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I am invited to hunt in Colorado this year during black powder season. As I understand it, I cannot use optical sights or sabot bullets - lead only. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have three black powder guns - a 50 caliber T/C Renegade, a 50 caliber Knight Vision inline with scope, and a 54 caliber kit gun given to me. I figure on taking the T/C. Since the trigger is horrible, I have ordered a double set trigger for it, as well as some T/C lead bullets.

The Knight has no iron sights, so if I wanted to take it I would have to buy them. I have only shot it with Triple Seven pellets and sabots, never with Maxi balls or other similar projectiles. T/C does not recommend using Triple Seven or Blackhorn 209 in the Renegade, probably because they is harder to ignite than black powder or Pyrodex.

I don't like the 54 caliber as it has a nasty curved metal butt plate which looks like it will hurt me when I fire it. I'm on blood thinners, so that's not good.

My questions:

What loads do you recommend for the Renegade - bullets and powder? What are the regulations for black powder other than what I mentioned?

Thanks for any help.


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What's the twist rate on the Renegade? If it's a round-ball shooter you're out of luck because one of the new regs this year is that .50 caliber round balls are no longer legal. .50 caliber conicals are legal.

Bullets have to be full bore-sized (no sabots) but are not restricted to lead. You can use copper plated (Powerbelts) or solid copper (Thor bullets). Scopes are illegal, but fiber optics are legal.

Here's a link to another thread on elk loads that should give you an idea of what others are shooting:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...2629702/1/colorado-muzzleloader-elk-load

ETA, I just looked it up, it appears they have a 1:48? IN my .50 caliber Hawken, the 385 grain hollow point and 410 grain flat point Hornady great plains bullets shoot well with around 80 grains of powder.



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Thanks for the reply. Yes, the twist is 1 in 48". I know round balls are illegal under 54 caliber. I bought some Power Belts yesterday at a store in NY State, the closest one that sells ammo, and i have some T/C lead bullets on order.

By the way, where in Colorado are you? My buddy is in Elizabeth, south of Denver. That's who gave me the invite.


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Denver metro area, to the south. But I won't be here during the ML season!!



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If I don't use my 54 roundball shooter, I think I would like to see what these are about.

http://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/product/50-caliber-420-grains/

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My 50 cal Cabela's Hawken has a 1 in 48" twist and have always had excellent results with Hornady 385gr HB-HP 's on top of 70gr of fffg Goex.

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30338: Far be it from me to rain on anybody's parade but I would want a larger meplat than a Keith style SWC nose profile.

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Meplats kill elk?



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Man up and take the .54. Black powder guns don't have a sharp recoil, more like a push.

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I hunted Colorado antelope this past September. Used my TC Renegade .54. Used the same load as for elk. 110 grains of Pyrodex (equivalent) and a home cast TC Maxibullet. 430 gr. Shoots 3" groups at 100 yards.

I shoot a lot of lever action silhouette, so i used the same type of sights. A Lyman 17A front with a fiberoptic insert. And a peep tang sight on the rear. Accuracy is good to 200 yards. Zero at 100 and mark the peep for 150 and 200.

Shot my antelope at 135 yards.

Good luck

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Smoke: A larger meplat creates a larger wound channel. Why would that not be advantageous?


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That's a non-sequitur. Of course all things being equal including penetration, a larger diameter wound channel is advantageous. You don't need a larger meplat to get a large wound channel though., especially with a soft lead .50 caliber bullet.

The bullets I've been shooting are pointed with plastic tips. I use them because they're accurate in my rifle, not because of the shape. I have a collection of them, collected mostly from underneath the off-side hide. They're fully-expanded, to the size of a quarter. Some would say they expand too much.



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I will not debate with you the merit of your non-sequitur (a statement (such as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said) remark. However, I do take exception to your statement "You don't need a larger meplat to get a large wound channel". You would also have to include me in the "Some would say they expand too much" camp. I like 2 holes in stuff I shoot because I probably don't shoot as well you and 2 holes give me a better blood trail. Because you "...have a collection of them, collected mostly from underneath the off-side hide" , I would say all things are not equal and you are sacrificing expansion (which I agree you do not need with a 50 caliber projectile) for penetration.
At the speeds we are slinging heavy large caliber bullets accelerated by black powder or substitute (300 grain THOR @ 1630 fps), my contention is that our muzzleloaders perform similarly to large caliber revolvers loaded with smokeless powder. J. Marshall Stanton on page 71 of "Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide" discusses meplat diameter:
"Along those same lines, one can make a .41 magnum, with WFN bullets duplicate the same wounding capacity of a .44 LMN or LCM bullet when striking velocities are the same. Just look at the meplat diameters and compare them. If the meplat diameter is the same, the bullet diameters is the same, bullet weights similar and striking velocities are the same, terminal performance will be the same! It doesn't matter whether the cartridge says .41 Remington Magnum, 44 Remigton Magnum or .45 colt! The terminal results will be nearly identical.
The major difference in the heavier calibers is the superiority in sectional density of the bullet, and their ability to carry that wound channel deeper. But, on a deer there is only so much penetration that can take place, so often times the lighter calibers with proper bullets will do the same job as their heavier recoiling litter mates, After all dead is dead!
The argument changes color though when elk, moose, and bears enter the equation. Opt for penetration AND wound channel, and be prepared for a shot from any angle!"
Veral Smith on page 102 of "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets" comes to a similar conclusion.
On another subject, did you ever find your article on why scopes should not be on muzzleloaders for hunting season?

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Originally Posted by bobmn
.... I would say all things are not equal and you are sacrificing expansion (which I agree you do not need with a 50 caliber projectile) for penetration.


If I'm reading your statement above correctly, you are saying that expansion is not needed with a .50 caliber bullet, do I have that right? If so you're not agreeing with me because I didn't say that expansion is not needed, what I said was, a large meplat is not needed for a large wound channel. The logic being, a soft lead projectile is going to expand enough to make a large wound channel and kill an elk regardless of the size of the meplat. That's been my experience, has your experience been different?

Back to your quote above though, if you're saying that expansion is not needed, why does the size of the meplat matter?

And how many elk have you killed with different bullets where you've observed any differences in the bullet's capacity to put the animal down that were due to the size of the meplat? Not that it matters, but I read your quotes above about the pistol bullets and I didn't see anything there that leads me to believe that a larger meplat makes any difference.

Last, yes, I found the article, it's in a copy of Colorado Outdoors on my bookshelf. But there's nothing in there on why scopes should not be on muzzleloaders during the muzzleloader season. Just an explanation of the rationale behind Colorado's muzzleloader regulations that preclude scopes during the special early seasons (not all hunting seasons, scopes are legal on muzzleloaders during the rifle seasons). I'll look up the date of that issue and post it here if you're interested. If so you can order a back copy.



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Some one on here posted this awhile back and I have tried it , but not killed anything but a whitetail with it.I have killed elk,with mostly 348 gr power belts and have recovered them with almost no expansion t, as Smoke states, about big as quarter.The Aerotip PB, are just hollow points with a plastic tip installed.Remove the plastic tip and the measurements are identical.
I am in the school that if you put a 1/2 hole thru an elk,in the right place ,it will die pretty quick.The expansion is just icing on the cake,but I don't want too much.

So I have taken some 17 caliber air rifle pellets and pressed them into the hollow point with the skirt side down, ie. into the hollow point.The skirt needs to be squeezed down just a bit to get it started ,the finger pressure on a hard surface will seat it the remainder.

A 295 gr PB went thru a whitetail with a 1/2" hole going in and about 1.5" hole going out. If I draw an elk tag this fall and happen to find a stupid elk to kill, I'll report on how a 348 gr PB works


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Smoke: I am saying expansion is not needed if you use a bullet with a substantial meplat. A .44 caliber bullet with a .300 meplat diameter at 1600 fps creates a wound channel of 1.2" in diameter and that same caliber bullet with a .340 meplat at 1600 fps creates a 1.6" diameter wound channel (page 67 Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide). It will penetrate further than your expanding bullet . It will also track through the target in a straighter path. A comparison of round nose verses flat nose penetration has been published in the Linebaugh Seminar penetration tests. If you go to the the Terminal Bullet Performance subject at Accurate Reloading forums http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911 and read the 303 pages of tests by Michael458 you will also see the subject of mepla discussed at length. The subject is also covered at great length in "African Dangerous Game Cartridges" by Peter van der Walt Chapter 6 and 7.
Ross Seyfried in "Ultimate Handgun Bullets" said it best: "As we begin to design a handgun bullet there are three major factors that govern its terminal performance: weight, velocity and the diameter of the meplat (flat on its nose). They are all interrelated when we consider total performance. Like shifting gears in the transmission on a truck to alter speed and power, shifting weight, meplat and velocity gives us a scale of wound channel and penetration to match our game." page 60 Guns and Ammo/ October 1993. He also said: "When I launch a bullet at less than 2,000 fps, it will be a round ball or have a big flat on the nose" page 59.
Thanks for finding the article on the rational for Colorado's scope regulation.

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Originally Posted by smokepole

And how many elk have you killed with different bullets where you've observed any differences in the bullet's capacity to put the animal down that were due to the size of the meplat?
.



Bob, I'm not all that interested in quotes from reference books but I am interested in the answer to this question. Earlier, 30338 mentioned that he was thinking about using a No Excuses bullet and you told him he should use a bullet with a bigger meplat.

I'm just asking what your opinion is based on. Because I've shot plenty of elk with pointed bullets and none have gotten away. So I'm not buying that a big meplat makes a difference.



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To answer your question Smoke my opinion is based on two very long tracking jobs. One was a whitetail with a 350 grain Buffalo Bore bullet and the other was an elk and a Power belt. I went to a great deal of effort to justify my opinion with something other than anecdotal evidence to avoid a dik measuring contest with you, but you persist with your "if it did not happen to me it did not happen" discussion. If you looked at the No-excuse bullet in the link it is obvious the nose profile is a Keith style semi wadcutter design. As much as I admire Elmer Keith there have been some advances in bullet design since he invented his bullet about the time the .357 magnum became available. The no excuse bullet acts as a solid and is in no way related to your pointed expanding bullets. Unlike you I am interested in quotes from reference books to explain a phenomena that I do not fully understand. With today's license draws no one person, even you, is going to shoot enough game to become an expert on bullet performance. Frankly, I am surprised that someone who throws around Latin nouns would be so narrow minded. I think what you meant to say is I am not interested in any opinion that differs from mine. So if you are "...not buying that a big meplat makes a difference" but Ross Seyfried is, my money is on Seyfried's opinion. You are of course entitled to your opinion. I wish you good luck in all your outdoor endeavors.

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Originally Posted by Jerseyboy
I am invited to hunt in Colorado this year during black powder season. As I understand it, I cannot use optical sights or sabot bullets - lead only. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have three black powder guns - a 50 caliber T/C Renegade, a 50 caliber Knight Vision inline with scope, and a 54 caliber kit gun given to me. I figure on taking the T/C. Since the trigger is horrible, I have ordered a double set trigger for it, as well as some T/C lead bullets.

The Knight has no iron sights, so if I wanted to take it I would have to buy them. I have only shot it with Triple Seven pellets and sabots, never with Maxi balls or other similar projectiles. T/C does not recommend using Triple Seven or Blackhorn 209 in the Renegade, probably because they is harder to ignite than black powder or Pyrodex.

I don't like the 54 caliber as it has a nasty curved metal butt plate which looks like it will hurt me when I fire it. I'm on blood thinners, so that's not good.

My questions:

What loads do you recommend for the Renegade - bullets and powder? What are the regulations for black powder other than what I mentioned?

Thanks for any help.


I'd lean towards the 50 cal T/C Renegade. You can buy a musket cap nipple for it for less than $10. Musket caps are about 700 degrees hotter than a #11 cap and will easily ignite 777 ffg loose powder. A 370 gr Maxi-ball on top of 100 gr of 777 is a good elk load. You can also but a tang peep sight for the Renegade which will help with more precise aiming on longer shots.


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Originally Posted by bobmn
To answer your question Smoke my opinion is based on two very long tracking jobs.


What were the results of your tracking jobs and what did they tell you about the importance of meplat size with a sample of one for each bullet? Did you recover the animals?


Originally Posted by bobmn
I went to a great deal of effort to justify my opinion with something other than anecdotal evidence to avoid a dik measuring contest with you, but you persist with your "if it did not happen to me it did not happen" discussion.


Sorry Bob but that's not what I said at all. What I said was, I've shot a bunch of elk with pointed bullets and they all died so I'm not buying that you need a large meplat to kill an elk. You responded with a bunch of stuff you read in a book, and I put about as much trust in what gunwriters write as I do with what I read on here. You can quote Ross Seyfried all you want, makes no difference to me. How many elk has he killed with muzzleloaders, and did he test different bullets with different meplats to get his results?


Originally Posted by bobmn
If you looked at the No-excuse bullet in the link it is obvious the nose profile is a Keith style semi wadcutter design. As much as I admire Elmer Keith there have been some advances in bullet design since he invented his bullet about the time the .357 magnum became available. The no excuse bullet acts as a solid and is in no way related to your pointed expanding bullets.


I don't believe I ever said that the No Excuses bullet is related to the bullets I use because they're obviously not the same. What I do know about the No Excuses bullet is that a bunch of guys have used them to kill elk and have said that they like the way they kill elk. Maybe they're successful because a .50 caliber 400 grain hunk of lead flying through the air will kill an elk when the shot is placed correctly, regardless of the shape of the meplat. Design basis matters little in the face of success. Unless you just like to read about those kinds of things.

Come to think of it, in all of the discussions I've ever heard or read between elk hunters on bullets, the subject of the size of the meplat and its importance in killing elk has never come up before now. Do you want to know why that is? Because it doesn't matter.

If it did matter then elk bullets would all have large meplats but they don't. Large meplats may have some theoretical advantages, but so do pointed bullets. Theoretically at least, a pointed bullet is "better" in that it has a higher BC, retains more velocity and kinetic energy downrange, and as a result creates a larger would channel.

Or maybe they just kill elk because a 400 grain .50 caliber hunk of lead flying through the air will kill an elk when placed properly.



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Something that's being left out of this Meplat "discussion" is that you can't compare dead soft pure lead muzzleloader bullets with hard cast cartridge bullets. I'd agree a large meplat creates a larger wound channel with a bullet that doesn't significantly change shape when it strikes tissue, but an extremely malleable pure lead bullet changes nose shape (flattens/expands) the moment it strikes.


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Well, kind of. I did say that with a soft lead bullet you don't need a big meplat for expansion and a large wound channel. But you're right, hard-cast pistol bullets and soft lead conicals are apples and oranges.



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No Excuses are pure lead. It'll be the 420 grain one or a patched .535 roundball. Maybe the .535 on my 200" mule deer and the 420 grain no excuses on my raghorn?

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Mind yer meplat, pilgrim.



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Jeremiah Johnson - er I mean Smoke : Ross Seyfried was the 1981 World Practical Pistol Champion in 1981. He was a licensed Professional Hunter in two African countries. He owned Elk Song Ranch in Oregon and guided elk hunters on his property. I suspect he has been involved in more elk kills then even an old sourdough such as yourself. His bona fides (recalling your fondness for Latin nouns) can be found at http://www.classicarmsjournal.com/about/contributors/ Jeremiah Smoke or elk guide? I am still going with the elk guide's bullet recommendation.
Since a "bunch of guys" have used the No Excuse bullet, do you know if they are getting complete pass thru? What size wound channel? How much expansion?
Do you have the particular issue details of Colorado Outdoors magazine which discusses why Colorado chooses no scopes during muzzleloader only season? Thanks.

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LOL, Bob that's great that he's been a PH in Africa and he's a world champion pistol shooter. Was he shooting muzzleloader bullets in Africa with different meplats so he could see if meplats made a difference?

You are free of course to take anyone's advice you want, even if he's never shot an elk with a muzzleloader. But you're not free to give people advice on a public forum without having your advice criticized if it has no solid basis.






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I would be more concerned with finding a bullet that shot accurately out of my rifle and would penetrate well rather than it having a large metplat.I bought some No Excuses bullets and some White bullets on the recommendations of folks here on the fire before my trip to Colorado. Neither of them would shoot a decent group out of my T/C Firehawk or Omega. I shot a lot of different bullets and loads getting ready for that huntand it wasn't until about a month before the trip I tried some Maxi-balls and that's what shot the best out of both rifles.

My advice would be to find someone that has the same rifle or at least make of rifle and listen to their advice. I think the OP tuned out when the metplat "discussion" started but that's my opinion FWIW.

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Originally Posted by Jerseyboy
... I bought some Power Belts yesterday at a store in NY State, the closest one that sells ammo, and i have some T/C lead bullets on order.

I hunted with a renegade flintlock for 24 years and my wife hunted for a few years with one. I shot maxi-balls, buffalo bullets, and a couple similar types that I don't remember the name. I think they ranged from about 345-385 grains, they all shot excellent. Made a number of kills from 100-125 yds. They had tremendous penetration but no expansion. The renegade with it's short barrel doesn't get a lot of velocity so with heavy solid bullets it doesn't expand. I only recovered one of the heavy bullets and that was on a frontal lengthwise shot. Entered base of neck, travelled across to ribs missing the 1st two but taking a big gap out of every one after that stopping in the front of the rear leg, of course dropped on the spot. That is the one in the pic below with me in the red suit. All the broadside shots had the deer running fair distances with a LOT of blood but basically 50 in and 50 out without a lot of tissue damage. I wanted something with a little more shock. Not sure but around 1990, whenever powerbelts came out, I tried the powerbelt 245HP. Shot very accurate and left a big hole in the deer, not a lot different from a centerfire. Also used the 245AT and 295AT. Both good accuracy and killed well but not as a dramatic of a hole as the 245HP. I would look at the 295 and today I would definitely try the aerolites. Just as a point of reference, I was getting 1475fps with the 295AT and 100gr FF.

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Cool looking piebald.

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Originally Posted by bobmn

Do you have the particular issue details of Colorado Outdoors magazine which discusses why Colorado chooses no scopes during muzzleloader only season? Thanks.


It was in the 2003 Hunting Guide issue, comes out every year right before hunting season. The title was "Traditional vs Modern Muzzleloaders: Technological Advances, Boon or Bane?" Starts on page 8.



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Thanks for the info Smoke.

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Howdy Guys---- I've just finished reading the discussion here "bout the differences between ML bullets and it seems to me that it is the same one I've heard around campfires every where I've hunted . Penetration vs expansion, pointed vs flat nose when the real question should be, after the shot, "did you eat the elk or watch it run away never to be found"? . Bullet construction is important, but no more important than correctly placing the bullet and only when good bullet placement is not possible ( which is often the case in hunting) does bullet construction become paramount. Given the right circumstances Roy's light and fast bullet will do the same thing that Elmers' slow and heavy one will.------------- I just realized that the real reason discussions like this one happen is 'cause we just enjoy the debate and it gives us something to think about, so never mind what I said and as the Brits say "carry on"
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I never shot a elk but saying this u want to see what a 50 or 54 will do with a TC Maxi ball try this I did. Fill up 12 one gal. milk jugs full of water back up 25 yards with your gun loaded up with 90 gr in each gun and a Maxi ball. Both should shoot threw the jugs. Powbults will not only goes threw 9 maybe 10 i tried this

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OK, I got Thor bullets to send me a sizing pack. Kind of confused as to what size is correct. Obviously the .500 are too small as I can shake the barrel and get the bullet to fall through. But the .501 through .503 all feel exactly the same while pushing through with my range rod....VERY TIGHT!

Looking for suggestions.

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Mark, order the one size fits all Thor. www.muzzle-loaders.com will be stocking them.

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