Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 1909 Argentine Mauser - Educate Me

Gentlemen:

Can someone tell me about this action? Any pros or cons?

Thanks

RM

Arguably the best of the 98s. The only "con" I can possibly mention is weight, everything else is pure perfection.

Do you think the FMAP (Argentine made) actions are as good as the German?

Agreed. Wonderful action. I wish I had one stashed away for a rainy day....

Had one, a Calvary Carbine, made by DWM, Berlin. About the smoothest bot action I ever saw. Always wanted to use that action, but since the rifle was all matching numbers, I decided it was better for a collector. Sold it, and have since wished I hadn't.

Certainly one of the best 98 actions ever made.

Thanks. This is interesting. I read somewhere that the Argentine Mausers had "soft" steel or something like that. Perhaps it was the difference between Argentine and DWM manufacture. I can't remember.

Are they large or small ring actions?

Large ring.

They are large ring.

I think of the 1909 Berlin made action as one of the very best you can use for custom guns. I have done everything from 25-06s to 404 Jeffery on them. I wish I had about 30 of them laying around.

If you get one of the Argentine made action that is soft, they are still good for building but you need to carburize the receiver for high strength for use with most modern cartridges. Smooth it up with lapping sticks first so it's surfaces are slick. When you are done with the case hardening those smooth surfaces make the bolt feel like greased glass.

Thanks for that like. Very interesting.

Way back when a large shop in Silver Spring, MD had a bunch of them, complete with test targets, for $175 each. Like a big dummy, I didn't buy any.

I've read that they can be soft, and need to have the headspace checked, and maybe the bolt hardness just behind the lugs as well. Any competent Mauser smith would know what to do there.

A big part of the attraction of the 1909s, aside from the excellent condition they're often in, is the nice bottom metal. A lot were scavenged for that alone, I believe.

Getting the itch again, Parson?

Well, I have this scope with nothing to put it on....

Ha! Got you.😛

Mike,

1909's are VERY well-machined Mauser 98 military actions, but several others are also very good. However, one reason 1909's are very smooth is they tend to be soft, so often require heat-treating before serious use.

A few decades ago, the big deal about 1909's wasn't their smoothness but their hinged floorplates. Believe it or not, back then even some big-name custom gunsmiths (in those days primarily meaning they made fancy walnut stocks) built rifles on mil-surp 98 actions with "standard" bottom metal, meaning a slide-off floorplate. Others did replace the military magazine, but back then you could order aftermarket hinged-floorplate 98 magazines for pretty reasonable prices from a number of companies. Today far fewer companies make aftermarket hinged-floorplate 98 magazines, and charge quite a bit more for them.

It's been very interesting to observe the changes in the military-Mauser market over those decades. After World War Two military 98's were pretty cheap and abundant, but today they've become scarce, and so have rifle loonies who consider military Mauser actions top-of-the-line for custom rifles.

Of course, some of that's because the trends of custom rifles have changed. Nowadays most customs are built on new "accuracy" actions, with after-market synthetic stocks, instead of 98 Mausers and pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester actions. The relatively few remaining traditional custom gunsmiths tend to charge quite a bit to make rifles, and if they do by chance use a 1909 action are almost certain to replace the military hinged-floorplate magazine with an aftermarket magazine costing several hundred dollars--partly because customers like to talk about all the nifty features of their custom rifles, including the high-grade aftermarket floorplate. (Of course, this is also true of shooters who buy "modern" custom rifles, who also tend to list the manufacturers of all the parts, including action, stock, trigger, barrel, and Picatinny rail.)

Back when mil-surp 98 Mausers were relatively cheap, the hinged floorplate was a big deal because it saved money when putting together a hunting rifle. These days 1909 actions are not only pretty expensive, but intact 1909 rifles have become more valuable to military collectors than as a source for military actions. If somebody does come across a 1909 action suitable for turning into a sporter, it's like to cost as much as a pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester action, and the work necessary to turn it into a hunting action also pricey--partly because it's considered standard procedure to replace the floorplate, heat-treat the action, fit a 3-position Model 70-type safety, and maybe even weld small steel blocks of steel to the top of the action to turn it into a "double square bridge" 98 Mauser, because it simply won't do to attach screw-on scope-mount bases. By the time all that gets done, a 1909 alone can cost several thousand dollars.

I've owned several 1909's over the years, including complete military rifle and old-style custom hunting rifles made before replacing the floorplate was considered necessary, and a simple scope-friendly Buehler safety lever was considered adequate, instead of installing a Model 70 safety. At one point a few years ago I was even considering ordering a super-custom rifle made on a 1909 action from a top maker, which would have cost as much as a new compact car. Eventually I decided that was nuts, partly because like a new car, the rifle's value would drop considerably upon delivery.

These days I tend to simply buy a controlled-feed Model 70 of some sort, because they can be found with the same basic array of features as a tricked-out 1909 for far less money. But for the few remaining traditional custom-rifle loonies, a 1909 is considered top of the line.

John,

While you're up, do you have any experience with the Dayton-Traister triggers for Mausers? Wieland said some good stuff about them recently.

I'd pick up an HVA 1640 or some such version thereof and rock on.

John's comment are 100% on the money; it simply costs too much to get a military Mauser to the level that most people want to have them today & that's generally a lot more than what you can buy a very nice semi-custom rifle for today.

I've done a few rifles on Mausers over the years & still have at least a couple of pristine 1909 actions & 3-4 Brno VZ-24's as well that I don't really expect that I will do anything with.

I was lucky in that I've had the resources available to be to do the work myself & the guns were just intended to be working guns for me, but even so, the investment in parts and components was more than a good M-70 at the time.

Here are the only 2 that I have left.

The top one is a 98 Spandau action (re-heat treated) with a Douglas barrel, Timney trigger, Dakota safety, & a Pacific Research stock with bolt & follower jewelled. Trigger guard is completely thinned & re-shaped.

Lower rifle is much the same but with a 1909 action Mark X bottom metal w/re-shaped & thinned trigger guard, 280 Rem.

Leupold 2x7's & Conetrol mounts.

(Sorry for the poor pics, but it's all I have availble w/o taking more)

MM

I'll be the contrarian here. The reason I never cared for the M1909 action is because of the bottom metal. I never felt the need for a hinged floor plate, and the one time I did build a Mauser with one I fabricated my own from a standard floor plate, with a lever release. The floor plate release in trigger guard a là M1909 makes for a clumsy looking trigger guard, to me- and unable to be contoured into a pleasing shape. Without the bottom metal, a M1909 becomes just another M98.

Those who say the M1909 action reigns supreme in the world of M98's hasn't spent much time handling pre-war Oberndorf and BRNO actions, military or commercial, not to mention a crisp Swede M96. Those cats at Oberndorf and BRNO knew how to heat treat and polish an action, which combined with close(er) tolerances made their reputation. Metallurgy made great strides in the period between pre-WWI and the 1930's too. An early DWM/Spandau/Obendorf Mauser was made from relatively soft low carbon steel and then carburized (which counted a lot towards its smoothness) which is fine and dandy for its intended purpose, but a little suspect for a "modern" high intensity round- especially if heavy use is in the forecast and/or lug setback is a concern, certainly not a major concern but there nonetheless. One can't re-heat treat such an action to improve it in that regard- there just isn't enough carbon in the alloy, not to mention a lack of "modern" elements such as nickel, vanadium, manganese, etc. The best one can hope to do is re-carburize the steel (case harden), which leaves you squarely at step 1.

Would I use a M1909 for a future build? Well, yes but I would leave off the bottom metal and be one of those guys putting them up on fleabay to generate funds for the completion of the rifle.

I feel a M98 makes for a sweet svelte sporter (if done right), more so in my opinion than a M70 or Springfield. But any more I would rather have the Springfield and M70.

Not IMO.

IMHO, it's always a good idea to check headspace somewhat regularly on rifles built from military actions from the WW I & WW II era's. And such guns should not be subjected to thousands of rounds of current level pressure ammo either.

It's a concession but, & just my POV; sight the rifle in, shoot it enough to be confident of what it can do & hunt with it.

MM