Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Ky. Creationists build Noahs Ark (complete with dinosaurs)

One of the few cogent posts here. I believe the flood was a real event as as the Hebrew narrative of Genesis is of the historical genre and for just one other reason, Noah and other OT saints were mentioned in the NT as actual real persons.

The flood I believe was a completely supernatural event changing the environment completely from pre-diluvian times (for example, with an ensuing ice age), perhaps radiation decay rates also (which would play havoc with our radiometric dating methods of today) as well as allowing increased atmospheric radiation and certainly causing extreme climate change (perhaps Al Gore meant from then?). Undoubtedly, there were many other changes also.

And yes, I’d like to reiterate your statement that “there is such an enormous amount of solid rational evidence” for what we are discussing.

good points. it seems like you kinda allude to human consciousness. perhaps it's the last frontier? one could argue that outer space is the final frontier. but, someone in another 200 years might come along and conclude that outer space is a just a part of our condition that involves human consciousness.

the holographic universe as some might call it, as an analogy, maybe.

the buddhists do have some insights..to the point there might be a fusion of buddhism & christianity a little further down the road.

we've already got attempted fusions of christianity & islam being proffered. no tellin' what the internet will finally bring us.

It seems you didn't learn about the part if the land was smoothed out the water would be about two miles deep. I heard it in two different lectures by Ph.D scientists. Both started as evolutionists and were converted to creation by their scientific observations. The first one was a Ph.D in hydraulics and water sedimentation. While studying in the Grand Canyon he discovered the layers had to be laid down in one continuous flood. The other was a chemist. He discovered it based on the time it takes for coal and oil to form. He said, "If it does not form quickly, it doesn't form at all." He decided a world wide flood could cause the conditions necessary to produce both. In a question and answer session he said a better question would be, "Where did all the land come from?"

wildly speculative, but might have to do with the fact that water is less dense than the average earth fill?

even more speculative, is that the earth may be more dense than it use to be? that is, the water floats on top of the earth's landbase, and fills in the "low" spots. the high spots of land include mountains, piedmont, etc.

it is all very interesting, for certain. a lot of folks have wondered why didn't the water soak or percolate into the earth, and become super-heated.

Yes Gus...humans are in an 'asleep' sickly state full of illusion.

and its said the task of metaphysician Christ is to destroy illusion.

Christ was not a metaphysician.

He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
(Mat 16:15-17)

Creationists have claimed there is geological fossil evidence of widespread rapid burial underwater.
and rely on such as evidence for a global flood.

Yet examples of such fossils show evidence of carnivory....

Compsognathus - found with a lizard in its belly
T. rex coprolite (fossil dung) found with a high proportion (30–50%) of bone fragments.

That depends on which christian you talk to....some say he was Physician of the Body and Metaphysician of the Soul.
scripture shows him ministering and administering toward both body and soul.

He also describes himself as a physician for the sick.

i really like pondering on the mystical aspects of Jesus's life. probably as a minority viewpoint, i like to place emphasis on his teachings. but, we can emphasize any aspect that we wish, i suppose.

he healed the sick, the lame, the blind. maybe brought some back from the dead. yes, i'd say he was a metaphysician for sure, not to discount his other aspects.

That only addresses a couple of issues, and even then doesn't really answer. Taking it from the top, if the earth was completely "smoothed out" and all sources of water (including that currently trapped in rocks, as ice, and as water vapour) was available to cover it, the depth would be about 2700 m - rather less than 2 miles. That would be nowhere near covering Ararat (nearly 4000 m), let alone covering all the high mountains under the heavens ...to a depth of more than 15 cubits (Genesis 7:19-20), And of course the earth is not smoothed, nor was it smoothed during the Great Flood - the references to mountains confirm that.

As for whether the original ocean was salty or fresh, the thing is that there are forms of marine life that can only live in the one, or the other due (among other things) to the problem of osmoregulation. If all life was created in the first six days, these differences would have had to exist pre-Flood. If the sea was fresh water, those life forms adapted for life in the salt would not survive. Conversely those adapted for freshwater streams would not survive in the salt. There are comparatively few which can go from one to the other. If the Flood then comes along, clearly you replace a situation where there are rivers and springs of fresh water and seas of salt with floodwater of intermediate salinity (and high turbidity too), in which many species just could not have survived. Your alternative scenario, that the seas were fresh and then became salty with the Great Flood is equally problematic, because such a situation would kill all those life forms not adapted to that huge change in osmotic pressure.

There also those species which are littoral, depending on tides to wash in and then expose them over the course of each day, they all die too under 15 cubits of water over the highest mountain.

The salt at Bonneville Salt Flats is not "hundreds if not thousands of feet deep". It is up to 5 feet deep, in the deepest part, and tapers away to about an inch deep around the edges.

You say "we have no idea about plants and animals 4500 years ago". But in fact we do, both if you accept current science and if you insist on the literal truth of Genesis. Science tells us about plants and animals which existed 4500 years ago in a number of ways, including the fact that there are samples of them which have been found, including plant material, bones etc., there is DNA, there's cave art and even the fact that there are some living life forms which are actually more than 4500 years old. If instead we accept the literal truth of Genesis, all plants and animals alive now were made by the Creator in the first six days. They weren't replaced with different ones post-Flood, and so the olive tree of Genesis is the same olive tree now.

"The Bible tells us everything alive was vegetarian prior to the Flood." Well, it actually tells us that Abel kept flocks, and brought fat portions to offer the Lord. Jabal and his descendants also kept flocks. Putting that to one side, there are animals which in fact cannot survive on a vegetarian diet. They are obligate carnivores - cannot survive without meat. They don't have the specialised adaptations required for a vegetarian diet. As well as teeth adapted only for gripping and tearing meat, or crushing bones, or venom, or muscles to constrict prey, their digestive system simply cannot process vegetable matter. The changes necessary for them to go from a vegetarian diet to a meat diet would be quite major changes to their body.

But yet there are deposits at various stages in the process from plant matter to peat to lignite to anthracite, indicating deposition at widely divergent dates, and we have good evidence for the mechanisms leading from one to another, including time, heat and pressure, and the long period over which these take place..

Treating Christ as a meataphysician is a typical path to mysticism. Who and what Christ was is simple. He was the Messiah prophecied of in the Old testament. He had many names but never metapyhsician.

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
(Joh 14:6)

Even you know there are marine fossil in the Ararat mountains. The problem you have is you think the earth then was the same as now. It wasn't.


Apparently you have not read enough about adaptation.



Apparently you have not read enough about adaptation.



You are looking at the tide flats as they are today. You have no good idea what was happening 4,500 years ago.



Looks like I made a mistake. I will do some checking.



You are assuming dating systems are accurate. Having talked with a couple geologists I have grave reservation about dating things. If you are referring to bristlecone pines, which is the oldest plant I have heard of, are about 4,500 years old. I am a little flexible when it comes to ages. Not very flexible, but some. As far as life forms....all life forms are older than 4,500 years old. They are approximately 6,000 years old.



Again you are looking at things the way they are now. I wouldn't be surprised if there are shepherds alive today who are vegetarians. Flocks produce fiber, leather, and no telling what all internal organs may have been used for. For sure some animals were used for sacrifice. Remember the first killer was God. He killed at least one animal and maybe two to make coverings for Adam and Eve.

I believe you believe what you posted. But I will the word of creationist Ph.D scientists over an internet poster every time. I made a discovery a long time ago. Even before I became a creationist. I discovered if you read enough evolutionists you will discover they all think those who don't agree with them are discredited. Of course I didn't even know there were people who were creation scientists at the time. In fact I discovered scientific creationism years later.

Aguing with ringman about the creation:

I have read quite a lot about it. What adaptation would be required for an animal adapted exclusively to living in salt water to move to fresh, or vice versa? Consider in your answer the structural differences between salt-adapted vs fresh-adapted creatures. How would that be achieved , in the timescale of the Great Flood? If the animals have existed unchanged since Creation, how is this adaptation achieved? And if they are changed since Creation, isn't that evolution?



As above




But as you say, there are fossils. We actually have fossilised littoral zones and fossilised denizens of those littoral zones. If we accept that all of these are artifacts of the Great Flood, then we do have clear evidence of the existence of animals adapted to this habitat, as at the time posited for this Great Flood, some of which continue to exist today. Creatures which could not have survived the Great Flood as described in Genesis.



There's a good idea.



There are Bristlecone Pines well over 5000 years old. But there are also clonal colonies of plants tens of thousands of years old, in various locations around the planet.



Again you have dodged the problem of animals which simply cannot survive without meat. Shepherds can, but snakes and cats and various other species cannot. And they cannot "adapt" to a vegetarian diet either, nor could they have adapted from it, without major structural changes of the sort which would make them completely different animals.

Creationist scientist are not scientist.

Lock T-Rex and his wife in an ark for 12 months and only give them vegan...
it wouldn't be long before they busted down their stalls and went rampaging through the ark
eating anything and everything they liked...

before ya know it Noah would have a carnivore mutiny on his hands...

together with 3500 lb cave bears, 1100 lb lions and 1100 lb tigers, make for interesting hunger games.

then thrown in other things like ... 'Purussaurus brasilensis' ancient croc around 40ft long and 8 tons...
or even...

'Jaekelopterus rhenaniae', .. 8 foot giant scorpions.

All we know is that God gave Noah size specifications and some other requirements. Whether he drew up a blueprint to follow, is speculation. It's a long trek from having basic knowledge of how a boat should be built and what shape it should take.....to being a naval architect. I made no such claim. I think it's reasonable to admit that people of the time who lived near water at some point in their life may have seen or used at least canoes. I also think it's reasonable to expect that they could know a rounded and faired hull wouldn't get slapped around like a flat bottom and flat side, and would be stronger as well. It ain't rocket science - for anyone who's been around various boats.



Absolutely agreed. Again, we can't know, but it makes sense.



No way am I buying the long box Ark idea. Rudder or no, that thing is going to be torture, unless the water remains flat and calm. A cataclysmic flood lasting for months and changing the earth's climate and structure doesn't sound conducive to those conditions. Sure, God can do anything he desires, but we can get into a lot of pointless discussion about why he would need to have a boat at all if the boat has to be continuously steadied by his hand.



True. But if without evidence of otherwise, I'm going to assume that people of Noah's time weren't as ignorant as most people think. And I'm going to assume that God allows some logic to be applied.

So also safe to assume Adam & Eve had a canoe?..since Genesis mentions 4 rivers associated with the garden of Eden.
Genesis 2:10
" And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads."

if boating wasn't part of their lifestyle, id say they were not making the most of things...



Seems God doesn't trust Noah to have the fundamental sound knowledge of boat building...for he had to
specifically tell him the type of timber and about requirement to tar the structure:

Genesis 6:14
"Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch".




Anyone who's 'been around various boats' in Noahs time likely wouldn't need be told what specific timbers or about taring the inside/out
of the hull...If Noah don't already know that, then it don't seem wise to safely assume he knew of the best basic hull shape for the task.