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I saw this gun this weekend for sale at a Gun Show. It was made in the early 1900s and was in great condition. It was European of origin and engraved beautifully. The owner said it was a Joe Springer. It was truly a very well built combo. Would anyone know the value of this drilling?

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Is this a Drilling or combination gun? Drilling has two shotgun barrels over the rifle barrel 12/12/25-35, a combination gun will only have a single 12ga barrel over the rifle barrel 12/25-35

First be sure it is a 25-35/6.5x52R, there is a cartridge that was fairly popular in Europe the, the 6.5x58R that has the same rim diameter and the bore will mic out nearly the same as the 25-35, so unless there has been a chamber cast done or the gun has been checked to see if it will actually chamber a 25-35 round. If it is actually marked 25-35 it was more than likely made for export. The 12ga chambers could be 2 1/2" on an early 12ga not a big deal as RST and a few others make 2 1/2" shells (there will be a 65-12 on the barrel flats) and reloading components and data are readily available.

I would guess at a minimum it would be in the $1500+ if it is all original and barrels are not pitted and no mods made to it. It really depends on how much you want the weapon. You could not get the same made today for anything close to buying used, it is a desirable combination not commonly seen , a great coyote/predator hunting rig, useable on deer, great for turkeys.

I use a 16/16/6.5x58R Sauer for coyote hunting see link.

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1262/mF8Jow.jpg

6.5x58R in the center

https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3559/6v77Cn.jpg


Last edited by erich; 05/06/18.

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12 bore on a drilling that early would definitely be outside the norm, 16's being much more popular and common....and for good reason. I'd ask to see the proof marks. There is NO FLY's on anything by Johann Springer if it's in any condition and most firearms from that era from Germany exhibit a quality we aren't used to seeing. I concur with Erich's pricing.


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This is a 12ga. single barrel over a 25/35. The condition is great. His asking price is $1000. This gun was bought into the US in 1925.

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Jump on it regardless of the chambering. I always thought the 25-35 was under rated as a deer cartridge and in a brake action you could load spire points if they will regulate. I like the 12 gauge for less expensive ammo even if the 16 is more traditional.


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vixen,

What you are describing is a O/U CAPE GUN, which was very likely made in Austria or Germany. - VERY FEW 12 gauge shotguns were made in Europe for "domestic use" in the pre-WWII period, though any number were made for export to Africa, British India & the Western Hemisphere.

To me, the most important thing before firing either barrel is to have the caliber/gauge/condition CAREFULLY CHECKED by a competent smith who KNOWS European combination guns & their "quirks".
(There are at least 2-3 other possibilities in .25 calibers for the rifle barrel, other than the .25-35WCF & more than one "case length" for shotshells, too. - Also, do NOT believe the marking on these European guns; remember that Europeans were just as likely to have "modified" weapons to non-standard calibers as USA owners are.)

Inasmuch as I've NOT seen the cape-gun, nonetheless, I would guess that it's worth 1,000-2,500 USD at a fair retail price.

yours, tex


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If it was brought it back in 1925, it wasn't a war souvenir and he more than likely has used it, so it sounds like he might had it made or was in the right spot at the right time. I'd jump on it in a minute. I have a fondness for combo guns also. $1000 is a very good price if the condition is as you say.

This is my travel gun, in fact it is about 10" over my head as I sit in the back of my RV typing this. See link

Brno 12ga/22 Sav. Highpower(5.6x52R) with a extra set of Tula choked skeet barrels

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/332/XG9jHC.jpg

Last edited by erich; 05/07/18.

After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska

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erich,

Fwiw, I have an Austrian drilling by Peterlongo in 20x20x.22SAV.
(I bought it from the son of the original owner in Munchen, in 1971. = The son said that his dad bought it about 1930 for small game up to roebuck, when he was a gamekeeper on a large private estate.)

Note: The original owner, whose name was Jacob E. Fuchs, was (according to his son) was a draftee, was later a CPL in the German Army in WWII & was thereafter appointed as a WACHTSMEISTER of the "New Germany" in 1946.
(WACHTSMEISTERS were the first "civil police", that were appointed after WWII.)

yours,tex

Last edited by satx78247; 05/08/18. Reason: addenda; typos

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Originally Posted by satx78247
vixen,

What you are describing is a O/U CAPE GUN, which was very likely made in Austria or Germany. - VERY FEW 12 gauge shotguns were made in Europe for "domestic use" in the pre-WWII period, though any number were made for export to Africa, British India & the Western Hemisphere.

To me, the most important thing before firing either barrel is to have the caliber/gauge/condition CAREFULLY CHECKED by a competent smith who KNOWS European combination guns & their "quirks".
(There are at least 2-3 other possibilities in .25 calibers for the rifle barrel, other than the .25-35WCF & more than one "case length" for shotshells, too. - Also, do NOT believe the marking on these European guns; remember that Europeans were just as likely to have "modified" weapons to non-standard calibers as USA owners are.)

Inasmuch as I've NOT seen the cape-gun, nonetheless, I would guess that it's worth 1,000-2,500 USD at a fair retail price.

yours, tex



It's actually not a cape gun. Cape guns are SXS, not O/U. It's a BBF (bockbuchesflinte). In German a cape gun is a buchesflinte.

The 12ga will be chambered for 65mm ammo of a low pressure. You should do OK using 2 3/4" light trap loads. They didn't chamber these guns in 2 3/4". The maker is one of the very best, and the price is good. Be sure to take off the forend, and with the gun closed sans forend shake it while holding the grip only. If you feel any movement it has a loose hinge pin, which could be costly to remedy. But, at that price if all else if very good the gun could still be worth the price.

I'd love to see some pics of it. cool

Last edited by luv2safari; 05/08/18.

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luv2safari; All,

YES, I know what the Germans call the various sorts of "combination guns", both SxS & (less commonly) O/U, whether 2,3,4 or even 5 shots. = I simply didn't confuse the issue by using the (quite different from USA) German nomenclature.
Note: When I went to school to get my German hunting license in 1970, one of the instructors showed us a SIX barreled combination gun. - 2 rifled barrels over 2 PAIRS of "stacked" double shotgun barrels.
(VERY heavy to carry in the field, imVho.)
I'm GUESSING that it was "an experiment" & likely was "one of one".

WAFFEN BENNEWITZ in "K-town" describes all 2-barreled long-arms, with one rifled & one smoothbore barrel, as Cape Guns.


Also, 65mm is 2.590 inches.= I therefore believe that firing 2.75" American shotshells may be "hazardous to your health" = It may be OK & it may not, depending on how the maker bored the shotgun barrel.
(I stand by my advice to have the combination gun, by any name, carefully inspected by a smith that KNOWS older European firearms. = I regard firing any antique firearm, absent a through inspection, as UNWISE & possibly dangerous.)

yours, tex


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It's been proven many times, by actual pressure-testing, that firing 2-3/4" ammo in chambers as short as 2-1/2" doesn't raise pressures. It has nothing to do with "how the maker bored the shotgun barrel." But this myth continues to wander along.

The only possible problem is modern ammo loaded to higher pressures than old guns can handle. But it has nothing to do with whether the chamber is 2-1/2" or 2.59".


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Mule Deer,

So if the OP follows your advice & damages the firearm & possibly himself because he didn't have his nearly century old firearm checked out by a competent gunsmith, are you going to take full financial responsibility for offering him your poor advice??

I know of a person who was seriously injured at Ramstein AFB Rod & Gun Club in 1971 by firing a shotgun in a short European 16-gauge chamber. - While I didn't actually SEE the incident, I did see the ambulance take him away to the ER.

yours, tex

Last edited by satx78247; 05/08/18. Reason: typo

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Did I say he shouldn't have his shotgun checked out? No. In fact I mentioned "modern ammo loaded to higher pressures than old guns can handle."

Again, NO tests have found any difference in pressure when 2-3/4" shotgun shells have been fired in 2.5" or 2.59" chambers. Read Gough Thomas on the subject, who published the info decades ago. But the same old BS keeps getting repeated, over and over again.

Just because you ALMOST saw a "short-chambered" shotgun blow up many years ago doesn't mean (much less prove) a short chamber was the cause. That line of logic is known as a false syllogism: A "short-chambered" shotgun blew up, therefore the cause was the "short" chambers. There are several other possible reasons, and based on what's been repeatedly proven about 2-3/4" ammo in "short" chambers, one of those would be the cause.


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My second shotgun ever owned was a 2 3/4” chambered 1100. In my youth, I never thought twice about shooting 3” shells in the gun. Other than an occasional ejection issue due to the added length of the expended 3” shell barely being able to clear the port. I never had an issue and shot probably thousands of rounds through the gun. I realize your issue is regarding an old gun and pressures are the general concern, but shell length in a shotgun, in my very limited experience, should not be an issue in a single shot.

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Mule Deer,

Fwiw, after reading your original post, I called C.E. Harris (who has forgotten more about firearms & loading than most of us here will ever know) & asked him about 2 3/4" shells in 65mm chambers.
His comment was, "Well, he may get away with that & he may well lose some fingers, too. Bad plan, in my opinion, as most of those old Euro barrels are thin & many of them are unsafe with any modern shells."

Reference: the fellow who lost his left hand to an exploding shotgun barrel, I'm going by what the ER doc said that caused the injury.

As for me, I'll be cautious & have all antique firearms CAREFULLY inspected by a competent smith before firing them.
(Fyi, I started collecting hammer combination guns of various sorts in 1969.)

Note: I have a "reissued for WWI" 1888 Commission Rifle that has the "S-marked chamber". Nonetheless, it was NOT re-bored to the standard 7.9x57mm (.323 bore) size. = It shoots .320 PBCB using 10 grains of Red Dot @ 1400FPS beautifully.

just my OPINION, tex

Last edited by satx78247; 05/08/18. Reason: addenda

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I spend a lot of time over at Doublegun and this comes up quite often and I gather it does raise pressure, how can it not when your openning the crimp into a much smaller area and have to compress the charge to get through it. The amount of increase might not be large but it might be enough that shells loaded to max pressure then go over. Why take a chance with a fine old gun that is nearly irreplaceable. 2 1/2" shells are readily available(RST, Vintagers, Kent and others) plus BP has plenty of data as do some of the powder companies. MEC Makes an adaptor to load 2 1/2" fold crimp shell on their presses(I load 2 1/2" 16ga and 12ga on my MEC 600). Roll crimp heads are also available from a few suppliers and you can load new primed hulls without a press, new 2 1/2" hulls available from a couple of places).

I don't even bother with 2 3/4" shells anymore as 2 1/2' work just fine in my 2 3/4 and 3" guns. My duck/pheasant load is 7/8 or 1 oz of ITX or Bismuth or 1 oz of lead 5's where I can use it, coyotes get either and ounce of NP BB's in the 16ga or 1 1/4 ounce of the same in the 12. 3/4 ounce of lead 8's break clays in either.


Last edited by erich; 05/09/18.

After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska

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erich,

AQUILA out of Mexico makes 2" shotshells in 12 & 20 gauge in buckshot, #4, #6 & in 7 1/2 shot or at least the company did the last time that I got a flyer from them. - Those shells should work fine in a double-barrel, presuming that the tubes are in sound condition.

yours, tex


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The myth began with Major Sir Gerald Burrard, one of the top shotgun writers of his era. In the second of his set of books on THE MODERN SHOTGUN, published in 1931, Burrard states that it’s “distinctly dangerous to fire 2-3/4 inch 12-bore cartridges in a gun chambered for the ordinary 2-1/2 inch cases.” Yet he provides no other proof other than that statement.

Later on another famous British shotgun writer, Gough Thomas, took on this myth. He wrote about it in magazines, and later in GOUGH THMOAS’S GUN BOOK, published in 194. Since he has a lot more to say than Burrard, I’ll extract the pertinent parts:

“But in the particular case cited by Burrard, the main danger arises, not from the constriction when the cartridge is fired, but from the fact that the longer-cased cartridges he had in mind invariably carried heavier loads, and heavier loads…of necessity involve higher pressures. It is, in fact, pressure that causes the danger: no gun was ever burst by a cartridge case….To satisfy myself on this point, I arranged some years ago for a test to be carried out.”

In the test, Eley 2-3/4” ammo was fired in both 2-1/2” chambered and 2-3/4” chambered barrels. Thomas provides a table showing the results, and in both barrels the pressure and velocity results are practically identical.

But Burrard’s untested myth lives on today, as evidenced by this thread. This isn’t unheard of, because once faulty information becomes established by a popular “authority” it’s extremely difficult to dislodge. I even known people in the American ammo business who were surprised when they ran the same basic tests, with results identical to Gough Thomas’s. The most recent test one I heard about was performed by Winchester Ammunition used an old 2.59” chambered 16-gauge Sauer—in which 2-3/4” ammo produced the same industry pressure and velocity specs as it did when shot in 2-3/4” chambers.

The reason pressures don’t rise is a 2-1/2” or 2.59” chamber’s forcing cone is long enough to contain the unfolded crimp of a 2-3/4” shotgun shell. Thus the wads and shot are NOT constricted inside the actual bore by the case. Yet despite plenty of pressure-tested proof going back more than half a century, this myth continues to march on.

satx78247 , while I have plenty of respect for C.E. Harris, he may or may be aware of the pressure tests I cite. As noted above, even many professionals in the gun business don’t.

Erich, so you “gather” from Doublegun “it does raise pressure.” I’ve spent some time on that site now and then, and would be very interested if any of the people you “gathered” it from provided any proof. My guess is they’re still parroting Burrard, even if they don’t know he’s the original source of the myth.

Again, here is my original post on this thread:
“It's been proven many times, by actual pressure-testing, that firing 2-3/4" ammo in chambers as short as 2-1/2" doesn't raise pressures. It has nothing to do with "how the maker bored the shotgun barrel." But this myth continues to wander along.
The only possible problem is modern ammo loaded to higher pressures than old guns can handle. But it has nothing to do with whether the chamber is 2-1/2" or 2.59".”


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Mule Deer,

I don't know Mr. Gough but do know Mr. Harris very well. - Pardon me for taking Mr. Harris' opinion as a known expert in firearms, generally & in loads/reloading, in specific, over the opinion of a person that I don't know anything about nor do I have any personal knowledge of his procedures/testing protocols.

yours, tex


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My short answer to the 2.5 vs 2 3/4 chamber lengths....I don't know. I find it difficult to not believe pressure tests. I'm also not going to shoot 2 3/4 shells in any of my old guns whether it's safe or not. What I do know is part of the romance of the older guns that appeals to me is their short chambers but, I'm a bit of a romantic at heart. Much preferring to go to the effort to shoot in it what a firearm was designed for. For a long time, long before 2 1/2 in. shells were again available, I've been cutting back 2 3/4 hulls to 2 1/2 length and roll crimping them with an OSC. Why go to all that trouble if 2 3/4 shells will work? Because that's what the chamber was cut for, I enjoy doing it and they work just fine for any application I have for a shotgun. That and I am not about to have the chamber lengthened on any of my old German guns. I did that with my first drilling nearly 30 years ago and regretted it ever since. Had I known at the time how easy it is to make 2 1/2 in shells it never would have happened.

The argument over Damascus barrels is similar. Old wives tales say one thing, pressure tests another.

With my home rolled shells it's also kind of fun when youngsters, that's anyone under the age of about 40-45, look at my shells and question the OSC and a roll crimp. "Where did you get those" is a common question. Or, "I've never seen anything like that". 'Course, I get that a lot, whether shotgun or rifle and the ammo for either.


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