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Is there something wrong with believing in God?
I believe in God. I also believe in evolution. I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive.
Critters change over time. I believe that God created that structure and gave Life the ability to transform.
Be fruitful, multiply, and change.
Simple.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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if ya think all the birds, animals, and reptilians on the ark might have made an organic mess, just consider 7.2 billion humans and everyone of them
crapping in their easter basket. the microbes are extra busy converting things from one organic form to another...
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Microbres/bacteria how vital-important they are in function of organisms and the life cycles on urth ...things that you and I would avoid are relished by nature. and things that God thinks only deserve death/wrath and destruction are actually found a use for by Jesus, like a dung beetle makes use of waste.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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With todays evangelists ordering new executive jets,
Today's evangelists aren't buying executive jets. A few dudes on TV are buying executive jets. 10s of thousands of evangelists are flying coach.
Last edited by OldHat; 07/18/18.
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Is there something wrong with believing in God?
Not only is there nothing wrong with believing in God, it is rational and wise to believe in Him.
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and things that God thinks only deserve death/wrath and destruction are actually found a use for by Jesus, like a dung beetle makes
use of waste.
Your understanding of Christianity seems wrong. You seem to think Jesus and God are unrelated. They are not. 1) Jesus is God 2) The wrath of God is reserved for those who reject Him.
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Actually. I recall a documentary quite a few years ago, where they built a model to the scale specs of the Ark, and subjected it to simulated 60foot waves. It was the most stable design they tested. So, what designs did they test? My experience tells me to bet it looked something like an old school whitewater tripping canoe. "God gave Noah the dimensions for the Ark in cubits. “And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.” (Genesis 6:15)" ( 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in width and 30 cubits in height (450 × 75 × 45 ft or 137 × 22.9 × 13.7 m).) It would need to be a closed structure against wave and weather. The model looked somewhat like a coffin, and rode the turmoil like a wood chip, but never flipped, or sank. (Iirc) they tested it against all other designs known to that region and age.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Actually. I recall a documentary quite a few years ago, where they built a model to the scale specs of the Ark, and subjected it to simulated 60foot waves. It was the most stable design they tested. So, what designs did they test? My experience tells me to bet it looked something like an old school whitewater tripping canoe. "God gave Noah the dimensions for the Ark in cubits. “And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.” (Genesis 6:15)" ( 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in width and 30 cubits in height (450 × 75 × 45 ft or 137 × 22.9 × 13.7 m).) It would need to be a closed structure against wave and weather. The model looked somewhat like a coffin, and rode the turmoil like a wood chip, but never flipped, or sank. (Iirc) they tested it against all other designs known to that region and age. From what I read about cubits they were anywhere from 17 1/2" -22" long. I bet ol' Ken used 22" for his cubits. I don't want to be a trouble maker, but I want to know what area and design? God's Word tells us, "the world that then was was destroyed." Therefore we have no idea where the ark came from or designs known prior to the Flood. I remember reading an article, containing pictures, about ancient wooden ships that were made AFTER the Flood. Some were up to 200 feet long and looked like the ark in Kentucky.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Actually. I recall a documentary quite a few years ago, where they built a model to the scale specs of the Ark, and subjected it to simulated 60foot waves. It was the most stable design they tested. So, what designs did they test? My experience tells me to bet it looked something like an old school whitewater tripping canoe. "God gave Noah the dimensions for the Ark in cubits. “And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.” (Genesis 6:15)" ( 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in width and 30 cubits in height (450 × 75 × 45 ft or 137 × 22.9 × 13.7 m).) It would need to be a closed structure against wave and weather. The model looked somewhat like a coffin, and rode the turmoil like a wood chip, but never flipped, or sank. (Iirc) they tested it against all other designs known to that region and age. I don't doubt that. I suggest you do a search for the term "sea kindly". Not flipping or sinking is a good start - and that's not hard to accomplish with other shapes - but it's not everything. I don't believe God meant to torture the passengers for months. Where can I see the report of this test? I'd love to see all the details.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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if ya think all the birds, animals, and reptilians on the ark might have made an organic mess, just consider 7.2 billion humans and everyone of them
crapping in their easter basket. the microbes are extra busy converting things from one organic form to another...
.
Microbres/bacteria how vital-important they are in function of organisms and the life cycles on urth ...things that you and I would avoid are relished by nature. and things that God thinks only deserve death/wrath and destruction are actually found a use for by Jesus, like a dung beetle makes use of waste. some serious minded folks have actually shared that they believed the microbes which definitely cover the earth are far more close to god than we humans are. but our ego's simply refuse to accept such a possibility. we all know humans are the apex predator on this earth.
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Ack. Now you're just being argumentative..
No, I am just pointing out how you contradict yourself. people who contradict themselves are actually arguing with themselves.
. I'm just speculating on the possibilities..
saying that its 'safe to assume' things doesn't equate to just speculation. speculation is just conjecture. safe to assume means a person is confident in their theory. Not contradicting myself at all. The contradiction is in your mind. I blew off your comment about tar because it's obvious that you're trying to direct the discussion away from the point now. Since you seem to be hung up on that, I'll comment. Tar is not necessary in all boat construction - even for "primitives". Your assumption that one without the knowledge of the use of tar could not be familiar with small boat design is in error. As for your "speculation" charge....you are deliberately attaching that to the wrong issue. I reiterate... Makes no difference to me whether Noah had the knowledge, was given the knowledge, hired the knowledge or figured it out on his own. I'm just speculating on the possibilities. Those two sentences are together for a reason. The one is referring to the other. I can only speculate where some of the knowledge (best shape for a boat) might have come from - because there are multiple possibilities. The assumption that you seem to be defending here is one of God necessarily being the source of every detail. That is simply not supported by the information available. Whatever....your post was split so much, I chose not to address ever separate question.Now I will, since I have more time. But you'll have to bare with me because I ain't gonna do the fine editing. My answers in color....
No doubt, Noah or anybody would have needed instruction on materials and other things for something that size...
.
anybody?...you mean everyone was ignorant regarding building ships in those times? I mean, everyone was likely ignorant regarding building vessels of large size, yes. What would have been the purpose of any large vessels up to that time, given what we know/assume? Do Arks require different timber to other various size ranging vessels that you say Noah would have already known about? ( check: you were referring to Noah when you said it aint rocket science for....'Anyone who's 'been around various boats'.....??) Obviously, a vessel that size would require different timber than a small vessel could get away with. Why would anyone default to heavier materiel than necessary for a small boat? Wood may not have even been the primary material.Was pitching-taring hulls exclusive to Arks....??.... Noah over centuries [of being around boats] would have seen numbers of various size vessels that had been tared...? I wouldn't say it's exclusive to an Ark. But, as mentioned, I wouldn't assume that there was any need at the time for a large vessel that required such construction before the Ark.
I think it's safe to assume that Noah had knowledge of proper boat construction. .
but not 'materials and other things' required for proper boat construction? that sounds illogical. Again...we're talking about a shape. Construction materials and some other things can be very much size-related.
...Size matters....
...Again, it's the shape of the hull I am focusing on. .
I am using LOGIC [which you made a point of] when I said; If Noah doesn't even know to tar a hull how would he then know which geometry of hull to use? If he's was suppopsedly around various type vessels for centuries how can he know one, but not the other? after all, none of that ranks as rocket science as you say. See above.. And I'm going to assume that God allows some logic to be applied.
The fact God didnt tell him which hull design to use, does not logically mean Noah already knew. It could just mean God knew that Noah of his own accord, would have the intelligence to seek out those experienced shipwrights that did. God knew precisely what he knew and didn't know before issuing the task. I don't think I said anything to contradict that. If I did, it was in error. OTOH - we don't know precisely what God told Noah. We can only make conjecture based on what is written and our assumptions.
I also think it's reasonable to expect that they could know a rounded and faired hull wouldn't get slapped around
like a flat bottom and flat side, and would be stronger as well. It ain't rocket science - for anyone who's been around various boats.
Again you expect Noah to already know about the correct hull design , but not something as basic as taring. that seems rather illogical. Again - see above.Regardless of all that.....if God did, in fact, give Noah et al a "blueprint", you still have a long way to go to convince me that He would have Noah build a torture box just to be size-efficient. Boats are designed with logic, which is often revealed by experience. I would advise for you the same search I mentioned to another poster - "sea kindly". It is a thing. Edit:...and I would further suggest that God would fully understand the physics of moving water and interaction with surfaces and angles, as well as requirements for structural integrity, and he would take that into account when deciding what Noah needed to know or who he needed to hire.
Last edited by FreeMe; 07/18/18.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Actually. I recall a documentary quite a few years ago, where they built a model to the scale specs of the Ark, and subjected it to simulated 60foot waves. It was the most stable design they tested. So, what designs did they test? My experience tells me to bet it looked something like an old school whitewater tripping canoe. "God gave Noah the dimensions for the Ark in cubits. “And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.” (Genesis 6:15)" ( 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in width and 30 cubits in height (450 × 75 × 45 ft or 137 × 22.9 × 13.7 m).) It would need to be a closed structure against wave and weather. The model looked somewhat like a coffin, and rode the turmoil like a wood chip, but never flipped, or sank. (Iirc) they tested it against all other designs known to that region and age. I don't doubt that. I suggest you do a search for the term "sea kindly". Not flipping or sinking is a good start - and that's not hard to accomplish with other shapes - but it's not everything. I don't believe God meant to torture the passengers for months. Where can I see the report of this test? I'd love to see all the details. As I mentioned in my first post, it was quite a while ago. And while I remember watching the program, I do not recall who did it. Or for what network. It was a straight forward science type program. As for sea friendly, I doubt he gave a damn about comfort. Survival was the design parameters.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Your understanding of Christianity seems wrong. You seem to think Jesus and God are unrelated...
nowhere did I say they were not related...many of my past CF posts relate the Father to the Son.
The wrath of God is reserved for those who reject Him.
Gods wrath is what God considers every sinner rightfully deserves.. whether they accept Christ or not, for God gave his Son as a sacrifice out of GRACE, not because sinners deserves such.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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..you still have a long way to go to convince me that He would have Noah build a torture box just to be size-efficient.
I haven't tried to convince you one way or the other on the hull design , but I have questioned how you think.. 'its safe fo assume'.. things, when all you really have is conjecture.
I mean, everyone was likely ignorant regarding building vessels of large size, yes. What would have been the purpose of any large vessels up to that time,
given what we know/assume?
everyone was likely ignorant on building large vessels..? thats sounds like a highly speculative-conjecture based claim to me ...but you express it like its safe to assume such. Gods details to Noah on the Ark are rather few, so would it be logical to think God knew some people already had the additional knowledge required for such task?
The assumption that you seem to be defending here is one of God
necessarily being the source of every detail. That is simply not supported by the information available.
Where have I claimed God was, or had to be , the source of every detail...??? earlier I made this statement:
'The fact God didnt tell him which hull design to use, does not logically mean Noah already knew.
It could just mean God knew that Noah of his own accord, would have the intelligence to seek out
those experienced shipwrights that did. 'obviously from that I am clearly suggesting God didn't provide all or every detail...but you seem totally blind to it.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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....I think it's safe to assume that Noah had knowledge of proper boat construction....
... I'm going to assume that people of Noah's time weren't as ignorant as most people think...
Nothing I can find in scriptures shows Noah personally had proper knowledge of boat construction. [regardless of shape, size or otherwise] or to use your words.... That is simply not supported by the information available. but if you have scriptural evidence to support what you call a safe assumption, you make like to present it to CF readers. without reasonable evidence , it would just be mere conjecture on your part.
Obviously, a vessel that size would require different timber than a small vessel could get away with...
Can you clarify what you mean by 'different ' timber.? and what relative size do you mean by a small vessel?
...we don't know precisely what God told Noah. We can only make conjecture based on what is written and our assumptions.
actually We do know from scripture that God had given Noah some very specific details for the Ark. OALxWxH dimensions...rooms, ...a roof...where to position the window,...number of decks ..side door, .gopherwood, tar inside /out. etc nothing in scripture says God gave him any other details on construction than the Book lists. accordingly I am not inclined to create conjecture that we are missing out on details that God gave Noah on construction , but didnt give us.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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...we all know humans are the apex predator on this earth. the pecking order of APs has changed considerably over time and may do so again. Spinosaurus was the biggest bad ass AP currently known to date that roamed both land and waterways https://dinosours.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/img_2371.jpg..ego driven humans now [temporarily?] have the nuclear advantage, but microbes may win in the end... ... folks have actually shared that they believed the microbes which definitely cover the earth are far more close to god than we humans are. ..' blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the urth'. **** Re: the bio waste generated by humans.. Water into wine, so maybe human waste into..?...Im sure Jesus could do it with the support of his Father. with a Patent protected miracle process, It could prove far more lucrative than being a king,carpenter ,shepherd, judge and physician... 
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Your understanding of Christianity seems wrong. You seem to think Jesus and God are unrelated...
nowhere did I say they were not related...many of my past CF posts relate the Father to the Son. Jesus is God. You talk like He is not. Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" (Joh 20:28)
The wrath of God is reserved for those who reject Him.
Gods wrath is what God considers every sinner rightfully deserves.. whether they accept Christ or not, for God gave his Son as a sacrifice out of GRACE, not because sinners deserves such. Those who accept Christ as the Lord of their life escape His wrath. " He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Joh 3:36)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Gods wrath is what God considers every sinner rightfully deserves.. whether they accept Christ or not, This fly's in the face of who God is and what the Gospel tells us. Anyone who would think so, does not know the Gospel or God.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Re: the bio waste generated by humans.. Water into wine, so maybe human waste into..?...Im sure Jesus could do it with the support of his Father. with a Patent protected miracle process, It could prove far more lucrative than being a king,carpenter ,shepherd, judge and physician... yes, i can see that. in today's postmodern culture, it's easy to imagine god and/or his son working through big pharma to download a miracle cure solution to the bio-geneticists who are striving to find cures for the many diseases & afflictions affecting the apex predator. big pharma for the good of all will quickly patent the solution through the us patent office so it won't get stolen away by the heathen on the urth. with the right miracle drug on the market and advertised righteously, the coffers of the churches might literally explode!
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... As for sea friendly, I doubt he gave a damn about comfort. Survival was the design parameters. "Comfort" implies luxury. That's not at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the difference between getting knocked off your feet, slammed against walls, and puking continuously. Kind of hard to eat under those conditions. Makes survival kind of questionable. Need more room because the boat doesn't have square corners? Make a bigger boat. Appears you and the people behind that program spent little time in boats. But then...maybe the waters were dead calm the whole time (miracle). But that brings up the question, why bother with a boat instead of miraculously saving them on a miraculous mountain top? Or why have a flood at all? Why not just miraculously snap fingers and proclaim all the evil people dead?
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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..you still have a long way to go to convince me that He would have Noah build a torture box just to be size-efficient.
I haven't tried to convince you one way or the other on the hull design , but I have questioned how you think.. 'its safe fo assume'.. things, when all you really have is conjecture.
I mean, everyone was likely ignorant regarding building vessels of large size, yes. What would have been the purpose of any large vessels up to that time,
given what we know/assume?
everyone was likely ignorant on building large vessels..? thats sounds like a highly speculative-conjecture based claim to me ...but you express it like its safe to assume such. Gods details to Noah on the Ark are rather few, so would it be logical to think God knew some people already had the additional knowledge required for such task?
The assumption that you seem to be defending here is one of God
necessarily being the source of every detail. That is simply not supported by the information available.
Where have I claimed God was, or had to be , the source of every detail...??? earlier I made this statement:
'The fact God didnt tell him which hull design to use, does not logically mean Noah already knew.
It could just mean God knew that Noah of his own accord, would have the intelligence to seek out
those experienced shipwrights that did. 'obviously from that I am clearly suggesting God didn't provide all or every detail...but you seem totally blind to it. Break it down... 1) I admit to some conjecture, but my assumptions are based on belief that God uses logic, and God doesn't deliberately torture his creation and chosen ones for no good reason.2) I invite again you to offer an explanation of what would be the purpose of large vessels prior to the flood - based on scripture, since that is what you are limiting me to. 3) In retrospect, you are right. I don't know what you are assuming. Wasn't it you who claimed that God had to tell Noah how to build the Ark - as evidenced by the instruction for gopher wood and tar? I'm losing track in this thread, clearly - but I'm not going to read it again.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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