Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .22 RF alternatives

Jeez, proposal for production

Well, maybe not so crazy, good ideas sometimes do get noticed.

Hoping it works out so I can spend more of my retirement on new toys!

Geno

The proposal was their idea, not my own. So who's the loon?

Aren't they the folks that "came up with" that silly 6.5 Creedmor deal?

Look at the scheidtstorm that has initiated!

Perhaps you're on to something DD. The next big thing in short range shooting!

Geno

After reading all 47 pages..... this thing is about to really take off!!!! Have to love an ammo company that says no to a huge state contract with the gun hating legislature. Stand together NY Patriots.
Go Hornady.
So who makes the first factory rifle??????
Thanks Dan

myself I just always keep a few extra cases of 22 LR ammo around,yes its better now that Trump is president, and as a gun dealer even background check`s go thru much easier now. so if you enjoy shooting your 22LR guns stock up now on ammo, just in case in the future America elects another Liberal gun hater !

Bob, I think T/C has already made the rifle.

Others are out there, not too difficult to modify from what I hear. Sitting here with fingers crossed and in the process of loading up 50 rounds for another bout of testing.

Pete, I'm not unmindful of the benefit accrued from planning, but I don't know the average shooter thinks that far ahead. What the average Joe knows is loons like myself who can teach them the ropes on reloading and spread the gospel. I got a few bricks that survived the last administration, but frankly I would rather shoot my own. I firmly believe I can exceed performance for US manufactured ammo for the most part and know for a fact I can do it cheaper.

Caught a break from the rain today and ran 52 rounds thru the paper. Not braggin' but it looks like a few things are coming together and I got a few chuckles out of the deal as well. Firstly, just before I put the can on the barrel I took a moment and shook the debris out onto a paper towel. I was somewhat surprised at the amount of unburned powder that emerged. The unburned part was verified on the driveway with a Bic lighter. Yep, weren't burned. It was quite a pile accumulated over the course of firing about 100-140 rounds previously.

So I started with a clean can (please spare the editorial levity), fired the loads and repeated the dump (don't say it). 25.7 grains of unburned powder of the large flake variety. Today's round utilized the following powders and total load of each.
800X - 21.0 grains
Blue Dot - 22.0 grains
231 - 12.0 grains



I had to chuckle about this new horizon of inefficiency that I have found.

With that out of the way, it seems that some of my tweedling has paid off.

For example, I probably won't pursue further load tests with Blue Dot. It isn't the low velocity that bothers me, but the lack of precision. This load is in the 90-95% load density range. You may note the reference to "NASA" and that refers to the type lube. I loaded 10 rounds each with 5 different charges of powder and further subdivided that with different lubes. SPG mixed with graphite and NASA lube without modification. I also tested 2 rounds with a mix of vaseline and graphite, a brew I will try again.



Anyway, I dabbled with some 800X and found myself shooting a group that brought on a smile since it was better than the fouling group with factory Norma Tac.



Since I was on a roll bumped the charge up 10% and let it rip....er....phffft. Yeah, these things are so quiet it's plain weird.



My testing with the different lubes in inconclusive at this point, but will continue due to a few hints. NASA has potential and the Vaseline/Graphite mix....only 2 shots, into a hair over .3" with modest velocity variation. 2 shots doesn't mean much, but it doesn't take much to make me look twice these days.

All of this went down on the 20 yard line and subject to a few more tests I'll start fiddlin' on the 50 just for giggles. And black powder. 3f and 4f. Dunno I'll get anywhere with it, but a fella doesn't know until he tries. Loads will be simple....fill the case and shoot; see what happens and let you know. One thing that is the schizzle about BP and mufflers, you can clean them in the dish washer. Simplicity is a good thing.

Oh yeah, next round? I have a new crimping tool and we'll see if that helps.

Dan

Dan,

did I miss something or did I misread about the 231? Did you test that also?

Geno

Yes indeed. I've been fiddling with WW231 almost from the start. Didn't post the pics from this round but two groups of 5 performed thus:

1.0 grains, CCI SPP with SPG lube averaged 994 fps with ES of 63 and Sd of 24. Group was .44"
Same load with NASA lube averaged 1029 fps with ES of 56 and Sd of 20. Group was .41"
2 rounds with same load and Vaseline/Graphite lube Avg 1021 fps and grouped .26"

During the previous test I rand a load of 1.1 WW231 that averaged 1116 fps w/ES of 70 and Sd 30. Group was .73" and two rounds were decidedly supersonic. 1140 and 1158 fps. The group would have been in the high 3's except for a flyer.

I've got some more work to do with 231 but have shelved Bullseye and Blue Dot forever....and a day. If you go back a little ways you'll see at least a couple of 231 targets w/data.

Does the unburnt powder in the can cause any concern at this point, do you think it's affecting accuracy to a point that cleaning or just pushing a dry patch threw the barrel could change speed or accuracy enough to notice ?

It isn't an issue. There have been a few times when shooting the Sneezer that it ignites but it just sizzles for a few seconds. Hasn't happened with the .22. I have shot RF ammo with and without the can and it makes no difference in regards to precision. It does cause a POI shift but it is very minor with the .22.

Only time I ever wiped between shots was with BP loads in the Sneezer.

Jimy, one of the things I've been doing with the tests is to fire 5 RF rounds before and after the CF rounds are fired. It fouls the bore and verifies zero on the front end and in theory checks for leading on the back side. Group size of each on this last go round was within .1" of the other, this after 52 CF rounds. Groups at 20 yards are typically around .3" for Norma Tac and .2" for Wolf MT.

My 22 RF alternative in .223. When I see 50 rds. of 22 for $2 I might buy some more, but until then I'm done with 22 RF.

Thanks, sir, for the reply re: 231.

I had seen the other earlier test targets, just wondered if there had been a substantial improvement/decline in what you're looking for on this test with the lubes.

The velocity figures are ballpark where you want them with the 1.0 load? Slightly speedier than the 800X with similar ES & SD. Accuracy, esp if the Vaseline/graphite test was any indication seems reasonable.

Minutiae,minutiae...............what's a man to do?

Carry on.........please.

Geno

It occurs that it might be of interest to share a couple of pics that fairly represent the devil that drives me on the quest for consistent precision with this project. What is my rifle capable of? I mentioned in comments to Jimy in the process of testing loads that I shoot standard RF ammo before and after. It serves as a reminder of what I am chasing. So if the average is in the 2's for Wolf and 3's for Norma TAC, what is the best they have done at 20 yards?

Meet my own personal devil:

Norma Tac; 5 rounds @ 20 yards, and please note this particular groups was #2, or the last round after shooting the CF rounds that day.:



Likewise, the best of the Wolf was also the last round after a CF test. Wolf in a harsh mistress.

Those groups will keep the local squirrels a hiding their nuts !

One to two grains per round? I think I'm missing something.
Not being a smartass really.

There be 7,000 grains to a pound. Loads I've shot to date run in the .8-1.1 grain range.

Just checking for up dates

Jimy, glad you did that. I've a few tales to relate.

Best of news for resident loonies here on the 'Fire is this project does not require much in the way of tools. Yes, I've been using a shell holder crafted by Jimy and fiddling with a tapered size die contrived by a friend of mine, but the short version is this ammo can be reloaded with virtually no tooling whatsoever. Took a break from the humdrum a couple days back to load up another round of test ammo and try another invention of mine which I hope addresses or helps address the issue of consistent neck tension. Purpose of the next test is to evaluate different lubes and in the spirit of that I have 4 rounds of 4 shots each with the same powder charge but a different lube. They are 1)my standby SPG/graphite, 2)NASA lube, 3)Vaseline/graphite, 4)ALOX. I also loaded up 4 rounds with a .1 bump in the 800X charge, to 1.2 grains. I'm expecting somewhere around 900 fps with that load and note it is 100% load density w/o compression.

Having alleged that few if any tools are necessary for this and admitting that I use some, what are they and to what end?

I decap spent primers by use of the previously mentioned shell holder and a RCBS universal decapper. Simple enough....but not required. A small diameter nail, or punch on a properly prepared wood block will work as well..

Look at the top of the load block and you will see a two diameter hole, the center being thru bored. Works like a champ.



So with that done, how do I prime the cases? With a hammer and brass punch. The case is inverted and the web rests on the face of a punch in the vice. I get everything lined up, take a deep breath and with all my strength give it a gentle series of 3 taps. 9 times out of 10 the last tap will have a slight metallic "tink" and that signals the primer is seated. ~200 rounds into this and I still have all the fingers I started with. For what it's worth, the first few cases I primed when this started were done with the case upright on the anvil, punch in the case and tapping the case down on the primer. It works but does not fully seat the primer.



Well, it all works but being the nit picker I am and wanting it more-better and all, I have a few more simple tricks. None of this would have been necessary if years ago the industry had realized a need for such contrivances on the front end. Hell, they probably couldn't imagine the impact our recent clown president would have on the shooting industry is my guess.

Top of the press is the sized die mentioned earlier. Nothing really special but the .223" sizing allows for good neck tension and with the gentle kiss of a Lee Universal Neck Expanding Die one can seat the bullets with finger pressure. Problem with this approach is that from time to time the die would extract the bullet after the crimp was administered. Vexing that. Sometimes it takes serious finger pressure. Sometimes I use a small stick of soft pine or cedar and administer gentle admonishment upon the stubborn bullets, but I do NOT deform the bullets in so doing. Gentle is a key word here.

Down below the die you see a small section of PVC pipe, cut perfectly square and I know what you're thinking. "This guy had lost touch with reality!" Well, like I said, if the industry had been on the ball 80 years ago none of this would be happening. Slackers!

At the lower left you see a small round of wood and perhaps ask what it's for?




Well the wood's purpose is very straight forward. When I first tried the brass hockey puck to impart a wee roll crimp in the case after the bullet is seated I had problems with it not separating clean and square. It was causing about 1:4 bullets to cant slightly and that was defeating the purpose of the drill. That's where the PVC came in and the wood as well. I started to use a hole saw bit but thought better of it and due to dimensional incompatibility had to get creative.



The process is easy. Loaded round in the shell holder, wood then brass crimper on top, give it a very light bump against the size die and it all separates cleanly. Bullets are straight and do not spin in the case. Bullets currently in use mic at .2225" diameter on the drive band, cases are ball park .224" after fire forming. Hole in the brass is .223" on the dot and has a radiused juncture. Simple as dirt.

I will close this by saying that in the proposal forwarded to Hornady I suggested this could be done with simple 310 style tools (or less) as a vehicle for introducing the uninformed to the world of hand loading. Too, it was suggested that conventional dies and equipment would provide a path to high precision crafting. I'm thinking at present that it has been demonstrated this is a practical undertaking and for the most part very simple. The one serious demand in the whole undertaking is dimensional compatibility between bullets/brass and tooling. A creative mind is useful at this stage but if the industry does the right thing that won't be required either.

DD