Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 45-70 vs 450 Marlin Velocities

I am finally winding up with a 1895G in 45-70. I should have it this week or early next week. I have eyeing one for a long time.

I know a rifle chambered in 45-70 is the prefered starting point for the big chambering, because it has more room in the action than the 450 Marlins.

This leads me to beleive the 45-70 has a bit more case capacity. If so, then why are the lever gun loads shown for the 45-70 less than the 450 Marlin loads? I expect this in the Hornday manual, but the Barnes shows the same thing.

Is the 450 Marlin brass stronger? Does everyone's actual chronographed loads reflect what the loading manuals publish?

Also, anyone have any full-throttle hard casr bullet loads?

Look at the 2006 Hodgdon Annual Manual. You will see both the 45-70 and 450 Marlin loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns. With those loads there isn't much difference between them. Much of the 45-70 load data found in the manuals are 28,000 or 35,000 CUP loads, while the safe operating pressure of the 45-70 in the Marlin 1895 is 40,000 CUP.

Modern 45-70 cases are suitable for any pressures safe in modern guns. Winchester once told me their's were strong enough for any 'standard cartridge' presssure levels including the .25-06 and .270 levels.

The greater capacity of the 45-70 case should make it possible to duplicate any 450 Marlin load while yielding slightly LOWER pressures. The lower limits of 45-70 ammo are because of the many older, weaker guns they might possibly find their way into.

Personally, I wish Marlin had designed a new cartridge chamber that would have permitted BOTH 45-70 cases and the newer design to be chambered in the new guns while prohibiting the newer higher pressure round from being chambered in the standard 45-70 chamber.

Rick Jamison compared the two cartridges in Shooting Times, July 2000. He reported that the 45-70 has a water capacity of 83.1 grs, vs. 76.8 grs for the 450 Marlin. This is an 8% difference. The Marlin cartridge has thicker, stronger brass, perhaps more than is really needed for a 43,500psi cartridge. I suspect that the 45-70 would compare very favorably with the 450 Marlin if loaded to equivalent pressures.

Here is a cast load to consider (a real thumper!!):
Bullet = 525 WLNGC
Powder = H4895
Wt = 52.5 grs
MV = 1820
ME = 3975 ft lbs
Pressure = <40,000 psi
(Source: Beartooth Bullets)

Rick Jamison compared the two cartridges in Shooting Times, July 2000. He reported that the 45-70 has a water capacity of 83.1 grs, vs. 76.8 grs for the 450 Marlin. This is an 8% difference. The Marlin cartridge has thicker, stronger brass, perhaps more than is really needed for a 43,500psi cartridge. I suspect that the 45-70 would compare very favorably with the 450 Marlin if loaded to equivalent pressures.

Here is a cast load to consider (a real thumper!!):
Bullet = 525 WLNGC
Powder = H4895
Wt = 52.5 grs
MV = 1820 fps
ME = 3975 ft lbs
Pressure = <40,000 psi
(Source: Beartooth Bullets)

I wouldn't feel undergunned hunting much of anything with that load..........

I suspect one would need to be careful about shooting into a herd of critters - might get several with one shot. The S.D. for the 525 gr bullet is .358. Beartooth lists another bullet, that is of similar form and weighs 425 grs - a "Junior Thumper" as it were! It would probably be very effective and more pleasant to shoot.

You are right about that! A letter from a buffalo camp in the 1870's said that when the big Sharps guns hit a buff at 800 yds, it was NOT at all uncommon for the bullet to go completely through one buff and kill another. Those big slugs just do NOT want to stop. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

It figures, Blaine. You chose the 45-70, while I've had a 450 for several years. Will we ever agree on anything? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Actually, you're pretty much on with what you've said about these two. Jackfish knows his stuff about them, too, so you can pretty much go with what he's said.

The 45-70 does have a slight (very slight) case capacity advantage. We have discussed this ad nausium for several years here. For the most part there isn't spit difference between them.

In the new pointed soft tip rounds they're being loaded by the factory with a definite advantage to the 450. Since you can't get the componets to reload, the 450 has the advantage for now. With reloads and with max loads for each, the 45-70 should normally tip the speed scale just slightly (what, 25 to 50 fps?) to its favor.

And the only reason to push a very heavy bullet faster is to get it to fly a little flatter for what? -- 150 -200 yards? Older is better, Sanlen -- don't you know that??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My grand daughter wouldn't think so..... Unless she meant me, of course.

But hey, I hear a lot of people are still using those flint knives up there in Canukland to take grizzley with <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On the Leverevolution ammo not only is the 45-70 verses 450 Marlin debate revamped, but the 444 verses 45-70 as well.

Marlin lists the 45-70:
45-70 LEVERevolution 325 GR
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
2050/3032 1729/2158 1450/1516 1225/1083

Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -4.1 -27.8


The 450 Marlin at:
450 Marlin 325 gr Evolution 82750
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
2225/3572 1887/2569 1585/1813 1331/1278

Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -2.2 -21.3


Meanwhile, the 444 Marlin with a 265 grain bullet is:
444 Marlin 265 gr Evolution 82744
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
2325/3180 1971/2285 1652/1606 1380/1120

Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -1.4 -18.6

The 444 Leverevolution hits harder (more ft lbs), faster and flater than the 45-70 version ANYWHERE from muzzel out past 300 yards.

Of course, these are published data. Haven't talked to anyone yet who's chrono'ed it for their self.


And it's important to note that this is with a 325 grain slug in the 45-70/450 Marlin. When the 420 Garret Hammerhead in 45-70 is used we see:

420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS

(RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, RUGER, MARLIN, NEF, AND SHILOH SHARPS RIFLES)

ENERGY: 3200 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 51; MEPLAT: .330"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-CUP; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .287; TRAJECTORY: +3" @ 100-YDS; ZERO @ 150-YDS; -7" @ 200-YDS


In other words, the Garret Hammerhead 420 grain 45-70 load beats the 444 Marlin Leverevolution 265 grain load by 20 ft-lbs at the muzzle, and is beat by the 444 load everywhere else.


I'm not sure how this compares when it comes to actual animal hits, but this is something I have to try. This would give me a usable 100 + yards out of either of my BRF handguns (444 or 450), and make almost 300 yard shooters out of my Marlins of either caliber (I like 10 inch drops max for range). Has anybody had the opportunity to do any shot tests themselves with these yet? I'm curious how the penetration compares.

For some odd reason, most published .450 Marlin velocities are from a 24" test bbl. I find this real strange since 24" bbl. in the real world are pretty rare. At any rate, genral rule of thumb is about25-35fps per inch of bbl. length. Its not a perfect guesstemate, but itll give u ideas as to where your velocities are most likeley to be.
The entire reason for the .450 was to get the performance from the 45-70 that handloaders had been geetin without runnin afoul of SAAMI, or runnin into the situation that plagued Winchester some time ago. You might recall that Win created a line of high performance cartridges for the 92 that also fit in weaker guns. They did the same thing for the 45-90, by the way. This caused all kinds of trouble, so they quit.
Maybe Marlin/Hornady learned from history?
The 45-70 is a low pressure cartridge. Any SAAMI manufacturer must stick to that. The .450 was started out as a high pressure cartridge from the start. The reason for the .450s oal is simply that the 336 style action used by Marin today cannot accept cartridges longer than 2.550" without modification.
The reason the .450 peaks out at 43,500psi is that is the 100% strength limit for the 336 with modern steels.
The .450 brass is darn beefy, should withstand a number of reloads.
There are some good cast loads, depending on what u want to do with em.
Good luck n good shootin

Blaine-

I just got off the phone and ordered a '95 GG too; have always wanted one also. I think one of the beauties of the .45-70 is that without handloading you can shoot very mild loads up to quality full power loads.

I don't need one but there are times elk hunting in the timber it would just be the cat's meow and I would love to drop a big bull with one.

The 450 and the 45-70 are very good choices and both are about equal in the real world. I have never had a 450 but I presently own two 45-70 Guide Guns, one blued and one stainless.If your butt was about to be chomped by a big bear I think any one of us lever lovers would be glad to have a 45-70 or a 450 to throw a big chunk of lead at it.

Blaine-did you ever get that Guide rifle running? If so hows it going with it and what did you set it up with for sights?

I had 2 Guides in 45/70 both were crazy accurate and both had Ghost rider peeps and fiber optic fronts.

Neat rigs!

Mark D

I very much doubt the .444 with a 265-gr bullet hits harder than the .45-70 load you're comparing it to. You're using the ft-lbs comparison which everyone knows favors velocity (squares it) over mass (265 vs. 325-gr). Ft-lbs. of energy is Ok for a relative measure of comparison as long as you realize that fact... but higher ft-lbs automatically means "hits harder"? Nope. And especially the 265-gr .444 in comparison with the 420-gr Hammerhead out of a .45-70. I'm not belittling the .444 at all just don't accept those numbers as the basis for stating it hits harder than the .45-70.

Much of African tradition in useful cartridges is based on the very successful use of heavy slugs at moderate velocity (the British Express cartridges, etc.) over lighter weight bullets at high velocity.

+1. And besides that, comparing the POS bullet in the Hornady Leverevolution load to a Garrett Hammerhead is a complete joke, regardless of WHAT the energy figures say. Bullet selection over-rides it....

This is a pretty old argument. Buy either load em up and go hunting.

I had the scout scope and rear peep set up for a while and just reverted to an old 1.5X Weaver with post reticle and the open sights. I like this much better. Mine is in 450 and it hits like a freight train. The lever-revolution load is great for deer and makes these rifles a bit more versatile. Looking forward to the component bullet, Hornady interlocks work well from deer to elk and maybe a moose with side shots.

In my testing the 300 Nosler is the most versatile choice from deer to bears. 2200 ft/sec from the 16" of unported barrell of my 450. Expands down to low speeds and penetrates better than standard 400 grain bullets, even bonded versions. The 350 Hornady FN is a pretty great choice as well, very well made for the velocity.

Not sure what the hard cast heavy loads are for but some seem to like them. I'd prefer expansion as the 300 Nosler penetrates well enough even for buffalo unless you want to shoot them in the bum.

Can't argue with the 300 NosPart.....but I'm trying to get my buddy to switch from his 350gr Hornady RN to a 300gr Uni-cor for our upcoming bear hunt.......