Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting ES effect in a LR Hunting scenario

Question for you gents with more mid-lr hunting experience than I - out to say 650-700 yards max, how much concern should go into Velocity spread differences? I want to work on a load in my 280 ackley with Re 22 which can be temp sensitive. Lets say that between extremes, the velocity would range 30-50fps difference. At a max 6-700 yards would it matter? (deer/elk size game)

I could see it having an effect on extreme distance, but if that 30-50FPS spread caused 1-2" either way at say 600 yards, I would imagine it would still be just fine for big game?

At 600 yds it probably wouldn’t make much difference. However, tolerances stack and I like to minimize potential problem areas like that. I’ve been switching to more temp stable powders and quit using RL22 a long time ago because of the extreme velocity swings I got with it out of a 7mm rem mag. The majority of my loading is with Varget, H4350, & H1000 for that reason. I can find a good load for just about all my rifles from one of those powders. I’ve had way too much wonky stuff happen with RL22 to ever want to use it again.

6-7” by 700 with a 50 FPS swing. As said by crow tolerances stack up and make misses.

However you can have cold weather profiles in your app or cold weather dope cards.. takes a bit of shooting to get that all dialed in.

If that's as far as you're shooting, and that's all your velocity is going to swing it won't be a big deal.

We do a lot of year round shooting; and a common combined error at minus 20-30 C at 650 yards is 1 MOA, partly due to the heavy winter air and partly due to lower velocities in the cold. The easiest way to handle this is to pick a range you like and either re-sight with a subtention reticle or slip the scale with turrets.

Example:

Say your rifle is 1 MOA low at 500 with your ballistic reticle. Sight in with that crosshair at that distance. If your primary sight in was 200 yards you're now 2" high at that distance which means more or less nothing for big-game hunting. It will likely be less than that. 400 and 600 will take care of themselves.

Example 2:

Say youre running turrets and you have the same issue of being 1 MOA low at 500. Lets say your chart said 8. Sight for 500 and slip the scale until it reads 8 MOA. 400 and 600 will again take care of themselves. If your 100 yard zero is off 1" MOA who cares because you shouldn't be carrying it dialled down that low anyway. Dial for MPBR and zero to 300 is taken care off.

IMHO,everything matters in long range shooting. Consistency is the name of the game. You should strive for the lowest possible ES that you can achieve. Even though the OP is talking about 650-700 yards, it is only a matter of time until that range is stretched. Part of the allure of this endeavor is farther, farther and farther. As the range increases, each factor becomes exponentially more important. When shooting at an animal it behooves us to minimize ANY potential error in the shot. I don't mean to be pedantic; but this is not the place for almost or close enough.

Save yourself the headache and don't use RL22. You will get wild swings, and end up using a different powder in the end anyway.

You didn't give a lot of specifics, but for an example I used a 280 Ackley Improved using a 150 grain AccuBondLR bullet with a G1 BC of 0.608 with a nominal MV of 2930 fps. With standard ICAO conditions and with a 250 yard zero set for the 2930 fps MV, the impact point at 700 yards rises 2.35 inches if the MV increases to 2955 fps and drops 2.42 inches if MV decreases to 2905 fps. That's a total difference of 4.77 inches, which at 700 yards is 0.65 MOA. With deer/elk size game that's not much error in itself, but it adds to the overall error budget.

In the end you have to believe what the long range target says. People spend a lot of time trying to get single digit ES spreads with instruments only capable of measuring plus or minus 15 fps on the best day they ever had.

If the most accurate load at distance doesn't have the lowest ES spread are you going with the target or the chronograph?

If the target tells you you have a 700 yard load does it matter if you even own a chronograph?

If the drops don't match that chronograph do you believe the chronograph? Ditto for B.Cs.

If the adjustments on your scope don't track what written on them, what do you believe? What do you do?

If the targets don't support the current favorite witchcraft loading technique do you keep on doing it?

In the end there's only the target.

+1 Good post

Increased drop because of velocity loss isn't the only temp sensitivity effect to consider. If the load goes out of tune the POI at the sight in distance may move in any direction, not just down. The grouping may go to pot as well.

Which is all the more reason to shoot it at distance and see what it does. Everything else is just a nice theory to one extent or another.

Funny how developing a load at Long Range with an Audette Ladder this worry. Kinda why Creighton invented it

There is a lot of truth and a lot of B.S. mixed together here, but first to the OP and RL22.
RL22 gets a bad rap for being temp sensitive, it is a bit temp sensitive but more lot# sensitive. In some rifles it flat out shoots better than any other powder so if you find a load that works with your rifle buy all the powder you can with that lot# and tweak your load a bit for temp extremes.

M70G, You have to believe what your target says.......but at what distance ??????

I have almost given up using my chronograph for my short range bench rest guns that are only 100-200yard, find a load that works and ES is irrelevant. but the farther the distance the more relevant ES becomes, you might find your load that makes your target happy at 700 yards and your point might be valid.........stretch it to 1000yards and you have 6" vertical and you will be scratching your head thinking that ES matters a bit more !!!!!! I have had an Oehler35P chronograph for decades and it has proven to be more accurate than +/- 15fps, on the other side I have seen shooters chrony's that might not be capable of +/-150fps.

You say "In the end there's only the target" as if it is an absolute.......change distances to your target and it is no longer absolute.

M70G, You have to believe what your target says.......but at what distance ??????

Obviously at the range you shot it. If your SBR guns are capable at the range they will be shot then rest is up to you. 1000 yards means nothing.

Likewise with the 700 LR hunter. If his combination of rifle, load and optics shows that any misses are his own fault, he can move onto something that matters like putting the first one where it belongs. 100 yards means nothing. He may also find out he doesn't have a 700 yard rig, or that he isn't a 700 yard first-shot wind doper but these are also good to know. Shaving an inch isn't much help when conditions are measured in feet.

I have had an Oehler35P chronograph for decades and it has proven to be more accurate than +/- 15fps, on the other side I have seen shooters chrony's that might not be capable of +/-150fps.

No argument from me, most chronographs are a joke. The + or - 15 fps is based on .05% accuracy and 3000 fps but chronograph makers must be hopeless optimists. The childlike faith that people put in them is touching.

I've got my own 1/2 mile private range and can tell if I have a load faster than I can set up a chronograph. Targets don't lie.


.change distances to your target and it is no longer absolute.

Nothing is ever absolute. Even if there absolutely zero chronograph error there is no particular reason to believe that the muzzle position is identical from shot to shot. That can combine with velocity spread and magnify into stringing or cancel each other out giving a nice waterline. The chronograph doesn't know that, but the target does.

Swap the 22 with H-4831 and 160 Accubonds, you can drive em to 3000-3050 fps.

35 fps and less, but I only shoot to 600





P

I hunt and target shoot, handloading is of major interest in this activity.

I've used all manner of techniques to get a good load over the years, to that end I have settled on using a LabRadar for velocities (claim 0.1% accuracy) and have studied the QuickLoad program so I can use the information provided for Optimum Barrel Time and Optimum Charge Weight. An additional benefit is the ability to model different powders bullets etc. before using resources in the trial and error method.

For long range reliable hits you do need a load that has a low ES, single digit is preferred, it must be a very tolerant to minor mechanical differences and temperatures (OCW), the bullet must leave the barrel when the barrel is least disturbed (OBT).

Depending on the quality and exacting attention to detail many rifles will fall into the 1/2 moa group with a variety of bullets and powders but not all.

With all that you will require an accurate range finder and learn to read the wind, this been the decider.