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I've 78 years down the road'
Looking for something for shooting practice. Wondering if it's made.
1. .177
2. 6 pounds maximum
3. Adjustable trigger - something that I can get to 2 pounds.
4. "Pump up power" I have a small indoors area that could be utilized and acres of huntable outside.
5. Scopeable. Older eyes are having major problems with iron sights.
6. Consistent accuracy - minute of Coke can at 25 yards would be nice.
7. No more than $250

What do you suggest?

Thanks
Jim

Since you asked for suggestion, here is mine. Stay away from the Wally world offerings and look at the "Our Take" forum on Straight Shooters. Select a rifle, then click on the Our Take tab. Normally they will give a pretty good evaluation of the product with the pros and cons along with velocity expectations. I personally like the gas ram guns. For the practice you describe, I would suggest a .177 caliber. Some will come as a package with a scope included. Coke can accuracy can be far exceeded by most of the air rifles out there. More like dime-nickel sized at 25 yards. They are quite a pleaseure to shoot.

I'm only 10 years behind you and I got my first air rifle in Sept. 2015 for much the same reasons; such as scopeable and minute of coke can accuracy. Wanted to squirrel hunt also just for kicks and I was told to get a .22 cal. although I was also told .177 would work. Wound up with a .22 cal. Benjamin Trail with the Nitro Piston 2 system. Came with a 3-9x Center Point scope already on it and so far it's been a lot of fun. Will take squirrels out to about 25 yds. and is lethal on 12 oz. cans. Only problem is that now the MSRP is up to about 280 bucks and the weight is given as 8 pounds. Crosman has a lot of other, lighter. less expensive models in .177 that might be worth checking out; many of which also come with a scope.

Thanks for the responses guys.
I sent an email to Pyramyd Air asking the same questions. Wonder what they will come up with.

Jim

Just out of curiosity let us know what they say......... If I ever upgrade from what I've got now those PCP ( Pre Charged Pneumatic ) guns look real interesting. Even if they are a lot more money. I've looked at some of the Crosman PCP stuff and if I ever decided to splurge they even have a custom shop that offers a bunch of options.

The Disco (Discovery) and the other budget synthetic stocked rifle will get you in the game,but must be pumped or supplied air filled at a cost almost equal to or exceeding the cost of the gun.
Remember it looks like a bike pump, but you are charging a 2,000 psi charge.
Good thing about the Disco or Maximus(?) is their light weight, and can be packaged into a nice package from some of the on line stores.
Look for videos on both of those on youtube.
Minute of Coke can at 25 yards . . . . Both of those should give you minute of "O" on the side of the can at 25 yards.
Of course the Marauder is a leap up in price and performance and weight.

Someone came out with a big bottle air supply gun that is supposed to be very accurate and all at a budget price, but my mind is blank.

Several sites around dedicated to airguns too.

Was checking off your boxes like mad until the last one. Would still highly recommend you up your budget $50 and get a Beeman R7 177cal.You will wish you would have bought one years ago.

I know that you asked about a .177 and this is the Air gun forum, but for less than $10.00 down at the hardware store for a 100 pack of CCI CB 29 grain shorts and the .22 that you probably already own, that .22 CB at 710 fps would be quieter, deadlier and easier to shoot than a pump up air rifle. As a kid I loved my pump up Sheridan .20 air rifle and it sure helped develop a 10 year old's shoulder muscles, but while I still have it, With the huge variety of ammunition available including that sub sonic quiet stuff, a .22 is more practical for me now.

A consideration. The Sheridan Blue streak and Silver streak .20 caliber rifles meet your specs. I have had one for about fifty years. I has killed beaucoup bunnies and squirrels, the odd woodchuck and crow. I've had a scope on it off and on. Finding pellets is not6 quite so easy, but it's not a problem. Like Windfall said above, the .22 CB loads are a very viable solution. I take one with me to my "deer stand" when I am crossbow hunting and it doesn't bother Bambi that I am popping varmints. They are quieter than the firing pin out of a long barrel target rifle. They can be an issue accuracy wise in some rifles because they are short but buying the CB longs helps.

A cheap, mostly plastic, Daisy 880 from Walmart will easily meet your criteria except the adjustable two pound trigger. Put a $40 scope on it and you should be able to hold under one inch groups at 25 yards with Crosman 7.9 cardboard box domed pellets.

Maybe check out the Seneca Dragonfly?

I've never owned a Benjamin 307 but they have a loyal following.

If you consider going the CO2 route, an Umarex Fusion or QB78 are good options.

Here is the Pyramid Air reply:

Jim; The closest we have are these: https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benjamin_392_pump_air_rifle/205 $172.95 I suggest the 22 cal if you are going to hunt-more effective. https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benjamin_397/206 $172.95 (the same gun in .177 cal). https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Seneca_Dragonfly_Multi_Pump_Air_Rifle/4514/8800 $179.99 (22 cal) or https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Seneca_Dragonfly_Multi_Pump_Air_Rifle/4514/8799 (.177 cal) These are the best choices for your application. Most of the other multi-pumps are cheap kids guns. Thank You,Mark.

My response was:

Mark
1. How is scope mounted and how is trigger adjusted on Seneca_Dragonfly_Multi_Pump_Air_Rifle/4514/8799
2. According to your specs. the Benjamin_397/206 weighs 5.5 pounds and the trigger pull is 5.5 pounds.

Could you please read my above spec. request again and come closer to those requests?
Thanks
Jim

Their "Chat" guy suggests - Weihrauch HW30S

What do you know about this one?

Well, you got lucky..because their sales person recommended WHAT YOU NEED rather than what the merely wanted to SELL you..

The HW30-S is a great choice.

The HW30-S is the Weihrauch model designation for the rifle they make for Beeman called the R-7 ..It 's the same gun..
The "S" means it has the match grade REKORD trigger design. Most folks who own one consider it about the best money you can spend on an airgun in terms of quality and utility for the $$ spent.

They develope about 600 fos in .177 which is equal to most Olympic match Air rifles.The firing behavior is smooth with little "buzz"..They don't tear up scopes. Any decent rimfire scope with good mounts will.work just fine.

The HW3O/Beeman.R-7.rifles. in .177 they are a peach. Mine is.my."back" door rifle..When the pellet us properly placed they will take game out to 30 yards up.to the size of skunks. My R-7 has killed a truck load of short range vermin around my place and is wonderfully safe and quiet for target shooting.

Mine will shoot Crosman 7.9 HPs into.less thsn jalf an inch at 25 yards..

Pyramid Air is Running a 4th of July special through tomorrow..11% off and free shipping..
That would put you in a.new HW30-S for $266.99 to your door. Plus you get a free steel knockdown "rat" field target...

If I were you, I would get off the fence and buy one pronto...


https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Weihrauch_HW30S_Air_Rifle/2018/4099

If those are really the same gun, the R7 appears to have a Lifetime Warranty.

There us no "IF" about it.

The only real difference is the name. .FWIW, the standard Pyramid warrantee with the HW30-S is one year.
Guns being the sinple machines they are- if you get one that is not right, the issues generally show up pretty fast. With an airgun , about the first two tins of pellets...

The Beeman warrantee will cost an extra $33 since coupons are not allowed on the purchase of the R-7.

Weihrauch has been in business 100 years and is a family owned company. The Beeman Comosny has nvever mafe a gun..Badicallt it us just a 40 year old Marketing brand that has changed hand 4 times in 40 years.

Unlike Crosman or the Chinese, the Weihrauchs DO NOT put their name on crap. They do everything humanly possible to.make sure only good guns go out their door. Go on Youtube and watch a few of the Weirauch factory your videos. Those people are serious about quality.

It's worth noting that in my shooting career I have bought more USED Weihrauch springers (with no warrantees) than new ones
.and never had a bit of trouble with any of them..

In the end , I trust Weihrauch's QC and inherent build quality more than Pyramid Air/ Beeman's "lifetime" warrantee..Both in practice and longevity.



I would buy the HW-30 and put thar $33 extra dollars into 4 tins of good .177 pellets. At Pyramid you buy 3 and get the 4th tin free, so $33 will cover most of a nice selection of JSB,H&N and other brands of pellets.

Money well spent no matter which way you go..

I just ordered this 30S from PyramidAir after seeing these posts. I'll let y'all know the results.

I've been thinking about an HW50-S or HW95 myself. What is your experience if any with those ? Are they hold sensitive ? Twangy ? {I really hate that} How accurate at say 40 yards ?

Basically all springers are "twangy". I agree with Blackheart about hating a "twangy" air rifle. You can spend the extra $$$ 's and have a springer tuned by one of the air gun guru's. The tune does make a difference both in accuracy and sound. You should not leave a springer cocked for very long as the spring will tend to take a set and over a long period this will affect accuracy and velocity. This was one of the reasons in my original reply that I mention the gas piston air rifles. For this type of rifle you cock it and are compressing gas (air) in a sealed piston. With the gas piston type air rifles you eliminate the "twang".

They are both good guns.

The HW95 is heavier and more expensive and puts out a bit more power.

The HW50-S is a 6 lb rifle that puts out just under 12 ftlbs (twice what the JW30/R7s do)
The HW95 is the same gun as the Beeman R9.. They weight about 7.5 lbs and put out 15 ft lbs..

Both can be a bit "buzzy" out of the box but NOTHING like cheap magnum Chinese specials ..There is also a bit of luck of the draw between guns as they do vary slightly. All of them smooth out with use .

If I was getting a .177 and wanted a light gun, I would get the HW50.
If I did not mind the extra weight and /or wanted a .22 - I would get the HW95.

I think due to the cocking linkage, the HW95 is a bit easier to cock in relation to its power level. The HW50S is quite a bit of power crammed into a small package.

Well, actually not all springers "twang" due to their power level (6-7ftlbs) the R7/HW30S rifle really don't have any buzz on firing. Which is why they are so univesally loved by those who own them.

There is sort of a magic physics formula of rifle weight vs ftlbs of muzzle energy at work there. As long as the gun does not put out more than one ft lb of muzzle energy per pound of rifle weight, the gun is usually well behaved. The HW39/R7 rifles weigh six pounds and put out that anount at the muzzle. ..

Most Olymic grade Match spring rifles put out HALF their weight in muzzle energy.
Magunm springers usuly put out TWICE as much.. Its a matter of mass vs stored energy.

Gas tams have their own problems . Yes they elimnate " twang" but they actually are less reliable than spring pistons.They van leak and or explode (yes- explode) They have no twang, but a sharper snap to the firing cycle and are very hard on scopes.

Spings are cheaper and easier to replace as well. When Walther set out to design new state of the art piston guns with their LGV and LGU series ,they DID NOT use a gas ram to do it. That should tell you something.

Thanks guys. Since I want a .22 and don't mind the extra weight, I'll probably go with the HW95. I already have several pumpers, including a Mac-1 steroid Benjamin 392 but am getting sick of pumping. I also want something with decent accuracy and a good trigger, something my BSA Meteor is lacking.

JK
I thought I knew what I was talking about but you seem to have a different opinion. I have purchased three Weihrauch HW30-S over the last 6-9 years. All were gifted to grandchildren and believe me they tried to wear them out without success. They are a good starter pellet rifle with amazing accuracy. All springers push a projectile out the end of a barrel by means of releasing a compressed spring that is contained in a tube. The spring moving down the tube and suddenly stopping, results in the "twang". All springer have the "twang", some less than others. I have never shot an Olympic grade air rifle, but will bet they are "tuned" to eliminate as much "twang" vibration as possible to aid in accuracy. "Gas tam" I no nothing of. Most people refer to the gas struts in these types of rifles as gas pistons or gas rams. The two partners at Theoben Air Rifles designed and started offering gas ram for sale in air rifles back int he 80's. I have a Theoben Evolution rifle with their gas piston and it has been going strong for going on two decades. Theoben is not longer in the rifle business but their gas ram design lives on. I have owned a multitude of springers both tuned and not tuned. I don't have a thing against springers but have migrated toward the gas ram type of air rifles for my guns. Currently my main tree rat gun is a Weihrauch 22 caliber HW90. The HW90 gas ram is a Theoben design. Gas ram failure would be a seal failure. Seals can be replaced in gas rams and the ram recharged. I am ashamed to say I have not heard of the gas ram explosion you are talking about. Not saying if could not happen, just that I have not heard about it. I would think this would be a more common problem with pre-charged pneumatic (PCP) air rifle that have a much larger volume of compressed air. The volume of air contained in a gas ram is pretty small. ALL magnum air rifles, both springer and gas ram, are hard on scopes. When scoping magnum air rifles you will need to look or ask if they are magnum air gun rated. Some of the scope manufactures will tell you they are tested to 50 caliber recoil........but some of those 50 cal. rated scopes will not hold up to a magnum air rifle.

I think spring twang or " buzz" with an airgun Is a lot like recoil in a cenyerfire rifle . It is subjective in nature and what does not bother some folks is intolerable to others. But just like recoil most of of it is shear physics.The heavier the rifle vs the power level the softer the gun will shoot. Or in the case of the spring gun vibrate less upon firing.


I think the HW90 is about the only has ram.gun I would trust over time, but even those have bern known to fail . Had a good friend who has 40 years expwrince with Speing guns have the gas ram burst on a Beeman RX2 (HW90).It blew out the cocking arm and wrecked the stock..Having said that ,the gas rams have been used a lot by Crosman and Gamo the last 7 ro 8 years in guns of various quality.. You don't see gas rams in match grade spring guns either..Its really personal prefernce amd after shooting them both quote a bit I just prefer a well done spring gun and mine don't have to have tuned just good quality guns, broken in well, properly lubed and fed good pellets. If I owned a gun with a truly awfull firing cucke thst was worth tuning, I would not hestitate to send it to someone like John Thomas in PA for a tune..

I still think it is very intersting that Walther did not use gas rams on their latest LVG & LVU Piston guns and Weihrauch has only used them on one model all these years.

I asked "Educate me." Sure am getting an appreciated bucket full.

Thanks men.
Jim

HW30 or 95. My 177-30 runs about 600fps. 177-95 about 950fps.I've shot houseflies at 30 yds. with both.

Not to hijack but, my HW30S arrived and is a great shooter. I've run about 200 Crossman 7.99 HP's and they chrono 635-640. Easy to cock and very accurate. I have some Crossman heavies, 10.3?, but haven't shot them yet.

HW30's and R7's are perfect in 177cal with medium weight pellets. Stick with the premiers or maybe some RWS Diabolos (the flat point really smacks birds and small critters). If you want more power then the R9 in 22cal is the way to go.

I'm looking at R9's and HW50's now. This HW30 is so nice.

Flat points, really? Lot of difference between flat and hollow points that I'm using? I've only shot paper to date.

the r7/hw30 is easily the best springer ive shot. easy to cock, accurate, and everything doesnt work itself loose. downside is that it doesnt really have enough juice to reliably kill squirrels or other vermin at any distance. an R1, on the other hand, will whistle pellets right thru a critter.

If I were buying a Weihrauch I’d get the HW50s. And some day I probably will.

I got a pair of Daisy 131’s, rebranded Gamo Expo, that I picked up at two different pawn shops for 25 bucks a piece. They do mostly what an HW30 would do, except with a shorter length of pull and some cost cutting construction. But about 40 years old and still shoot great. Nice click adjustable sights, good triggers, super easy to cock, very accurate but not real powerful. I added a recoil pad to increase the LOP on one, as well as a 4x32 scope. The nicer one I left stock with open sights.
For reason of their low power, like the R7 and HW30, I wouldn’t choose one for for my only airgun. About a 30 yard target gun is mostly what they’re good for.
But I busted them out last weekend for my niece and her husband and their 2 and 4 year olds to shoot. We set up some cans of various sizes and had a blast with them.

A more powerful option, and one that also won’t break the bank, is Daisy’s next step up from the 880. The 901. Easily scopeable. About on par with the power of the HW50s. And around $70 before scope. Add a Simmons 22Mag 3-9x32 and you got a decent plinker with the power and accuracy to shoot targets out to 40 or more yards and hunt small game or pests effectively out to that 30 yards or a bit more. All for less than $150 bucks including pretty decent scope and a few tins of ammo. I get the Winchester Domes .177 9.8 grain pellets from Tractor Supply for about $5 per 500.

The advantages of the Daisy 901 over the 880 is a better stock and a more adult oriented pump handle along with a factory stabilized barrel. This is what you want if you want inexpensive accuracy. Expect those nickel and dime, or quarter, sized groups, depending on skill, at 25 or 30 yards from a rest.

I don’t know about that Seneca. But a Sheridan Streak or a Benjamin 392/397 were not meant to be scoped. And they’re much harder to pump than a Daisy 880 or 901.

I have a couple of other cheap powerful springer that’ll do a number on steel cans out to 65 yards, and probably even further. Ones a plain Crosman Nitro Piston .22 ($50 pawn shop buy) which is pretty lightweight at about 6 pounds. It wears a Simmons 22 Mag 3-9x32 that I bought used.
And the other is a super accurate but longer and heavier Ruger Blackhawk Elite with adjustable trigger and a big honkin 4-12x40AO BSA Sweet 17 scope(also purchased used) in .177 caliber that’ll shoot close to 1” groups at 65 yards.
The Nitro Piston .22 might go 2 or 2.5 on a good day. And I’ve had no trouble with these upper mid power rifles tearing up inexpensive scopes.

The Ruger is actually a clone of the German air rifle Diana 34, but with the older T5 trigger.
And I’d wager that it’d shoot just as good. Though purists would argue different.

But I’d love to have an HW50S if I was a serious air gunner. Not as powerful as the two above, but more than enough to get you out to 35 or 40 yards, maybe 50, and easier to cock. And not so powerful that it’ll eat a scope.
The beauty of the springer is it’s fast to cock, fast and very easy to load, easy to mount a scope, and no additional accessories needed. Much more convenient to put a lot of lead down range than a pumper. And the 50 doesn’t have a lot of recoil that’d require a great deal of learning.

Still the pumper is easier to shoot than even the lowest powered springers. As is the PCP air rifles. Neither have any recoil. But I haven’t gotten serious enough to want to have to have a pump or tank or special high output compressor to consider a PCP. And the convenience of ease of loading along with me being too impatient and lazy to want to pump 8 or 15 times as opposed to cocking once, and accurate enough for me, leaves a mid powered springer / gas ram / nitro piston as my go to choice.

Except I have an easy to load open sight Crosman 1377 pump pistol that I shoot quite often. And just as often wish it was a 1322, as the 22 pellets are so much easier to handle. About $50 new and worth every penny. Very accurate and about as powerful as an HW30 rifle.

DollarShort

Thanks. You're talking my language. Viable options, personal experience. Appreciated.
Thanks
Jim

The Crosman Custom Shop has some pretty cool stuff too. The 1300KT is a neat little pumper based on the 1377 pistol. Pick your caliber and barrel length. Plus many custom options. Super light and handy for carrying around in the woods.

https://www.crosman.com/connect/tag/1300kt/

Or the 2400KT is the CO2 equivalent.
One downfall of CO2 though is that it loses some power in cold weather. How much I don’t know. So maybe no a viable option.

Then there’s the more traditional CO2 rifle in the Crosman 2260 Heritage which flings a 14.3 grain 22 cal pellet at 600 fps. About the same speed as an HW30 shoots a 7 grain .177 pellet. Like the 1300KT and 2400KT, easy to scope, but with a little more heft.

https://www.crosman.com/heritage-2260
I’d take any one of these. All lightweight, handy, easy to load and scope.

[img]https://goo.gl/images/cfyjLc[/img]

i have two of them: a .177 and a .22. accuracy is close to an R7, but definitely more twangy to shoot. they dont have a power level that im comfortable with for squirrel hunting, from experience. unless youre very, very close. much less finicky and/or demanding than an R1, though.

Jim,
I am late to the conversation, and before getting to the post about being sauggested a weirauch HW30s that is what I was going to suggest. It is not pumpeable, as you already know, but it is a very smooth shooter.
I got one, also to use a trigger finger trainer. I can stack cheap chinese pellets in pretty much the same hole at 10m, and my kids (5-7y) can shoot it failry accurately too. It is light, scopeable (I had a 6x SWFA MQ in it, then a 10x SS, now has a Hawke 2-7x32AO Mildot which I think is a much better balanced option.

Never tried hunting with it, and as suggested above, there are other options for accurately and humanely killing when you get further out. Inside 30 or 40yds would be fine for birds, and I think accurate enough for head shots.

Yeah, you’re probably right.

I really like my cheap, plastic, lightweight .22 cal Crosman Nitro Piston. That thing is a real hammer. Much more powerful than the HW50S I’d guess, and about the same length and lighter weight too. And even with it’s light weight it doesn’t have an abundance of recoil. Twang is non existent. And I love the .22 pellets for their ease of use and downrange thump.
It’s not super accurate, but I may buy another barrel to try out on it. And the trigger isn’t good, which probably doesn’t help the accuracy. But I plan on putting a roller bearing in the trigger which from reports helps immensely.

The only problem with the .22 is it doesn’t shoot quite as flat as an equivalently powered .177, as the same power in .177 is a good bit faster. But .22 is so much easier to handle the pellets and the splat factor is no contest.

i have found that i also greatly prefer the .22 for the reasons you mentioned. i just mounted a 4x hawke scope on my hw50s in .22 and must say im very impressed. the scope i had before would NOT hold zero but this one dialed right in and the rifle is just shooting like a champ now. i almost cant miss. doubt im getting velocity above 500-600 fps, though.