Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 45-70, cast or jacketed?

When using the 45-70 In North America, which bullet kills big bears, big moose and bison the fastest, a heavy hard cast with a wide meplat, or a heavy jacketed 350 to 400 grain soft nosed bullet? Lets forget brain and neck bone shots and give both types of bullets equal shot placement. I believe, from what I have read over the last 50 years, a heavy jacketed soft nose bullet out of a 45-70 will produce a quicker kill then a hard cast bullet when used on our largest thin skinned North American game. Even if it does not give as much penetration as a hard cast, but gives sufficient penetration.


The hard cast will out penetrate a jacketed bullet, but will it do as much tissue damage and create as devastating permanent wound channel as a jacketed bullet? I am a believer in using a load combo that will produce an exit hole, but I also believe penetration is not the only decider in bullet performance. We have bullet construction, impact velocity, permanent wound channel and placement deciding how well a bullet kills.


I have been packing a 45-70 Marlin for close to 30 years when hiking, fishing, camping, ATV riding, etc. in Alaska. For most of that time the rifle has been stuffed with a 400 grain jacketed Kodiak bullet from Alaska bullet works. A few months ago I ordered some of their 350 grain heavy jacketed bullets and had the rifle Mag-na-ported. Those of you who shoot one of these rifles with heavy loads know why I want to reduce some recoil. After 30 years of being pounded I thought I would wimp out a bit.


In all those years I have not shot any thing with the 45-70 and doubt I will ever have much opportunity to do so as my old carcass only has so many moose hunts left and fortunately since the mid 90's, I have not had any negative bear encounters.

So if any one has any experience with the 45-70 and big critters please share your thoughts and loads. Heck, even if you are like me and have no experience, share your thoughts, that is a benefit of the internet!

Thinking you have answered your own question, but puzzle about reference to the hard cast theory.


Lyman Devastator HP 202 Gr. 45 caliber fired into 3 feet of water at 800 fps - 11 BHN



Most of 300 grains of pure inbound on the point of the shoulder and removed from under the hide of a large hog's butt that didn't even squeal. Broke shoulder, a fair number of ribs, vertebrae and the hip on the off side. ~1550 fps at 15 yards. .44 Mag, paper patched.



There be a lot of games a fellow can play with lead alloys but if you don't cast there's little point if pursuing the discussion. I tend to disagree about the value of penetration if for no other reason than the deeper it penetrates the more damage it will do. Critters die due to disruption of the neural net or circulatory system. On the latter point, two holes is better than one.

Have used a number of soft nose bullet loads in my .45-70 Marlin on game generally with good results. Got a load developed with 400gr Barnes Busters to see how these perform. Should be an excellent penetrator.

I prefer a heavy flat point cast. Cast as soft as the speed will allow.

Top mushroom 450grn Paper patched bullet, bottom 500grn.....

about 1400 and 1300fps, IIRC....

I have pushed the 500grnrs at 1600fps..... out of a Marlin Cowboy gun.... recoil was...um...er.... stout!

These were shot into damp sand.... full weight retention...

I’ve had excellent results with large meplat hard ast on moose, Buffalo,etc out of revolvers. I haven’t seen a proper large flat point take a back seat when it comes to taking animals cleanly and quickly.

Used the .45/70 a lot since the re-release in the early 70's and found the 400 grainers better than the 300's and the most emphatic DRT's from cast.
With the 400's, the Remington was better than the paper thin jacket on the Speer and the Hornady 300gn was better than the Sierra of the day.

The thinner jackets tear up too much flesh if you are a deer hunter but were fine with the culling we did mostly on feral goats and pigs. Even loaded the 500gn Hornady to 1550fps once and it too killed rather emphatically, so these days and several hundred kills later, I would be happy with cast weights around 400 grains for everything and with velocities from 1200fps up to whatever you can handle, but will say, faster velocity still impresses most, on game.
John

Being my fave cartridge I trust it greatly. Out of my Guide Gun nothing has stood up to my 405 fp casts. I haven't done the huge game stuff but millions of bison died to mostly pure lead. 1600 fps is all you need. My personal casts are around 12-14 bhn

I've not been impressed with the jacketed bullets designed for the 45-70 out of a Cowboy Marlin with 26"bbl. Went with the RCBS 300 and 400, and the Lee PB that casts about 360 in my alloy of choice, which is pretty soft. I can push them over 2k, and they hit with surprising authority.

My good friend gets tremendous penetration ( on elk & mule deer) and emphatic results with the Hornady 350 round nose jacketed bullet. Since around 1973 or so! It works so well he has never tried to use another type.

I can only talk about moose, but it shouldn't matter. WRT lead, a large meplat does the damage. Heavy and slow is good. A large, flat meplat makes it better.

My Marlin 45-70 is a slightly modified "Cowboy" model with pistol grip, a 21" octagon barrel and medium sized loop, as I don't care for the big and gawdy lever loops and feel they are slower to operate. The rifle holds 6 in the magazine and I put a Skinner Alaskan aperture sight on it and an XS flat post with the white strip up the middle. As luck would have it and old Redfield front sight ramp fit perfectly on the flat of the octagon barrel. I slicked up the action a bit and did a little bedding to the stock.

A good red recoil pad, a trigger job by a gun smith and a case full of H322 in WW brass with 400 grain Kodiak bonded bullets. Once they are gone I may go to their heavy jacketed 350 grain version or a 400 grain LBT hard cast.

My wife made me a moose hide sheath for it complete with fringe. It is a neat set up and one of my prized possession's. It carries very well with the flat sides and no scope.

I have read several times about hunters using a soft nose and then solids on Cape buffalo. At the end of the day I believe for North America a big hard cast or tough jacketed soft nose from 350 to 400 grains will give good results under about any scenario for our biggest animals. Still, a heavy hard cast seems fitting for the old cartridge.

I liked the Remingtons too,on elk. The last time I tripped the hammer on a 500gr cast in an 188 reproduction,I figured I knew all I wanted to know about them.

At 13 pounds fully loaded, I gave that 1886 up for something in the 7pound class with a 180 gr partition.

I have never killed anything with any 45-70...but I've loaded for and owned/loaded for/shot several out to 300yds. No matter what the bullet weighed ( 300-400) I always zeroed them +2" over the top center edge of the bead or post. I simply used a 6 o'clock hold on a square black (from 4-6"@100 ) I then shot them out to 300yds, on that 350gr going around 1800 or so...I found that the "middle of the bead" was right at or close to 150yds and the "bottom of the bead" was at 200yds. The 300 required me to hold up a measured amount from the top edge of the bead/post for the corresponding bullet weight drop. I actually shot more at 300 with the old Winchester load with the 300 Partition from Browning 1886 LW carbine. ( I was going to try for antelope) The Speer 300 Unicore shot as well and would be my choice today. Of course, now the Ballistic Reticles/dialamatic knobs, etc, can make it even easier to use a 45-70 at "longer range", or lets say 95% of any hunting range. My own 'average" on cow elk is 190yds...30-06, 375 H&H, 338WM...I could have killed them all with any of the 45-70s I played with, ha. And, since those "big humped back bears" give me a "thrill" at the zoo...well, if I hunted where he "lived" and might bite me on the leg, I would just feel more at ease with a 45-70 than any handgun...just saying. As for rain/snow...our modern synthetic stocks and good gun oils/grease are pretty good...:)

That was a long winded way of saying that "proper weight/make" of either soft nose or hard cast seem deadly in the 45-70. Speed seemed more relevant to distance than killing power...heck 1100fps would get him off of you! Going quickly "back into battery/recovery from recoil would seem desirable also! For example, I shot "one" (1) round of Grizzly factory Bear loads( something like that) 460gr HC out of a 26" marlin 1895 cowboy...for a split seconf there, I just "knew" the recoil had torn all the gristle loose around my neck fusion plate/screws! OMG...not for me....:) I did the same ( one round) of HSM 300gr (or a tad heavier, don't remember) one handed ( in case I had to shoot a bear off me when horseback, see?) from my 5.5" Freedom Arms 45 Colt. I "just knew in that split second" that front sight was going to hit my forehead! Luckily it missed. I just went back to my 270gr HCGC Keith style at 1000fps load. To this day...no bears have come near.

My GBL with leather fringed scabbard.

I like cast.

I haven't gotten much blood on my knife as a result of shooting my Marlin 1895, but I shoot a consistently accurate jacketed load: Hornady 350gr FP over 45gr of RL7. It goes out at 1750fps and I'm confident it will do the job when called upon. I shoot plenty of 405gr cast over 14gr Unique, too, but only for fun/practice.

Cast bullet, without a doubt. Three trips to Africa, two with a 45-110 and one with a 45-70 using both round nosed and flat nosed cast bullets gave quick kills and complete pass through penetration. 1250 to 1300 fps is more than enough velocity. Check out Black powder zebra kill on youtube. That was a 480 grain flatnosed bullet out of a 45-70 Shiloh Sharps at 1244 fps.

Using the 45 caliber cast lead bullet In North America, I have taken a dozen bison and three elk and I don't know how many deer and hogs with the lead cast bullet, and have never recovered a bullet or lost an animal. My friends and I have settled on the 480 to 500 grain flatnosed cast bullet at 1250 fps as the most reliable killer, as it gives complete pass through on bison, moose, elk, and big hogs.


If you cast your own bullets, the Lyman 457121 cast of 50/50 wheel weights and lead, or just straight wheel weights is THE bullet for your Marlin Cowboy. I run it at 1300 fps out of mine, and recoil is not a problem. This load kicks about like my 30-06 with a factory 180 grain load and feeds through the Marlin like it is greased. Your Marlin Cowboy loaded with the 457121 is the Real Deal and with a ladder barrel sight will reach a lot farther than you would believe. It is also a pure HAMMER at this velocity with this bullet. I frankly feel sorry for anybody that uses anything else, this works so well on so many levels.

"I have pushed the 500grnrs at 1600fps..... out of a Marlin Cowboy gun.... recoil was...um...er.... stout!"

You wouldn't be kidding me now would you? My first 45-70 was one of the first ones marlin based on the 336 with that nasty curved butt plate. I got it as almost new as the previous owner fired one round of factory 400 gr. bullets and the kick was too much. I tried it and was careful on how I placed it against my shoulder and it wasn't all that bad.
He sold it to me for $50. I got a 400 gr. Lee mold and shot it to various levels of power. I never did agree with Ken Waters that it could take Ruger #1 level loads. Sorry Ken. I got that Lyman mold #457122 for that 330 gr. hollow point bullet the "Gould" bullet and it was a bear to get good casts, the problem being irregularity in the hollow points. The good one shot quite well with the Marlin doing 2" on average and a Ruger #1 doing right at 1.5" average. I have A.C. Gould's book, "Modern American Rifles" circa 1892 where he describes having IIRC, Ideal designing three molds for .45 caliber rifles and Gould decided the 330 HP mold the best of the litter. I'm inclined to agree although I think I would pick the 400 gr. RCBS bullet for larger game.
The Marlin is long gone and the Ruger #1 now sits at the back of the safe as I have gone on to other thing rifle wise.
I have a Lee 500 gr. mold that has a very long nose and shot quite well in the Ruger which has a long throat. Recoil to put it lightly was noticable. I might crank out a few if I ever get a chance to hunt bison.
Paul B.

IMHO the 45-70 velocity is such that either cast or jacketed are a good choice. If you tend towards the lighter faster with some expansion camp, there are several 350's that will perform excellently in the 45-70. If you like cast bullets with big meplats, 400-440 gr seems like the right weight for the cast bullet sweet spot of 1800-2000 fps.

I'd suggest the Swift 350 A-Frame bullet at max velocity. It will flatten trajectory a bit and provide excellent penetration with moderate expansion. It is actually the most accurate bullet in my Marlin1895SBL with RE7.

This is the only bullet that provided everything: accuracy, expansion and deep penetration.