Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Just starting out

I am looking for a little guidance here. I have a TC Venture 7mm rem mag with a 1 in 10 twist rate 24 inch barrel.

I am looking for bullet and load recommendations for an upcoming elk hunt. I am not looking at dropping anything over 400 yards, more than likely it will be a 200 yard shot with the terrain that I will be hunting.

I am thinking of starting off with a Nosler bullet.

Thank you

Partition or Accubond would be a good choice.

Check the sticky of "Campfire Pet Loads" here in the Big Game Rifles page.
Link here

Hammer bullets

when selecting the grain weight do you take the twist rate into consideration? I read that a 1 in 10 is meant for lighter bullets 115 to 140 grains. My concern is that I am going for an elk and I am not sure 140 grain bullet would have enough knockdown power.

You can look up the particulars of each bullet you're thinking of using, caliber is .284" of course, length, weight, B.C. and load the info into the Twist Rate calculator on the Berger Bullet web site.

A 1-10 twist will comfortably stabilize a 150 Partition for example.

Bullet length is more important than weight in my experience but the calculator will help you sort that out!

PS, Welcome to the 'fire!

Check out SPS. I'd be looking for some 160gr. partitions and RL25 powder...

Just to make it easier on you and take some of the guess work out of it:
160 gr. Nosler partitons $18.95

First, a point of grammar.

It's weight, not "grain weight". You don't say "pound weight", it's just weight.

Your 1 in 10 twist will handle any common bullet weight just fine.

If you want to go heavier, Shooter Proshop has the 160gr Partion blems on sale for Father's day. They are a forgiving bullet and a good place for a new reloader to start for elk loads.

thank you for the help. I have been using the calculator to try and narrow down which bullet or bullets I want to try. I have noticed that with my barrel twist rates bullets in the 140 and 150 are stable but have lower ballistic coefficients. I am not looking at taking an 800 yard shot at an elk but I am trying to take a lot of the guess work out of it. Would a 140 or 150 partition be ok for an elk or is it better to stick with the 160?

I also by luck stumbled on someones recipe for a load that shot berger 160 hunter classic rounds out of my rifle with great success. I just haven't looked in Bergers book to verify its a safe load.

It's hard to go wrong with a Partition for elk. The Barnes TTSX is another good choice, and there are others.

I have no doubt that your rifle will stabilize a 160 grain bullet. I shoot them in my 7x57, which has a lot less case capacity, and they work fine.

You'll get disagreement on this, and sometimes I get heat for it:

A standard cup and core bullet will open as long as it impacts at at least 2100 FPS. Some cup and cores will open at 1800 FPS. Standard cup and core bullets tend to start to break apart at about 2800 FPS. Anywhere between their minimum opening speed and 2800 FPS, they will produce a practically constant 14 inch wound channel.

Switching to a Partition or a TTSX gets you reliable opening at 1800 FPS, and the bullet will hang together at whatever speed you can push it to. In their operating range, these bullets will produce a practically constant 16 inch wound channel.

As long as the impact speed is in the designed operating window, you'll get essentially the same length wound channel, determined by bullet construction, give or take hitting one of the very large bones.

Additional speed gets you more range, not more killing power.

Most of the guys I know favor heavier bullets, which seem to survive contact with one of the large bones better than a lighter bullet. But my hobby is ballistics and target shooting, and you'll get better advice on that from someone who is a better hunter than I am.

Anywhere you're going to hunt elk in AZ, or the west, you'll be at an altitude that will stabilize any 160 gr bullet fully out of a 1:10. Nosler has load data listed online. Sure, 140 or 150 gr Partitions will kill elk, but 160's offer a bit more of a good thing if you get a steeply quartering shot. In a 7mm Rem, there's no point in going to a lighter bullet.

I am going to try hopefully in the next few weeks are going to be the partition 160 g as it has a lot of good reviews and seems to stabilize in my home altitude and the altitude I will be hunting in. I had hoped to use the Accubonds but they do not stabilize as well as the partitions.

I also am going to try the Berger Classic Hunter 168.

Also, assuming a bullet or load is not accurate (1MOA or better) how do you determine what to change? Meaning if I know the bullet will stabilize in my barrel how would i determine the powder, primer, seating or any other issues that could be contributing to inaccuracy?

For first timer I wouldn't be screwing around with a Berger bullet. [bleep] will have you pulling your hair out before it's all said and done. Get some partitions or hornady 162. The hornady bullet by far one of the more easier bullets to load for.

This.

Bergers are not for beginners.

It's much easier to get a traditionally shaped bullet to shoot well then the fancy VLD profiles.

You need to figure out the simple before you try to get too complex.

I wouldn't put so much stock in calculations. Calculations are fine as general guidelines, but the proof is in the pudding as they say. You have to shoot to find out and TO KNOW. I'd stick with Partitions and not worry about BCs and all that other jive for hunting purposes. If and when you start playing with 600, 800, and 1000 yard shots at targets, then you might want to think about BCs and stability factors. For general hunting purposes keep it simple.

Very good advice given in this thread; as usual.

Denton mentioned the Barnes TTSX. Are they easy for a beginner to load for as well?

Fellows, the Berger he mentioned is the Classic Hunter which I believe is an easier design to tune in. Am I off base?

There's no such thing from any practical rifle.

You are correct that the hybrid or tangent ogive of the Classic Hunters is supposedly easier to tune than the VLD. They are designed for loading to whatever magazine length and picking a powder charge. That said, given the OP's 200 yd shot likelihood, there's no reason to go with Bergers in a 7 Mag. I'd not recommend them to average hunters because average hunters don't generally understand terminal ballistics very well, and Bergers have some limitations in that arena. Partitions and other tough bullets don't. That's why I'd recommend Partitions, purchased cheaply from SPS, to a guy just starting out, taking short shots with a magnum, on big animals.

baker 6483, have you a shooting range in your vicinity? If so most have a board where people post item's for sale. Might post a looking for reloading mentor posting. The shooting community is very helpful for the most part. Might help streamline the learning process.

I have seen on calguns where groups meet at someones home and do talk reloading and pratice or share methods. Just an idea.

I was addressing the handloading aspect only. I'd be more comfy with a 160 Partition myself.

Generally the Barnes TTSX “mono” Bullets require a little different technique than do cup and core bullets. Only in that, they like to be farther away from the lands. Not a problem.....just different. Often, they are very accurate. And, almost always perform very well on game.
At our home.....nothing else is allowed for hunting! 😉 memtb

I will take the advice of those that have been doing this longer than me and just try the partitions to start off with.

Some mention "tuning". How do you know what part of the load recipe to change? What should I be looking for?

I more than likely will not be taking a hunting shot longer than 200 yards but I shoot at 300 for the extra practice. I would like to shoot out to 400-600 yards but I am not trying to get to that point before October.

Another dumb question I'm sure but does the brand of brass make a difference? I have a mix of Hornady, Winchester and Federal. Could that be a variable in finding what the gun likes?

It can be. I'll assume you aren't mixing the makes in a given batch of loads. Given that they are separated, different makes have different capacities. So a load that works nicely in one may not be at it's best in another. (Or even be safe in another if you're working at a max charge level.)

Tuning for me has mostly to do with the powder charge. Most of my rifles have factory throats the have the bullets well off the rifling when the cartridges fit the magazine. I might try seating shorter when a good charge level distinguishes itself.

Yes, powder charge and the distance the bullet is off the lands.

I generally start at .030" off the lands and seldom have much reason to change that.

Modern temperature compensated powders are much better. With some older powders, a change of 30 F in barrel and ammunition temperature is equivalent to a change of 1 grain of powder. So trying to fine tune those down to .1 grain is an exercise in futility... unless, of course, your are controlling temperature down to plus or minus 3 degrees F.

I don't shoot 7mm Mag, but I suspect that a 160 grain Partition over Retumbo would be a winning combination. Somebody that has actually tried that combination can give you a better report than I can.

There are a multitude of ways to do it right. Enjoy the trip.

How many man hours are consumed (wasted?) by handloaders meticulously weighing charges for typical deer rifles and shots inside 300 yards?

Mathman, Wasted......is pretty subjective! For those that enjoy.....the payoff is much like any other hobby. You throw money at it! But if 300 yards is the reasonable/ likely shot....then let’s consider. A few dollars, and a little time can convert a 2” at a 100 yard rifle to a 1” rifle. The 2” @ 100 rifle, then becomes a 6” (likely) group at 300 yards, under the best of conditions. Now throw in, that
most shooters from field positions are likely to triple their 100 yard group at 300 yards. There are, obvious, exceptions to my assumptions. If the “planets are aligned against the hunter) a deer at 300 could very easily be missed or wounded. The odds of a miss/wounding are substantially lowered with the 1” rifle, all else being equal! My math may not be perfect.... but I bet that it’s realistically close! memtb

Two things to consider: 1. Errors in shooting/hitting do not add linearly. It's more of a square root of the sum of squares result. Because of this, halving a small error can well produce less overall improvement than a 20% reduction in a larger error in the combination. 2. It's quite feasible to shoot below MOA out to 300 yards with thrown charges of even long stick powders like 3031 and 4064. I do it all the time with sporter weight rifles. Other ducks, like the straightness of assembled cartridges, need to be in a row before (assuming a well developed load) small variations of charge weights amount to much.

Sometimes. But mostly not in practical hunting situations.

I don't consider myself an outstanding marksman, but I can put most of my shots into about 7" at 100 yards shooting offhand. Just for grins, assume that's what I do with a superb benchrest rifle that shoots groups almost too small to measure. What is the effect of switching to a 3 MOA rifle, which most of would consider pretty marginal? The math says that groups, adding by the square root of the sum of the squares, will expand to 7.6".

If you can shoot 4" groups off your backpack with the adrenaline pumping, using a 1" rifle, then switching to a 2" rifle will open your groups up to 4.35".

The largest source of variation swamps out the others. That is why, as mathman says, working on the lesser sources of variation is an exercise in futility.

I'm in agreement

Good post John. Even about the 162 interlock. That's a good all around deer and elk bullet.

I don't know about others, but I load them like I'm going to be be shooting 600 yards. For a fast 7mm, that's exceptionally important.

Amen brother..

a.k.a the poor man's Partition.

I equipped my 16 YO granddaughter with my 7x57 and 139 grain Interlocks loaded to 2800 FPS, and felt that she had a combination that would perform well and not bruise her.

I just did a little figuring along this line. I picked the 7mm Rem mag since it's a common fast 7mm. I looked at published data for 150 and 160 grain bullets for a couple of typical powders. I found the velocity increment per grain of charge to be close to 50 fps/grain. Let's assume a 0.6 grain charge spread, +/- 0.3 grains on either side of whatever is optimum. This would account for 30 fps high to low. Running a 0.5 G1 BC at 3000 fps and 3030 fps through the basic Hornady calculator set to a 300 yard zero shows 1.1" of difference in drop at 600 yards.

Drop is easily adjusted for.... “wind doping” is a very difficult skill to master. Higher BC’s and velocities will help at extended ranges! I welcome any help I can get at any and all ranges! memtb

The 30 fps accounts for less than an inch in wind drift difference for a 20 mph full value crosswind.

No doubt....30 fps is insignificant even with “vastly” different BC’s. memtb

No doubt....30 fps is insignificant even with “fairly significant “ different BC’s. memtb

That's what I'm getting at. For most shooting outside of long range competition with small targets, a few tenths +/- of a grain of powder won't amount to a lot in a well developed load.

Keep you initial tuning simple.

Get a good reloading manual and read it.

Start with the recommended minimum power charge, and work up in 1/2 grain increments until you either experience pressure signs, or reach the max load. Shoot groups. If you get some good results, load up some more of the load that produced the smallest groups and see if you can reproduce that result.

For powder, I'd start with H4831, It's and old classic that's worked well in 7mm Rem Mags for me in the past.

when you say "H4831" do you mean IMR4831? That is a powder load from the reloading book I have. I don't really feel comfortable using a powder that is not listed in a book.

The powders listed under the 160 grain bullet options are IMR4064, IMR4320, IMR4350, AA3100, RL19(my neighbor has this powder), RL22, IMR4831, Vihnt N165 (most accurate powder with their test rifle), IMR7828, and H870.




Keep you initial tuning simple.

Get a good reloading manual and read it.

Start with the recommended minimum power charge, and work up in 1/2 grain increments until you either experience pressure signs, or reach the max load. Shoot groups. If you get some good results, load up some more of the load that produced the smallest groups and see if you can reproduce that result.

For powder, I'd start with H4831, It's and old classic that's worked well in 7mm Rem Mags for me in the past. [/quote]

There is plenty of loading data available free on the Hodgdon website. You'll likely find what you need there for H4831.

I'd suggest giving IMR7828 a good try.

Reloader-22 has made it so easy to load for the four 7mags I have.
69.5grs for 140's
67.5grs for 150's
66.0grs for 160's
63.0grs for 175's
The 160gr Accubond would be a very good choice for elk.

[/quote]

Nope, I mean H4831. It might not be in the book you have, but it's in plenty of others, and as RR mentioned, Hodgdons provides data for it on their sight.

Of the one's you list in your book the two I'd try first are IMR-7828 and RL22

If I were to try one of the new breed of IMR powders, 7977 looks like it could be interesting.

The hodgdon website does make it easy as they have 150 and 160 partitions.. A very nice gentleman gave me some partition 150 and sierra 160s to try. I am sure this is a redundant question but can I use the data on the Hodgdon website for any 160 grain bullet or is it just the bullet type thats listed?

Partitions are a little harder to engrave than cup and core bullets, and will generate slightly higher pressures and speeds.

I've used a 7mm Rem Mag her in AZ. Personally, I have not harvested an Elk with it. My son did drop a cow in unit 6a at 175 yards using Federal Blue Box 175 gr PSP. DRT.

I'm using 140 gr Nosler Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip's out of a Winchester Model 70 with a pencil thin 26" barrel. It just works. IIRC, I think velocity is mid-range for the bullet ? I'm thinking that it's 70 grains of RL-22 @ approx 3,500 fps (loosing my memory). Using Winchester Magnum primers, and Remington brass. With this load, I have dropped a couple of whitetails out to 500+ yards. They did not even wiggle. But, I have not hunted the rifle for nearly 10 years. So all of these figures are in the recesses of deep, dark black holes in my memory.

You'll need to work up your own loads as each rifle is different. But this is what works for me.

What unit and hunt did you draw ?

Denton,

I am sorry but I don't understand what you mean. But from what I am guessing every bullet or projectile will have its own load profile as it flies differently.

Also in looking at the rifles used to generate load data they have longer barrels and faster twist rates. That being said would it be more efficient to start off in the middle of the load recommendation?

Baker, there is some resistance as a bullet engages the lands. Lead bullets are soft and engrave with little resistance. Harder bullets resist the engraving to a greater degree. Jacketed bullets vary quite a bit in this regard due to jacket material and thickness and in the case of bullets like the A-Frame and Partition, construction. Monolithics like Barnes resist even more. That resistance to engraving or conforming to the lands tends to increase pressure at the very beginning of the burn and causes higher peak pressures.

Baker,

As a beginner, it's best to start off with minimum loads. As you become familiar with your individual guns, cartridges, and component choices you will be better able to judge when it's reasonable to start with median (or in some cases even max) loads, and when it's not.

This is even more true when substituting components. Even changing something as simple as brass can change you max powder charge by a full gain.

makes sense to start with the starting loads... would you guys recommend crimping 150 and 160 grain partitions? I have been looking and I have not been able to find a definitive answer on if crimping partitions is necessary or not.

I don't crimp anything but handgun rounds.

Most here don't crimp bottle neck rounds. Crimping is typically reserved for straight cases.

I'd only crimp if not crimping could cause problems, say with a very heavy-kicking rifle while hunting dangerous game, or when loading for a tube-fed lever action. That said, I don't crimp bottleneck rounds unless they contain cast bullets, which don't have the same neck tension as jacketed or mono-metal bullets due to the lube.

Partitions don't typically have a crimp groove (though some sold through SPS will have one per the specs of who Nosler is making the bullet for), and crimping without a crimp groove is not going to add anything to your accuracy potential. I've tried Lee Factory Crimp Dies with rifles and jacketed bullets, and lost accuracy more often than not. Often, your best seating depth for accuracy will be nowhere near any crimp groove on the bullets that have them.