24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,789
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,789
Originally Posted by 358wsm


I'd approach a 20" barrel exactly the way I would one that was 22" or 24" or 26"

Accuracy trumps.


+2


Used to be bobski, member since '01
HR IC

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,895
D
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,895
Interesting, as I was eyeing a particular 18 1/2 inch 300 weatherby for sale locally at an attractive price, and like the rifle but dismissed it due to barrel length affecting performance of such a cartridge. Already have a long barrel one so I wouldn't be jumping into a different round. Might have to go take another look today. Nobody probably wants it due to the above mentioned misconceptions which I also held myself.


Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,895
D
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,895
As a side note I had one of the 338 guide guns and although I never chrono'd it I never doubted the performance of the 20 inch barrel vs a slightly longer one.
I actually killed my farthest deer with a 18 1/2 inch 7600 in '06 with 180 round nose bullets which would probably be the last rifle you would pick for hunting over a field.
Overthinking is a bad thing most of the time.


Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 5
S
New Member
OP Offline
New Member
S
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 5
When I was mentioning a fire breather I was joking some what. This rifle has a muzzle break on it so it does produce a good flash but nothing that will really start a fire obviously. Accuracy is my number one goal and doing more research I have found some good information on the 4350. I think my order in discover will be 4350, RE19, 4851. Is there a particular magnum primer that everyone recommends? I have only ever used CCI primers, but someone mentioned to me Winchester.

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,324
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,324
I would look at Ramshot Hunter.... it has been a great .338 powder for me and hits in the burn rate window of the powders you are looking at. YMMV


PASS IT ON!
IC B2

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,365
G
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
G
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,365
RL-19 for sure

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,703
J
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
J
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,703
Ruger SP-101, 2.5" .357 Mag....here is your flame thrower! smile Seriously though...it is a worthwhile experiment to find out what gives the best velocity/less flash & report for a short rifle. I hope you post your results when you find it! smile

Last edited by Jim_Knight; 07/11/18.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 289
4
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
4
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 289
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by 416RigbyHunter
My experience is different to the powders recommended so far.
Since I got my first 338, the ONLY powder that gave great accuracy has been RE19, the best part of that is the fact it runs 100fps faster than any other powder I tried behind the 225gr Accubond. I ran with a load in either Win or Rem brass, WLRM primer and 76gr of RE19 with 225gr Accubonds, this gave me 2890fps in a 26” barrel and 2820fps in a 24” barrel.
With 200gr bullets and lighter, 2 powders stood out for me, Win 760 and H4350.

Picking a powder is not governed by barrel length, it is governed by what performance you want.
For me, I look at several manuals, starting with the bullet manufacturers data, then look at several other sources and look for the powder that provides the HIGHEST velocity across all those sources, then I evaluate IF it is going to be sourcable, as Alliant powders here are impossible to get, then I will select the three TOP powders across those manuals that are the highest velocity providers. The reason for this is because those powders are the most suitable in efficiency for that expansion ratio. Then I will load 3 cases starting at 5% reduction from max and work up in 1gr increments and shoot groups, choose the tightest group and then do a ladder at 300mtr with +/- .3gr increments.

Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
I'd start with H4350

With my 26" barrel, I've had good luck with both H4831 and H4350. With shorter barrels it preferable to favor the faster powder, but no need to go crazy far in that direction. Just stay off the crazy slow for caliber side of the burn chart and you will do fine. The slowest powders for caliber produce the best velocities in longer barrels.


This statement about faster powders being preferrable in short barrels is complete BS.
The powder that provides the FASTEST velocity in a LONG barrel will also be the powder that provides the fastest velocities in a SHORT barrel.

It is time for this MYTH to be buried forever, it is simply false and misleading.


You are factually wrong. Long barrels favor slower powders, but so slow enough and they will plateau in shorter barrels before reaching maximum powder charge. By the same token, you don't have to go much faster to mitigate this effect. As I mentioned above, a small change, such as going from H4831 to H4350 can be enough for proper mitigation.

I totally disagree with you.
Having a pressure trace shows me barrel length has nothing to do with slow or fast powders being preferred in short or long barrels.
Max pressure and burning of the powder occur within an inch or two of the case mouth, the burn rate doesn’t change this, all that changes is the TIME under maximum pressure, which is governed by burn rate, not barrel length. Even with a 16” barrel, the slow for calibre powder will have higher velocity than a fast for calibre powder. The reason is simple, the slow powder pushes the bullet for a longer time. Period.
Many believe that a faster powder will provide MORE velocity in a short barrel due to time, this is simply false, as a sloww powder expands for a longer time, even in a short barrel.

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,609
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,609
Originally Posted by 416RigbyHunter
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by 416RigbyHunter
My experience is different to the powders recommended so far.
Since I got my first 338, the ONLY powder that gave great accuracy has been RE19, the best part of that is the fact it runs 100fps faster than any other powder I tried behind the 225gr Accubond. I ran with a load in either Win or Rem brass, WLRM primer and 76gr of RE19 with 225gr Accubonds, this gave me 2890fps in a 26” barrel and 2820fps in a 24” barrel.
With 200gr bullets and lighter, 2 powders stood out for me, Win 760 and H4350.

Picking a powder is not governed by barrel length, it is governed by what performance you want.
For me, I look at several manuals, starting with the bullet manufacturers data, then look at several other sources and look for the powder that provides the HIGHEST velocity across all those sources, then I evaluate IF it is going to be sourcable, as Alliant powders here are impossible to get, then I will select the three TOP powders across those manuals that are the highest velocity providers. The reason for this is because those powders are the most suitable in efficiency for that expansion ratio. Then I will load 3 cases starting at 5% reduction from max and work up in 1gr increments and shoot groups, choose the tightest group and then do a ladder at 300mtr with +/- .3gr increments.

Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
I'd start with H4350

With my 26" barrel, I've had good luck with both H4831 and H4350. With shorter barrels it preferable to favor the faster powder, but no need to go crazy far in that direction. Just stay off the crazy slow for caliber side of the burn chart and you will do fine. The slowest powders for caliber produce the best velocities in longer barrels.


This statement about faster powders being preferrable in short barrels is complete BS.
The powder that provides the FASTEST velocity in a LONG barrel will also be the powder that provides the fastest velocities in a SHORT barrel.

It is time for this MYTH to be buried forever, it is simply false and misleading.


You are factually wrong. Long barrels favor slower powders, but so slow enough and they will plateau in shorter barrels before reaching maximum powder charge. By the same token, you don't have to go much faster to mitigate this effect. As I mentioned above, a small change, such as going from H4831 to H4350 can be enough for proper mitigation.

I totally disagree with you.
Having a pressure trace shows me barrel length has nothing to do with slow or fast powders being preferred in short or long barrels.
Max pressure and burning of the powder occur within an inch or two of the case mouth, the burn rate doesn’t change this, all that changes is the TIME under maximum pressure, which is governed by burn rate, not barrel length. Even with a 16” barrel, the slow for calibre powder will have higher velocity than a fast for calibre powder. The reason is simple, the slow powder pushes the bullet for a longer time. Period.
Many believe that a faster powder will provide MORE velocity in a short barrel due to time, this is simply false, as a sloww powder expands for a longer time, even in a short barrel.



Unless my chronograph was lying to me (which I doubt), I've seen this phenomenon in the real world.

Why most people such as yourself don't believe it's because they are not using powders at the bleeding edge of slow for bullet weight, with compressed loads. It occurs in a narrow window, which is probably why you've failed to capture it in your limited testing, but it's still there.

As for the math and taking the integral of the quadratic to derive the area under the curve, so you're not telling me anything I don't already know, but there's additonal forces you are not accounting for, which is why experimentally, you are wrong.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817
B
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
B
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817
Originally Posted by 416RigbyHunter
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by 416RigbyHunter
My experience is different to the powders recommended so far.
Since I got my first 338, the ONLY powder that gave great accuracy has been RE19, the best part of that is the fact it runs 100fps faster than any other powder I tried behind the 225gr Accubond. I ran with a load in either Win or Rem brass, WLRM primer and 76gr of RE19 with 225gr Accubonds, this gave me 2890fps in a 26” barrel and 2820fps in a 24” barrel.
With 200gr bullets and lighter, 2 powders stood out for me, Win 760 and H4350.

Picking a powder is not governed by barrel length, it is governed by what performance you want.
For me, I look at several manuals, starting with the bullet manufacturers data, then look at several other sources and look for the powder that provides the HIGHEST velocity across all those sources, then I evaluate IF it is going to be sourcable, as Alliant powders here are impossible to get, then I will select the three TOP powders across those manuals that are the highest velocity providers. The reason for this is because those powders are the most suitable in efficiency for that expansion ratio. Then I will load 3 cases starting at 5% reduction from max and work up in 1gr increments and shoot groups, choose the tightest group and then do a ladder at 300mtr with +/- .3gr increments.

Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
I'd start with H4350

With my 26" barrel, I've had good luck with both H4831 and H4350. With shorter barrels it preferable to favor the faster powder, but no need to go crazy far in that direction. Just stay off the crazy slow for caliber side of the burn chart and you will do fine. The slowest powders for caliber produce the best velocities in longer barrels.


This statement about faster powders being preferrable in short barrels is complete BS.
The powder that provides the FASTEST velocity in a LONG barrel will also be the powder that provides the fastest velocities in a SHORT barrel.

It is time for this MYTH to be buried forever, it is simply false and misleading.


You are factually wrong. Long barrels favor slower powders, but so slow enough and they will plateau in shorter barrels before reaching maximum powder charge. By the same token, you don't have to go much faster to mitigate this effect. As I mentioned above, a small change, such as going from H4831 to H4350 can be enough for proper mitigation.

I totally disagree with you.
Having a pressure trace shows me barrel length has nothing to do with slow or fast powders being preferred in short or long barrels.
Max pressure and burning of the powder occur within an inch or two of the case mouth, the burn rate doesn’t change this, all that changes is the TIME under maximum pressure, which is governed by burn rate, not barrel length. Even with a 16” barrel, the slow for calibre powder will have higher velocity than a fast for calibre powder. The reason is simple, the slow powder pushes the bullet for a longer time. Period.
Many believe that a faster powder will provide MORE velocity in a short barrel due to time, this is simply false, as a sloww powder expands for a longer time, even in a short barrel.
...........................+2 and more. 416 RH is right.........Example: Using 66 gr of RL17 behind a 180 gr bullet, my 300 WSM shorty tubed Ruger Frontier gets just over 2900 fps. NO WAY can any faster burning powder do that. Short barrel loadings for top velocities? Just follow what works from the longer tubes.


28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger


IC B3

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,046
A
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
A
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,046
Originally Posted by Dogslife57
Interesting, as I was eyeing a particular 18 1/2 inch 300 weatherby for sale locally at an attractive price, and like the rifle but dismissed it due to barrel length affecting performance of such a cartridge. Already have a long barrel one so I wouldn't be jumping into a different round. Might have to go take another look today. Nobody probably wants it due to the above mentioned misconceptions which I also held myself.


Weatherby did a run of short barreled rifles in the 80's and I loaded for a 7mm Remington with the shorty tube.
It taught me that the same powders for a 26" barrel generated the best performance in a short tube so I did the test again with other rifles up to a 9.3x62 and found the same results. Also found a lot of lot to lot powder variation up to 6% per lot at that time, so many things have improved over the years.
Forget tube length and follow the reloading data for best powder vs highest velocity.
John


When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
703 members (10gaugemag, 204guy, 007FJ, 12344mag, 10Glocks, 17CalFan, 75 invisible), 2,954 guests, and 1,316 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,767
Posts18,401,495
Members73,823
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.090s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8607 MB (Peak: 0.9820 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 15:25:10 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS