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Originally Posted by Bugger


Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
the quickest and easiest way to accomplish this is to use quality dies. Perhaps not the cheapest, but still the best. Since I've started using Forster dies I can almost throw away my concentrically gauge.


Since I haven’t shot for competition since 1985, I don’t often worry much about deer loads because I like to get close. But coyote and PD shooting...

Forester as good as other dies in the +$100 range?


Better in my opinion.

The only time I buy Redding Benchrest dies now is when it's an odd ball caliber that I can't get in Forster.

Brownells finally had Forster dies for my next build, 6x45, so I'm happy to have those on the way.


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Thanks. There’s no way that I’m going to straighten every PD bullet. But having dies that good would be worth it.


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Forster dies are all that I buy any more.

I can tell the difference in .002/.008" runout in all my rifles. If you're talking about a 1.5 moa rifle then you probably couldn't tell the difference, but mine all shoot better than that with good ammo. In my experience going from .002 to .008" runout will at least double your group sizes.

If I'm seeing .008" runout then there's something wrong with my setup and I tweak it until it's fixed.

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Isn't anyone going to answer Lastrounds question? I've seen good answers to questions that were not asked. In my somewhat limited experience, the answer is yes or close to it.

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Forster's primary sizing dies (those with an expander ball) are very good, and I use several.

But aside from being well-made, the other reason they result in straighter case necks (and hence loaded rounds) is the expander ball's high up inside the die, just below the neck portion of the die. Thus the neck of the case is still inside the neck portion of the die when it's pulled back over the expander, so the case is forced to remain in-line with the die. This definitely results in straighter necks than standard sizing dies where the expander ball is down near the bottom of the case, where necks can pull out of alignment.

That said, if the case necks aren't very even in thickness the neck alignment can still be a little off even with Forster dies, but generally not more than .002".

Through experimentation I've found other makes of full-length dies produce very straight cases IF the expander ball's raised to just under the neck portion of the die. I've found basic RCBS dies can be adjusted to do exactly this--though of course decapping the case requires another step (one reason a Lee decapping die permanently resides in one hole of my turret presses).

I tend to use bushing dies when loading bigger batches of brass, or Lee collet dies. But there's no doubt that "hand dies" produce the very straightest brass, whether the basic Lee Loaders, or more sophisticated dies like Wilsons. Have loaded consistently sub-half-inch (5-shot groups) .22 Hornet ammo with Lee Loader "hand" dies.

The best bullet alignment results in any of my "press dies" comes from Redding Competition bushing dies in 6mm PPC, with sorted and neck-turned Lapua and Norma brass. Bullet runout is a maximum of .0005", one reason 5-shot groups from my Erhardt benchrest rifle average well under .2 inch at 100 yards, despite my less-than-perfect bench techniques.


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Some great information on this thread. I've just recently purchased a Hornady concentricity gauge and I checked the handloaded ammo I had on hand for five different chamberings. All needed some tweaking to get the runout at or under 0.002" but the worst offender was my .280 Ackley. I'm amazed it has shot as well as it has with the runout I found on these rounds. Hopefully it will group even better with straight ammo.


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Thanks for that MD! I’m looking at Graf’s website (I’ll be looking at others too) and trying to determine what if any dies to order.
For instance, I have several hunting rifles (all 700’s or 721’s) that 1/2 MOA or less is possible with selected loads. But to do that the brass is hand picked/worked over and careful reloading. I’m using mostly RCBS standard dies and the brass is plain old Remington or Winchester brass.
Shooting at long range is the basic reason for wanting to improve accuracy. But a slight varying breeze can screw up accuracy and I wonder will reducing group size .1 to .2 MOA be worth ~$60 per cartridge???

What I mainly gather from your comments is concentricity is the bottom line (the straight line if you will) therefore just buying/using a benchrest seating die may not improve the accuracy and the sizing die (besides the case prep) is similarly important as the seating die.

I have several PD rifles, the one cartridge I use most for PD has been 223. (Subject to change to 204 Ruger).
Therefore, before I dump $1,000+ in replacing dies, I think I’ll start with one set of 223 dies or perhaps 204 dies and do some or a lot of testing.

It’s unbelievable that we have on-line access to someone with your experience and expertise. Thanks again.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by vapodog
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My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. What say you?


You just answered your own question.....further.....you didn't ask.....unless you have a benchrest quality rifle, the entire process you mentioned is a waste of time.


I disagree. I load for several different sporters that very well show the difference between .008" and .002" runout cartridges.


I have too. I generally shoot for .003" TIR or less, because of this. Generally my dies get me in that ballpark without all the hassle the OP states he has to go through..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
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Originally Posted by Steve Redgwell
Originally Posted by lastround
about straight cartridges vs straightened cartridges. When reloading rifle cartridges, I try to get the most concentricity I can with what I have in the way of equipment. When re-sizing, I make sure my die is squared up with the shell holder. I remove the decamper/expander stem from the die then replace it loosely after re-sizing and expand the neck on a downstroke so as to not disturb the neck alignment. I measure neck thickness on each piece of brass for uniformity. When seating the bullet, I am careful to keep it as straight as possible. My goal is to keep concentricity within .0002 or less on each cartridge, yet on about one out of four that I run thru my concentricity gauge exceeds that amount up to .006/.008. I use the Tru-tool or the Hornady gauge itself to straighten those that are out of spec. My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? Should I cull out the “straightened” cartridges for plinking use? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. Sometimes “yes” and sometimes “no”. What say you?


I think what you need to do is examine how you are setting up your die. I am confused, or perhaps fail to understand why 1 out of every 4 seems to be excessive. If the die is set up correctly, and everything is tight, then all the cartridges should be fine, unless you have a bad die. But heck, even If the die was the problem, then run out would be excessive for most if not all of them. Don't mess with the decapper. Install it tightly, the way the manufacturer describes. Wobbly parts introduce inconsistencies.

I would start from scratch and set up the die according to the manufacturer's recommendation. Don't overthink the method.

The last thing, "My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer." suggests to me that you must start back at the beginning. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are trying to do too much. Don't attempt to load cartridges using any method other than what is in the manufacturer's instructions. The KISS principle is the way to go here. Ignore anything that you've read WRT die set up and stick with the basics.




Good post Steve, I do the same as you do... Keep it simple..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
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Originally Posted by sambo3006
Some great information on this thread. I've just recently purchased a Hornady concentricity gauge and I checked the handloaded ammo I had on hand for five different chamberings. All needed some tweaking to get the runout at or under 0.002" but the worst offender was my .280 Ackley. I'm amazed it has shot as well as it has with the runout I found on these rounds. Hopefully it will group even better with straight ammo.



You need to start with your die set and make sure it is adjusted properly. You can minimize run out tremendously by just adjusting the die... This is probably the case with that .280 AI...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
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Also check to see your decapping rod and expander ball are in alignment, not bent or threaded badly/crooked where the expander ball attaches. It should be checked to be sure it has no run out. Seen them on occasion where they resemble a banana rolling across a table. Hard to make straight necks when they're like that.

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I have been using MDs idea on how to make standard sizing dies preform better.


Through experimentation I've found other makes of full-length dies produce very straight cases IF the expander ball's raised to just under the neck portion of the die. I've found basic RCBS dies can be adjusted to do exactly this--though of course decapping the case requires another step (one reason a Lee decapping die permanently resides in one hole of my turret presses).Quote JB

Plus I free float the die in place.A lot of folks think free floating the die means to leave it loose.Not so.You run the case up into the die with the expanding ball loose.As you start the stroke down and the inside of the case neck goes onto the expander ball,you tighten the ball down.The die is now free floated and you can finish your sizing.Yes it takes and extra step of using the universal decaping die first,but run out is at a mininum.I don`t even check the runout anymore as I am not shooting BR.JMHO,Huntz

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Originally Posted by vapodog
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by vapodog
Quote
My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. What say you?


You just answered your own question.....further.....you didn't ask.....unless you have a benchrest quality rifle, the entire process you mentioned is a waste of time.


I disagree. I load for several different sporters that very well show the difference between .008" and .002" runout cartridges.
If his ability can't discern a difference it's still a waste of time.
precisely.....


No, not precisely. My disagreement is with the "unless you have a benchrest quality rifle" assertion.

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Originally Posted by super T
Isn't anyone going to answer Lastrounds question? I've seen good answers to questions that were not asked. In my somewhat limited experience, the answer is yes or close to it.


I answered "it depends". Rounds that needed a lot of straightening haven't shot as well for me as those needing only a little.

Aalf straightens his, but I don't know how much. I bet his starting point is pretty straight already.

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Originally Posted by lastround
Steve,
To clarify, I don’t remove primers with the sizing die but instead use a universal decapper for that purpose. The reason I leave the expander stem loose is that I re-size without it in the die, then in an added step I re-install the stem and expand the necks on the upstroke of the case. I leave it loose thinking it will self-center as it goes into the case.


I too, use an old Lee decapping die that I bought in the dim times. smile

Just for fun, try tightening up the expander/decapping assy, decap with it, and check the runout. You don't have to do a lot, but based on what you said about 1 in 4 cases being excessive, try running 20 or so cases through and check the runout just using the one die. They should all measure the same. If they all measure 0.002, then your loose expander was the likely culprit. Problem solved.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Forster's primary sizing dies (those with an expander ball) are very good, and I use several.

But aside from being well-made, the other reason they result in straighter case necks (and hence loaded rounds) is the expander ball's high up inside the die, just below the neck portion of the die. Thus the neck of the case is still inside the neck portion of the die when it's pulled back over the expander, so the case is forced to remain in-line with the die. This definitely results in straighter necks than standard sizing dies where the expander ball is down near the bottom of the case, where necks can pull out of alignment.

That said, if the case necks aren't very even in thickness the neck alignment can still be a little off even with Forster dies, but generally not more than .002"


Another reason I like Forsters is their honing service. About half my full length forster dies have been honed to my desired neck diameter. I usually take a skim cut with the neck turner then have the die honed to .003" less than a loaded round. I throw away the expander ball. I've had good luck with the honed dies.

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You can easily check this.

Take 10 rounds that meet you specs. and group them.
Take 10 rounds that did not meet your specs. and group them.
Take 10 rounds that did not meet your specs., stragthen them, and group them.

Unless you are a very good shot, with good equipment (and I do not know the answer), you may find that your shooting abilities are more inconsistent than your handloads.

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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by super T
Isn't anyone going to answer Lastrounds question? I've seen good answers to questions that were not asked. In my somewhat limited experience, the answer is yes or close to it.

I answered "it depends". Rounds that needed a lot of straightening haven't shot as well for me as those needing only a little.
Aalf straightens his, but I don't know how much. I bet his starting point is pretty straight already.

I thought I answered it as well.....

My BR rounds, prior to straightening, range from zero runout to maybe a couple thou or so. All get checked, and any over about a half get straightened. All get put in the box randomly as record rounds.

Once in a while you'll get one that you chase back and forth to straighten, & I will cull that one for a foul/sighter shot.

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You can easily check this.

Take 10 rounds that meet you specs. and group them.
Take 10 rounds that did not meet your specs. and group them.
Take 10 rounds that did not meet your specs., straighten them, and group them.


I think GeorgiaBoy answered the question the very well.


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No offense meant, but it is amazing how many answers I got to a question I did not ask and solutions to problems I do not have. But thanks to all who answered my post. And I am waiting for a new Forster sizing die. Have a good evening...........


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