pretty danged good looking for about 42.5 grains of powder. I am not sure how well the LRX's expand at 2000, but I'd assume they must be decent with the tip in them. I know the ABLR's open up fine at 2000 FPS though. Pretty deadly little combo.

I am getting right about the same numbers you are out of my 6.5 Creedmoor using the 127 LRX. According to someone I talked with at Barnes, the LRX should be GTG down to at least 1800, making this a legit 600+ yard load. Since I have never shot an elk (or a deer) at anywhere near that distance, I am thinking this LRX might be the cat's azz in the Creedmoor, as it has been easy to good accuracy and the velocity speaks for itself. I trust the Barnes bullet to penetrate as well as or better than anything once it arrives on target.

The elk are not going to be happy with these developments, at all. >>grin


What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
beretz,

I dunno if the softer front end helps keep petals from shearing away, but then I don't really care if they do, as have never noticed any difference in how TSX's kill whether they have petals or not. The big cow elk Eileen shot last fall is a good example. The range was about 250 yards, the bullet a 130 TTSX from her .308. The cow stood quartering toward us, and Eileen put the bullet in the shoulder, just above the big joint. The cow staggered about 25 yards and went down, and we found the bullet under the hide in the middle of the ribs on the far side, having lost all its petals, as TSX's often do when they hit larger bone.

Though we did find one of the detached petals in the rib meat on the edge of the exit hole. Have found a few of exit-hole petals over the years too, not just from TSX's but Fail Safes and E-Tips, indicating the petal stayed attached during the bullet's travels through the animal.

In fact the original X-Bullets often sheared their petals, which Randy Brooks thought that might help create a larger wound channel. But when people started complaining when the petals sheared, he tweaked the bullets so they wouldn't, at least not as much. He told me this around a campfire during a mule deer hunt in Old Mexico a while back, saying he'd rather have happy customers than worry about whether the petals stayed intact or not.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,262
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,262
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
beretz,

I dunno if the softer front end helps keep petals from shearing away, but then I don't really care if they do, as have never noticed any difference in how TSX's kill whether they have petals or not. The big cow elk Eileen shot last fall is a good example. The range was about 250 yards, the bullet a 130 TTSX from her .308. The cow stood quartering toward us, and Eileen put the bullet in the shoulder, just above the big joint. The cow staggered about 25 yards and went down, and we found the bullet under the hide in the middle of the ribs on the far side, having lost all its petals, as TSX's often do when they hit larger bone.

Though we did find one of the detached petals in the rib meat on the edge of the exit hole. Have found a few of exit-hole petals over the years too, not just from TSX's but Fail Safes and E-Tips, indicating the petal stayed attached during the bullet's travels through the animal.

In fact the original X-Bullets often sheared their petals, which Randy Brooks thought that might help create a larger wound channel. But when people started complaining when the petals sheared, he tweaked the bullets so they wouldn't, at least not as much. He told me this around a campfire during a mule deer hunt in Old Mexico a while back, saying he'd rather have happy customers than worry about whether the petals stayed intact or not.

That’s a great story. Thanks, John.


What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,363
3
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
3
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,363
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
RinB,

Thanks for the Creedmoor news.

It's an interesting little cartridge. My first was a Ruger Hawkeye with a 26-inch barrel. Not only did its very first 5-shot group at 100 yards (without the benefit of any barrel "break-in") measure .63 inch, but was shot with Hornady 140-grain A-Max factory ammo on a moderately gusty day. That was in 2010.

There wasn't as much published data around back then, or as many new wonder-powders, but Ramshot Hunter looked like it had real potential. With Ramshot's listed max charges, the 120-grain Ballistic Tip with got 3094 fps, and 140 Berger VLD's 2845, both with excellent accuracy. (In case somebody suspects my chronograph might have been faulty, it was an Oehler 35P that showed right-on velocities from other rifles that day.)

Another interesting thing about the Creedmoor is the SAAMI maximum average pressure is 62,000 PSI, somewhat mild compared to the 65,000 PSI for a number of other rounds. Some people complain about Hornady brass being "soft" because primer pockets open up, but when I've asked what loads they're using, they're always well above listed maximums. (Apparently the fixation on muzzle velocity is just about universal.) I still have some of the Hornady brass from 2010, and primer pockets are still tight.

I ended up selling that rifle, but have owned a couple other 6.5 Creedmoors since, and thoroughly tested a couple of others for articles, one a Savage and the other a Fierce. The WORST shooting rifle of any was one of the others I owned, an inexpensive factory sporter, and it's first 5-shot group at 100 yards was still under an inch.

My present 6.5 Creedmoor is a Ruger American Predator, purchased slightly used off the Campfire Classifieds for $350. I was fresh out of Hornady factories when it showed up, so loaded up a popular Creedmoor accuracy combo, 41.5 grains of H4350 with 140-grain Berger VLD's. After getting one shot on paper at 100 yards, I fired four more, which all basically went into the same hole, the 5-shot group measuring .33 inch.

Will give your regards to Ms. Clarke!


Yes, but will it shoot "Minute of Elephant" ? wink

Virtually the same as the 6.5 x 55 , another noted slayer of Pachyderms. The CM of course is designed to fit in a Short Action magazine.


History May Not Repeat, But it Rhymes.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
338Rules,

Actually, the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer was the "noted slayer of Pachyderms," not the 6.5x55, due to one of W.D.M. Bell's favorite rifles being a customized M-S 1903 carbine. He called the ".256," because at that time the British often applied their names to European cartridges, the reason there's a .275 Rigby (7x57).

The 6.5x54 cartridge is even smaller than the 6.5 Creedmoor, at least in head-size and powder capacity, though it's slightly longer.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 102
D
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
D
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 102
Is it OK if I continue to hunt successfully with my 7x57 using 139-140 bullets traveling at about 2850 fps?

Last edited by Desertranger; 02/21/18.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Originally Posted by Desertranger
Is it OK if continue to hunt successfully with my 7x57 using 139-140 bullets traveling at about 2900 fps?


Yes, IF you can be happy hunting with a ‘middle of the roader’ — tweener ! whistle
grin grini

Jerry


jwall- *** 3100 guy***

A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap

Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Desertranger,

Is it OK if other people hunt successfully with other cartridges? Is it OK if they discuss them?



“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Page 9 of 11 1 2 7 8 9 10 11

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
127 members (257 mag, 6mmCreedmoor, 160user, 35, 6mmbrfan, 10Glocks, 14 invisible), 1,805 guests, and 809 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,728
Posts18,400,776
Members73,822
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.094s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9225 MB (Peak: 1.1052 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 09:46:52 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS