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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,601 |
I find myself not the least bit concerned with this. Why? Should I be? I havent monkeyed with any of this new stuff. Heck I think newest CF ctg i have somewhere around here is a .223 Rem ctg bolt rifle. But it is of very little importance to me what rifles and ctgs other folks enjoy shooting and reloading! Shoot what you enjoy shooting! Hunt with the rifle/ctg combo you enjoy hunting with!
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,131
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
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175 grains for the 308?
So much for a fair comparison That's the standard military sniper load for the 308. Other bullets won't do near as well for long range, especially regarding wind drift. To get decent BCs with a 30 cal bullet, you need something around that weight minimum. Go ahead and post the ballistics for your preferred load, then we can compare... 7mm-08 150 ELDX BC .574 2790 fps MV There's my preferred load. P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,734 |
Funnier than fhuqk,that Whining Clueless Fhuqks are trying to brag up MK 248 Mod 1 and 220 Sugars at 2850fps.
That's very generous of you. WTF gets 2,850 fps out of a .308 with 220gr MKs? Anyway, as I've said before and you have so aptly illustrated, you can just about throw darts at a list and come up with a better long range cartridge than the 308. Leave Stumpy alone... He has cut and pasted a lot more than usual, which means he's drunk this morning.... At least I see his Lab spell checked things for him... Poor dog gets embarrassed to have an owner that spells worse than the average dog... while thinking he's smarter than everyone else on the planet..
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,513 |
Neighbors are far between out this way, but one of ours did some shooting with a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser here (ancient old thing) and later read this thread. He said it would be interesting if a knowledgeable owner of the newfangled and highly praised 6.5 Creedmore would bring it up here and run it against that old Mauser. He might have something there. I would think anybody that extolls the virtues of the 6.5 Swede would see the value in the Creed version. You would seem to think accurately - he recognizes some value there and I acknowledged some earlier. There also seems to be a big difference between noting close comparability and proclaiming significant superiority. Must be another hair somewhere on that gnat's butt.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,513 |
A thread here about a contemporary cartridge design and its potential acceptance seems a good opportunity for inquiries, comparisons and assessing the efficacy of the thing. For some it appears to be a springboard to express useless insults, feigned humor, and vulgarity.
Some like to learn new stuff and use the power of new and prior knowledge in assessments.
Then too, fads and craving for the "next big thing" seem to bring out less useful stuff in some folks - or maybe some posters are simply unhappy, negative souls who get jollies from trying to insult or bash others for no good reason. Revealing, either way, but one has to wonder why some show up as they do.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Joined: Jul 2013
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2013
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... it would be interesting if a knowledgeable owner of the newfangled and highly praised 6.5 Creedmore would bring it up here and run it against that old Mauser. He might have something there. I would think anybody that extolls the virtues of the 6.5 Swede would see the value in the Creed version. Not if your head is stuck on 130 year old rifle & action designs. Granted that the 6.5x55 Swede is an old cartridge but the two rifles that I own chambered for it are roughly 9 years old and 6 years old. For some reason that old cartridge seems to have survived for quite a few years.
It's official. I missed the selfie deadline so I'm Maser's sock puppet because rene and the Polish half of the fubar twins have decided that I am.
ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ μολὼν λαβέ
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 766
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 766 |
Neighbors are far between out this way, but one of ours did some shooting with a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser here (ancient old thing) and later read this thread. He said it would be interesting if a knowledgeable owner of the newfangled and highly praised 6.5 Creedmore would bring it up here and run it against that old Mauser. He might have something there. I would think anybody that extolls the virtues of the 6.5 Swede would see the value in the Creed version. You would seem to think accurately - he recognizes some value there and I acknowledged some earlier. There also seems to be a big difference between noting close comparability and proclaiming significant superiority. Must be another hair somewhere on that gnat's butt. The 6.5x55 certainly does fine loaded to modern pressures. What it won't do is fit in a short action, which the military has standardized on since the introduction of the 7.62x51 in the '50s. The PIC is going to be fielded on the AR-10 platform, which is short action. The .260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor were really the only reasonable candidate rounds for the PIC. The 6.5x47 Lapua is essentially just a slightly lower capacity twin of the Creedmoor.
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 766 |
While we are talking about this, (and that chart) lets put a guess on how many 1000M shots are made by standard battle rifles in actual field conditions... ??.... Anyone? Don't they have rifles for that? What's the avg. distance of kills in combat? Under 300 yards? If we are strictly focusing on long range kills, I'd put my money on the tried and true 300 Win Mag.  If we are talking about the avg. field rifle for troops, how many are even qualified to make 1000M kills? Part of the PIC requirement has nothing to do with long range shooting, but let's address long range first. Every Army squad and Marine platoon (at least that's my guess from some quick searching, any Marines want to clarify the role of the DM in that branch?) has a Designated Marksman. To quote Wikipedia: The DM's role is to supply rapid accurate fire on enemy targets at ranges up to a maximum of 1,100 yards (1,000 m) with a rifle capable of semi-automatic fire called a designated marksman rifle equipped with a telescopic sight. Like snipers, DMs are trained in quick and precise shooting, but unlike the more specialized "true" sniper, they are an intrinsic part of an infantry fireteam and intended to lay down accurate rapid fire at valuable targets as needed, thus extending the reach of the fireteam. Currently the DMR rifles are either M-4s, which are fairly pathetic for that role, or M-14s which use the 308/7.62x51. Thus the comparison that begins this thread. The platform initially intended to use the 6.5 CM is the AR-10, so the 300 Win Mag is a non-starter - and it wouldn't be optimal in terms of recoil anyhow. One important factor is time to reacquire targets after the shot. Getting back to the other PIC requirement, that is penetration in order to defeat the best current body armor. Regardless of range a similarly constructed bullet of similar weight and energy from the 6.5 CM will outpenetrate the 308 Win. That's why it (or some similarly performing caseless round) may eventually supplant the 5.56, because even at moderate ranges the 5.56 doesn't have enough penetration. The improved wounding/incapacitation from the 6.5 CM over the 5.56 is also worth considering.
Last edited by PreciousLiberty; 05/28/18.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,385 |
Am not a military guy and claim no expertise regarding US military rifle/machine gun issues, but the cartridge/rifle saga played out since the 30:06 days seems to demo clearly that there is no "perfect" single cartridge for whatever "they" (whomever that may be) think they need. That alone makes it difficult to take such a piece very seriously.
Beyond that, and although the 6.5 Creedmore seems to be just fine and may be about as good as other cartridges in that caliber range, its overall performance is not significantly better than existing cartridges of the class. It is difficult for a somewhat experienced old-timer like me to understand the craze. Is it simply advertising/marketing - or folks who simply need the next new/good thing? Numbers don't lie, nor does actual testing. If guys in white hats can score more hits on guys with black hats using a Creedmoor, I'm more than happy. No craze, no fad, no marketing. Also no reason for so many to get butt hurt. $20 says Christ would shoot a Creedmoor. Lol...none of this would be an issue if the ,270 was developed in '06. What you don’t get is that if the 6.5 Creedmoor was developed in ‘06 the evolution of the cartridge would have stopped right there. There is no need for any other cartridge. And now the Campfire has shifted all the hype from fast twist to 6.5 Creedmoor. When will the rest of the world catch up?
I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 766 |
175 grains for the 308?
So much for a fair comparison That's the standard military sniper load for the 308. Other bullets won't do near as well for long range, especially regarding wind drift. To get decent BCs with a 30 cal bullet, you need something around that weight minimum. Go ahead and post the ballistics for your preferred load, then we can compare... 7mm-08 150 ELDX BC .574 2790 fps MV There's my preferred load. And a fine load it is...except the discussion is about the 308/7.62x51, not the 7mm-08. :-)
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Joined: May 2017
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Campfire Regular
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,710 |
I sure don't mind the military going to the 6.5CM.
If they do, it will also mean a "Mil Spec" AR10 platform. That has been badly needed for awhile.
I like the cartridge. I like the ballistics.
But it carries with it some of the same concerns that made the AR10 less desirable than the M16. Weight of ammo, rounds per battle issue per man, weight of rifle, increased recoil...etc. Given those concerns, could they be addressed by a 6mm round that would still provide the desired step up from 5.56 performance? It seems that a step up (from 5.56) is a good thing, but I wonder if some type of 6mm may be perfectly adequate on “human size” targets without some of the compromises that a 6.5 will have - weight, round count, etc.
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,513 |
Lol...none of this would be an issue if the ,270 was developed in '06.
- - - What you don’t get is that if the 6.5 Creedmoor was developed in ‘06 the evolution of the cartridge would have stopped right there. There is no need for any other cartridge. - - Right there is an example of a guy enjoyably pulling a leg with tongue in cheek - and an example of someone who “knows” what was being thought over 100 years ago, what would or would not have happened in the meantime, and what we do or don't need with regard to cartridge development. Keen exposure of some telling human behaviors.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Campfire Savant
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Campfire Savant
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 151,108 |
There are 6.5 Creedmoor’s walking up and down the street in my neighborhood makin sure there is at least one Creedmoor in every house!!!!
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,914
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,914 |
As for control in an M1A it is easy to keep on target.
I think that it would be no harder to control in a AR-10 platform,the 243 has not been a problem.
And for the record i don't own one at this time but have shot several autos and bolts.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 17,230
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 17,230 |
There are 6.5 Creedmoor’s walking up and down the street in my neighborhood makin sure there is at least one Creedmoor in every house!!!! I had to pull the blinds...it was too upsetting! I'm not going to watch their show on TeeVee, either! 
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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