Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting Favorite 45-70 load?

The best I have made so far in my Marlin 1895 is using 50.5 grains of Varget to push a 405 grain as well as a 360 grain cast bullet. I am getting two to three inches at 100 yards. I have heard 4198 being used a lot but my test loads are not as good as the Varget that I am running out of.

I am not getting the accuracy for which I hoped. This is after doing the usual preparations I know from jacketed bullet loading.

I have seen some great shot groups on this page. Is anyone wiling to share a favorite 45-70 load and why it is so good?

So far, it's 15gr of Longshot behind a 360 fn. Very accurate, mild to shoot, and just enough rainbow to the trajectory to make shooting past 100 a challenge. The rifle is a 26" Marlin.

Ranger,

I can't point to a "favorite" load, I would point you more towards bullet design and fit.

When I load for 45/70, or any lever rifles, I generally use a bullet that snug fits the throat, a gas check design and make the WW metal alloy water dropped from the mould. Snug fit to the throat means in a lever gun we need a slight resistance when the lever closes. If fouling prevents this, .001-.0005 more sizing is used or deeper seating until the round snugly chambers. I realize some may not have a custom throat fitting mould with corresponding cannelure, so seat as large as will chamber and use a slight roll crimp, even if there is no cannelure or seating goes past the cannelure. Usually mass produced bore ride or undersized driving bands are used in deference to where the crimping groove is positioned. This is the cause of inaccuracy with cast. The crimping cannelure is kind of important, but if using it means a sloppy fit in the throat, it should be ditched.

Gas checked helps keep the bore condition consistent across temperature swings, an array of bore qualities and makes rifle bullets behave across whatever velocities/powders we choose to shoot them at/with.

A slight bell of the case that allows the bullet to be hand seated at the base of the first lube groove (AFTER the gas check) prevents scraping and minimizes runout.

A final recommendation is using a large die for lubing and sizing/seating the gas check with the bullet nose first. A bullet will stay in balance if the check isn't guiding the sizing process; using 9/10ths of bullet first aids immensely.

Cast rifle loads respond with accuracy when cast hard enough to prevent pressure obturation and I've used fast rifle powder, fillers, slow powder and they all give great accuracy if bullet design, snug fit, care of seating and hardness are given the most attention.

With cast, unlike benchrest, we make the bullet fit the gun, not guns that fit a bullet.

Gentlemen,

This is what I get for posting while tired. I wanted the easy answer and instead I get the right one.

So now I will go about loading for the Marlin the correct way. Just quoting you I am going to sound about three times more knowledgeable than I am. If I do what you say, I will be ten times more.

Thank you very much Guys. But only 15 grains of Longshot? So you use any filer?

Ranger, I used to use the 457122 Gould bullet out of my 45-70, I cast from a fairly soft alloy, the bullet cast at 346gr rather than the listed 330. However, I sized it .001 over groove diameter, lubed it with LBT soft, and seated over enough 4198 to get about 1650. I tried it with a Dacron filler and without, with no discernible difference. My 1886 with a peep would put three of them into 1.5” at 100 yards consistently. I get the feeling the limiting factor was my eyesight, which is declining. Hawk gave you good advice above. The big thing with cars rifle bullets is fit the bullet to the gun and make straight ammo. They can be pretty forgiving if you do that. The above load also refused to lead. I buddy tried it in his Marlin, and he now owns the mold, since he got very good results with his scoped rifle, hope this helps,

Old70

No filler, but a piece of card at the base of the bullet. Longshot ignites easily and hasn't been position-sensitive in my tests in the 45-70. It gets pretty speedy at 17 grains. I was shooting soft PB bullets, and accuracy went south a 18 grains. One ragged hole for 5 shots at 50 yds.

The bullets are the Lee 340 or whatever weight they claim, cast 360 in my alloy, a blend of range scrap and lead, 2:1. I ran several over the chrono, but I can't remember the speed now, and my notes are closer to the opposite coast than the one I'm near at the moment. Around 1300, I think, at 15gr.

It should make a great woods hunting load for deer and elk, but more importantly, it was just a pleasure to shoot, and accurate for 100yd water bottles with a few drops of food coloring added, my favorite reactive targets for plinking.

Doing 55 gr of IMR4895 behind a 405 grain Speer. They are peddling out at about 1,750 fps from a Guide Gun and are not exactly fun to light off. Capable of clover leafing at 100 yds though. Next go around, I'm taking them back down to about 1,250 fps. There is absolutely no need to hotrod a 45-70. Except for maybe a buffalo, they can probably end to end anything in North America.

So All,

Thanks again. I am using a plain base bullet (410 grains as cast RNFP) but I followed HawkI's advice as best I could. I used the belled case to help find the overall length by placing the bullet in place and seating it. The overall length was 2.600 so I backed it off .015 and applied a light roll crimp with a Lee crimp die.


I hope to show preliminary results Saturday evening.

I am trying IMR 4198 but do have a can of H4895. I will use a NOE 360 grain (as cast ) HP with gas check for that one.

AS for the cards, are they something you make using a case as a punch? Is there a certain material or thickness that is better than others?

Thanks again.

Yes, I use a case as a sort of punch, but it is easier to sharpen the mouth (from the outside) and spin a case in a drill to cut card. I'm not sure how necessary the card backer is, but it seems to do a better job when shooting PB bullets fast than without it. I prefer non-corrugated card, as thick as I can find it, from random packaging of consumer products. Those loads were shot with card from 12-pack boxed soda, but I prefer thicker when I can find it. The key is to get the diameter right (in no way smaller than the base of the bullet, but not more than .001' bigger), and to cut the card as round as you can. I know that someone makes a press-mounted punch. I will likely get one someday. The sharpened case method, with the primer pocket drilled out and a bolt run through and secured with a nut, was something I quickly thought up and fabricated just to test whether card makes any difference. I've found it does.

One can use a cartridge, but they don't last long. Dedicated steel punches in several calibers are available from Buffalo Arms. The BPCR crowd use lots of card and newspaper wads. Card wads by the thousands in a variety of thicknesses can be had as well from Buffalo Arms and are quite reasonable. A favored material is the card stock on the back of paper tablets and/or the waxed cardboard 1/2 gallon milk jugs. Most punch their own newspaper material.

In the BPCR realm card wads are used as fillers (as opposed to corn meal) or barriers between the powder and lube cookies and or lube cookies and the slug. Newspaper goes immediately against the slug to keep lube cookies from sticking to the back of the bullet. Some will also put a layer of newspaper immediately ahead of the primer arguing that they get a more consistent light off of their powder.

Card wads and fillers are used to reduce fouling and keep bore condition. They help clean lead in molten state along with powder fouling so more shots (groups) can be fired with consistency and reducing the need to clean.

In high pressure loads fillers can reduce base obturation and lube stress, again to reduce leading but also to hit higher velocity levels and maintain accuracy. Hot ambient temps as well. They can help with poor fit, but there are limits.

Reducing "jump" to the rifling, along with minimal deforming (unbalancing) in the throat as much as possible, makes cast bullets happy.
It also allows them to be cast harder as fit gets better, which in turn is a building block to higher velocity or higher pressures along with better accuracy. Without snug fit, hard alloys lead horribly.

If you dont have a snug fit and a sealed base, hard alloys can suck. With both, they can essentially do whatever a jacketed bullet can in the Marlin.

FWIW, a 45-70 loaded with a 500 grain round nosed Govt. bullet and 70 grains of 2f black powder for 1210 fps WILL go end to end on a 3 year old bull buffalo. I have seen it done, twice. One buffalo went ten yards, the other fell in his tracks.

This is great stuff. I've only been casting seriously for 5 years or so, and I hit it with some gusto, but there are a bunch of little bits that only time and experience bear out. Thanks for posting.

Marlin 1895 CB + RX7 + 510 grain cup based paper patch = 1700-1800 fps and sub MOA @ 100 yds....with a tang sight. BTDT.

I don't normally recommend such light bullets but sometimes you do what you gotta do.

Will a marlin handle that? Will my shoulder?

Where do I learn about this paper patch business?

I am falling deeper into this rabbit hole.

Get a copy of Paul Matthews' book "The Paper Jacket". Use bullets intended for paper patch, not grease groove bullets. Montana Precision Swaging is a good source of proper bullets properly sized. Proper dimensions are critically important to success and this includes bullet and paper.

Gentlemen, and Hawk "I" -(I just got it. I was career Army and your name always sounded like "Hawk ONE " in my brain),

Just got back from my first try out with the longer loaded 45-70s. I had my 10 year old with me and we had to stay at the fifty yard range. I did not mind so much as she is just now wanting to go to the range with me. After we finished her .22 shooting I broke out the bigger Marlin. I tried one load of 30 grains of 4198 for a trapdoor level load with a hollow base 405 grain round nose. It hit at point of aim at fifty yards with a horizontal spread of about four inches, all due to me warming up. No vertical spread, only side to side.

I then tried the ladder loads of 43.0 grains, 44.1 and 45.2 grains of 4198, from the Hodgdon's website. I shot and checked for pressure signs as I went. I had slight to moderate resistance when closing the bolt and shot with some trepidation. I didn't need to worry as all shot well, if not as accurately as I hope for. That is until the last load of 45.2 grains. All three loads landed seven inches high at fifty yards but that was because my last time at the range I had zeroed the Varget load at 100 yards. I was using the bottom two inch square of a zeroing target as a point of aim. The last load put three inside the upper two in square in a diagonal line, upper left to lower right, about one and a half inches long. I got so excited I pulled the last one high.

So I will cast some more at a relatively harder BHN, hopefully close to 15 BHN, and try again. If my PatMarlin gas check maker doesn't come soon, they will have at least punched card wads behind them.

Thanks for sharing you knowledge and experience.

Oh, and no leading.

This be them/it, whatever............

Top 'mushroom' 450grn, bottom 500, recovered from damp sand, velocity around 1400fps, IIRC.......

Just passing along what's been passed along.

Thanks for the update. So many times we never know if someone has had success or not!