So much misinformation from the POGs that probably never used an M-16 on personnel targets. Yeah, I heard all the anecdotes about the M-16 and found 99% to be utter BS. Only problem was keeping it clean and did have a Colt bolt carrier crack apart once. The GM Hydramatic Div. rifle was a good un. Happy Trails
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Certain FMJ bullets do fragment violently, others do not. I have shots a wide variety of 223/5.56 FMJs into jackrabbits, coyotes, and other varmints. Every surplus or remanufactured 5.56 FMJ in 55gr and 62gr I have shot does fragment at moderate ranges and make great game bullets. In my expersince, any of the bi-metal jacketed bullets don’t fragment at all (Wolf, Barnaul, etc.)
Yeah completely bullchit. Modern 5.56 neeeever tumbles....if there were only a reputable source doing scientific tests to demonstrate the Lazer like path a 5.56 makes when traveling in tissue. It was all a dream...
Messing around on ranges on Ft. Bragg taught me a lot about the M193 ball ammo. Going downrange, you'd often find the bullets laying on top of the ground, bent into a U shape at the cannelure, or in some cases, like shooting up an old target vehicle, sticking halfway out of a tire on an old deuceandahalf. I knew thing would be different on flesh, of course, but I sure wasn't impressed with it's penetrating power on something besides meat. It was a nice lesson to learn. It kept me careful.
I was long gone before the M855 ball ammo came out, so I can offer no opinions on that stuff.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
So much misinformation from the POGs that probably never used an M-16 on personnel targets. Yeah, I heard all the anecdotes about the M-16 and found 99% to be utter BS. Only problem was keeping it clean and did have a Colt bolt carrier crack apart once. The GM Hydramatic Div. rifle was a good un. Happy Trails
I found the Colts and H&Rs to be better rifles than the Hydromatics, but they were ALL built to spec, so I suppose you can't really pick on any one manufacturer.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
I helped take care of around 300 gun shot wounds 24-36 hrs post wound while in Germany. All manners of FMJ from many different cartridges. My impression is that FMJs are unpredictable in wound size and path. Erratic behavior as compared to a good partition or TSX type bullet. Most wounds were small in diameter but took some crazy paths. In all though, much more survivable than a good expanding bullet.
I almost freaked when I looked inside the forearm half of my Basic Training (Army) M16A1 and it read "Made by Mattel". I also noticed how a not so hard wind would blow my bullet off the 300M silhouette about 3 ft! The wind at Grafenvoehr, Germany blew it 6 feet over, onto the next grunts target! I kept an eye on the spare M60 in the supply truck in case those Krazy Ivans came across the border!
How many targets in any war zone are over 100 meters? Dam few and they are for the other weapons.
] How many targets in any war zone are over 100 meters? Dam few and they are for the other weapons.
Not that his statement was correct, but the above isn’t either. Shots past 100m are extremely common. The issue is the current, as issued, M4A1 and current ammo (M855A1) is not mechanically capable of hitting realistic (8-10”) sized targets past about 100m.
However, a properly setup, modern M4 derivative using ammo that currently is in the inventory IS capable of consistently hitting realistic sized targets out to 600+/- meters.
Whether you want to believe it or not the early M-16’s were a death sentence to US troops. They were POS’s. It had nothing to do with cleaning or oiling. It had to do with [bleep] equipment and [bleep] ammo.
If you were not there GFY.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
Whether you want to believe it or not the early M-16’s were a death sentence to US troops. They were POS’s. It had nothing to do with cleaning or oiling. It had to do with [bleep] equipment and [bleep] ammo.
If you were not there GFY.
Your post infers you were in Vietnam during the early years. If so, thank you for your service!
Indeed the early M-16s without the forward assist and the deadly combination of the old type oil and dirty ball powder contributed to jamming.
Happy Trails
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Just my .02$. I think the 5.56 is wicked if the speed is up there, once it slows down.. Throw in the different twist rates and you have an eradic bullet.
] How many targets in any war zone are over 100 meters? Dam few and they are for the other weapons.
Not that his statement was correct, but the above isn’t either. Shots past 100m are extremely common. The issue is the current, as issued, M4A1 and current ammo (M855A1) is not mechanically capable of hitting realistic (8-10”) sized targets past about 100m.
However, a properly setup, modern M4 derivative using ammo that currently is in the inventory IS capable of consistently hitting realistic sized targets out to 600+/- meters.
What's your preferred ammo in the inventory for use in the M4?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
I almost freaked when I looked inside the forearm half of my Basic Training (Army) M16A1 and it read "Made by Mattel". I also noticed how a not so hard wind would blow my bullet off the 300M silhouette about 3 ft! The wind at Grafenvoehr, Germany blew it 6 feet over, onto the next grunts target! I kept an eye on the spare M60 in the supply truck in case those Krazy Ivans came across the border!
You shot the next guy's target. Unless the wind just happened to be blowing 60mph, which is what it takes to blow the M193 six feet at 300 meters.
As for Mattel, there's never been any proof, other than anecdotes by guys who claim they saw them, come to the surface that Mattel made handguards (and they sure as hell didn't make M16s).
Hmmm.
Originally Posted by Archerhunter
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
The issue is the current, as issued, M4A1 and current ammo (M855A1) is not mechanically capable of hitting realistic (8-10”) sized targets past about 100m.
Yeah?
Originally Posted by Archerhunter
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
Whether you want to believe it or not the early M-16’s were a death sentence to US troops. They were POS’s. It had nothing to do with cleaning or oiling. It had to do with [bleep] equipment and [bleep] ammo.
If you were not there GFY.
Early version fueled with ball powder wasn't worth a hoot, no argument there. I don't know when the issues were rectified, but per my experience beginning in May of '69 the problems were fixed and I never had a problem with the -16 or CAR 15 in 2.5 years. Never heard a complaint from any of the troops I served with either. Charlie would have bitched probably, assuming he'd lived to tell the tale.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
What's your preferred ammo in the inventory for use in the M4?
MK262 Mod1 for distance, 62gr SOST for general purpose. There is ammo that is not available or used by conventional and general special operations personnel that is extremely effective from 0-500+ meters.
M855A1 is acceptable in tissue, but like M855 (Greentip) is extremely inaccurate
Originally Posted by Crockettnj
Yeah?
Yes. Precision spec for M855A1 is the same as it was for M855- 6.8 MOA Mean Radius. Note: that is mean radius, not extreme spread. It was not unusual to get lots of M855 that grouped 8+ inches for 10 rounds at 100 yards. Early lots of M855A1 were better at around 3.5 MOA, however they are getting worse and the last few I have shot were 4.5 to 5 MOA from match barreled guns, and 6+ from M4’s. Combine 5-6 MOA groups with an non-free floated barrel, and you aren’t reliably hitting vitals past about 100 from good positions. Throw a VFG on the rail and use it, or rest on the hood of a truck, or use a a barricade and you’ll get 12-18 MOA shifts in point of impact. That’s all provided you actually got a real zero. The way the Army, Navy, and Airforce zero, and to a slightly lessor extent the Marines ensures that you aren’t going to reliably hit anything between 75-300 anyways. Then combine the current general issue optics (Acoq)..... it goes downhill from there.
In contrast a properly setup M4 (SOCOM Block II, URG-I, etc) with MK262 zeroed correctly will keep it’s rounds in the vitals out to 450-500 yards mechanically.
I also noticed how a not so hard wind would blow my bullet off the 300M silhouette about 3 ft! The wind at Grafenvoehr, Germany blew it 6 feet over, onto the next grunts target! I kept an eye on the spare M60 in the supply truck in case those Krazy Ivans came across the border! 
