Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters The Big Book of Gun Gack No. 2

Mule Deer

Your Gack book is my favorite reloading book and I have a few reloading books. Not only is the data in your book great, but the commentary is great too!

As for your new Gun Gack book, I will be ordering as soon as it is available.

Since you’ve done extensive testing in powder (and bullets), I’d like to ask for more data on the loads you show. Three more items: temperature sensitivity, copper and carbon residue (grade (1 - 10)) 1 being great and 10 not good, also the statistical variance in velocity.

I am confident you already know these things — it would be invaluable for the other loonies.

Some of this information is in Gack book’s first release — for instance, it was a little disconcerting finding out that my stash of H-335 has been bettered by CFE-223 and TAC for cleaning characteristics. I don’t mind getting the Hopes out after 50 rounds. It brings me back to dad’s gun room every time I get a whiff of #9’s bouquet. But sometimes those pesky varmints don’t want to wait...

Today, I’m considering buying some powder in the “Big Game” characteristics range. Although I have a bit of “Varget” powder and other similar powders.

Barnes manual had two identical loads for 130 grain TTSX in the ‘06. Your data showed very similar results with Varget and Big Game. Barnes, however, recommended Big Game as the powder to go too. I wonder! I’d follow your advice. In particular, how do these loads compare in the three things I mentioned above?

I’m going to be buying the book at any rate. Thanks for your writings.

Hi Bugger,

Thanks!

Gack 2 should be out by September. It won't contain handloads for quite as many cartridges, mostly because so many were covered in the first book, but will have far more background info on handloading--including an entire chapter on the effect of temperature on various powders. Also, some cartridge chapters will review new powders for a few of the more popular cartridges listed in the original book, because so many new (and very good) powders have appeared since the first book was published. There are also going to be over 20 chapters on hunting rifles themselves, covering a wide range of subjects.

As for the additional data you're requesting for specific loads, sorry but that's not happening. First, there are too many variables involved in powder and copper fouling. Powder fouling doesn't vary just with the specific powder, but pressure. Copper fouling varies with the smoothness of the barrel, and even the effectiveness of decoppering agents varies with the powder capacity of the round, jacket material, and the length of typical bullets for that cartridge. Standard deviation is the best measure of velocity variance, but requires several dozen shots with the same load to obtain a statistically valid number--and then will probably be different in your rifle anyway. I know of only one loading manual that listed SD for each load, and they gave up the practice pretty quickly because so many handloaders complained they weren't getting the same SD in their rifle--partly because they were calculating SD from 3-5 rounds, a REALLY meaningless number.

The loads "recommended" in manuals are simply those that shot most accurately during their testing. These often do shoot well in other rifles, partly because their testing takes place on indoor ranges, without wind affecting groups--a far greater influence on accuracy than most handloaders believe. But sometimes the same loads don't shoot the best in other rifles. That's also why I simply list the groups fired in my rifles for various powder/bullet combinations. Loading manuals are basically lists of results.

Generally we announce a new book when the final version is scheduled to be printed. It takes about 6-8 weeks for printing and shipping from the printing company, and we should be making the announcement in July or August.

I enjoyed “Rifle Shooting and Handloading”.
All kinds of good info. Great book.

MD

Well I unstand that I’ve asked for much! Getting all that data would be a huge undertaking. However, you’ve been answering some of that in your comments such as H-335 vs. TAC vs. CFE-223 in your write up on the 223 in Gack #1. I for one really appreciate these comments! Adding data to a book that’s very close to being written is/was an unreasonable request.

It’s difficult for a non-professional to gather the information needed to make best decisions and your comments on clean burning powder and powder that eliminates issues with copper and your comments on your preferred powders are invaluable.

There’s a lot of talk/writing on bullet selection and bullets have generally improved so much our lifetimes. Granted I could still be happy with Partitions the rest of my life...

Powders, it seems has been improving also. Ramshot, new IMR, new Hodgen and other powders for instance, is new to those of us who stocked up on powder during a time when a gun unfriendly President (between the bushes/Bush’s) and is now running out of that ‘stash’ of powder and looking forward to these Improved powders.

Heck, for example, I still have Bulkseye that I bought almost 50 years ago, though not so much anymore.

I’m glad I no longer have WW-785, and some other powders that seemed to have been rather ‘touchy’ to high temperatures. I can only imagine what cordite was like.

Thanks again and please understand that your writing is read and read again - your advice is invaluable and appreciated much.

I Hope you have more up to date info on the 358 Win than the bucket and powder companies. Other than TAC, the Accurate and Ramshot rifle powders are mostly unavailable around here so I hope there are plenty of IMR, Hodgdon, and Alliant data. I could mail order but the hazmat fee adds extra cost. Plus, it seems that all but Fedex drop off our packages across the road where they drop into a black hole or something.

Other than the 358 Win, the first Gun Gack covered pretty much everything I wanted. Seeing data for the new powders would be nice but I have a lot of "old" powder to burn up first. Data for obsolete cartridges with new powders would be nice but I think Mike Venturino gave me some pretty good ideas how to handle that in his article on the 351 WSL.

Come to think of it, expanded powder coverage for the 35 Rem and some work on the 219 Zipper with pointed bullets would be nice. The latter especially so as it would save me a bunch of bumbling, stubbing of toes, and banging my head against the wall.

Midway's hazmat is now $19.95, and spread over a large order, not that tough to swallow. Costs me $5 or $6 in gas to drive to the nearest LGS and back to browse their limited selection (though I can call when I know what I want). That said, I've yet to buy any powder or primers online as yet. I'm well primered up after a recent purchase, and like most, I've got a lot of partial containers of powder I need to burn up in practice loads.

woodmaster,

There is going to be a chapter on the .358 Winchester, but you're on your own with the .219 Zipper.

That is good news on the 358, I kind of figured that regarding the Zipper. I had hopes as you DID do a much appreciated article on the 6mm Lee/Navy which is virtually unknown compared to the Zipper. Maybe you could be arm twisted into an article on the 22Savage High Power? You did a teaser on the Savage named rounds that was published not long ago and something more in depth on the HP could be used for that round and the Zipper. I feel I am running blind working with some of these rounds and having a data source I feel trustworthy helps ease my mind. At least it gives me something recent for comparison.

Thank you for your books and articles, I really appreciate what you write. Almost as much as Eileen's cookbooks!

I'll definitely be ordering the Big Book of Gun Gack II. The Big Book of Gun Gack I is far and above my favorite reading material!

woodmaster,

Aside from obscurity, the big problem with the Zipper is personal. Not that I dislike the cartridge, but that I've yet to run into a .219 Zipper rifle that was interesting enough for me to buy it. I have no desire to own a lever-action Zipper, and all the single-shots I've encountered were Improved Zippers.

All of which involves why I own a 6mm Lee Navy. Many if not most references include conflicting information, both about the cartridge and rifle, so when the opportunity came along to buy a rifle for a decent price, I did.
If I ever encounter a single-shot .219 Zipper in decent shape for a price I want to pay, the same thing may occur. But the Zipper doesn't have the history of conflicting info about the 6mm Lee-Navy.

There is going to be a chapter on all four Savage rounds.

I'll pass along your opinion of the cookbooks! Am sure Eileen will be most appreciative.

MULE DEER ,I have enjoyed all your books ,I do own a few and glad you are coming out with another book ! will you have a chapter on any of the Weatherby cartridges, my favorite is the 257 Weatherby Mag. Thank You,Pete53

pete,

The first Gun Gack has chapters that include the .240 and .257 Weatherby, titled "The Other Two 6mms" and "The Accurate .25's." There's also a chapter on the .300 Weatherby.

Gack 2 will have a chapter on the four original Weatherby magnums, the .257, .270, 7mm and .300, with updated info, along with a chapter on the 6.5-.300.

Glad you like the books!

BTW, we had venison steaks with traditional herbed butter with half smashed potatoes-the wife loved them and the left over steak will be used in omelets in the morning. We have loved everything but the Safari Steaks (wife does not care for wine based marinades) and Dr Pepper Steaks (not fans of Dr Pepper) but the latter would probably be better received using Coke. She loved some crane breasts fixed that way.

Following. I enjoy reading the first Gun Gack book.

Thanks Mule Deer.

WM81,

One of the reasons I continue to subscribe to the Wolfe publications like Handloader & Rifle is that they cover odds and ends like you mentioned, in depth, not just in passing. In my tub-o-zines I've got articles on everything you brought up, going back to Issue 1 of Rifle, picked up in a thrift store. Terry Wieland seems to do most of the niche pieces, but almost everyone gets in the act at times. The special issues like the annuals on varmint guns also cover some, with modern powders and bullets too. All of those are available in one form or other from Wolfe. Poking around on the www will probably turn up some good stuff too.

woodmaster,

There will be a chapter in Gack 2 on "Loading Oddball Cartridges," suggestions for working up safe loads for cartridges with very little (or even no) published data available.

One of the suggestions is to collect older manuals, not because their data is always still good--though with common IMR powders is usually is pretty close, especially with lower-pressure rounds like the Zipper--but because they provide some idea of where to start, especially when comparing the case capacity of older rounds to newer cartridges.

Do you have any older manuals that include the .219 Zipper?

7x300 wtby!!!! LOL.

Mule Deer,

I have an old Lyman (I think) that has some data and Phil Sharpe's book which I think has data in it. Based on what you have said regarding pressure testing methods of those days I am leery of striking out on my own. I have Gun Gack, read the chapter on "Rules", and am pretty decent with math but when I make a math mistake I tend to do a good job of it! With the checkbook that is only embarrassing, with a rifle maybe not so much. I was also hoping for heavy bullet info as I believe this is a faster twist barrel. I was going to use Hornady's 22HP data as a guideline for 69-70 gr bullets in this Zipper as I think the two are pretty comparable but am too much of a tyro with metallic reloading to get very venturesome. I am down to the last of my "good looks" and am hoarding them the best I can.

If you rifle does have a faster twist, reducing .22 HP data a couple grains should work. The two cartridges are very similar, but the Zipper's body is just a little shorter, reducing capacity a little.

In reality, the standard 1-12 twist for the .22 HP is a little slow for 70-grain spitzers. European rifles for the 5.6x52R usually have 1-10 twists, which works better. Have heard the 70-grain Hornady was actually designed for the 5.6x52R, but do know for sure that it hasn't shot nearly as well in the .22 HP's I've loaded for as somewhat lighter bullets, like the 60-grain Nosler Partition.

Mule Deer, I am so glad to hear your new Gun Gack II will be out soon. My Gun Gack is getting dog eared already. Looking forward to more dope on the Weatherby cartridges. Happy Trails