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Joined: Nov 2008
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The Model 71 was designed by real riflemen, for real men. I'm not surprised it works as intended.
"Never force anything, just get a bigger hammer".
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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All rifles were open sights?
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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The Model 71 was designed by real riflemen, for real men. I'm not surprised it works as intended. REALLY ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I always wonder about shooters that worry about their second shot more than their first.
After the first shot the rest are just noise.
Make mine a Minaska
Heaven has walls and rules, H-ll has open borders
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The Model 71 was designed by real riflemen, for real men. I'm not surprised it works as intended. this real man thing ? I own and shoot a Winchester 71 348 deluxe,many magnums including 375 H&H`S,460 Ruger,338 Lapua,416 Rigby,458 win.mags.458 lott I just don`t feel it???
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,166
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,166 |
The results of that test are absolute bullshyt. They had to be handicapping the bolt rifles with iron sights for the old 71 to compete in accuracy OR speed of accurate fire. Regardless, a Remington 7600 or Browning BAR wearing a scope or red dot sight would have easily whipped them all if accurate repeat fire is the primary goal. There is simply NO WAY iron sights will ever be able to compete with a scope or red dot for sheer speed of aquiring and lining up on a target. .
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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and let`s not forget how accurate and fast a AR-10 with a scope shoots too ? Black heart is correct !
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
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Posts: 668 |
We are not talking about the first shot. Its cycling of the action for repeat shots. Lever actions. So after you have emptied your bear spray, and failed to listen to your Alaskan guide on your Mountain bikes: suddenly MS. Grizz with 2 cubs is on you like last month's bounced rent check. And you NEVER have hunted in Alaska? We are not acquiring sights-you should have already DONE that. Suggest you read Rifle and Handloader old issues with Phil Shoemaker's comments. and let`s not forget how accurate and fast a AR-10 with a scope shoots too ? Black heart is correct ! Please. So, until you have handled a pre-war Model 71 in 450 Alaskan, or hunted grizzlies in the alders-stay safe at the range. Its not an accident that guides in AK have LARGE BORE rifles that work on the 1886-M-95 principle. It takes more than just ONE well aimed shot, you have to STOP a grizzly OR, the grizzly may eventually die, but you will not be alive to see where he went. Multiple shots may be required. Do you have a grizzly mount-shot in AK- above your desk in your outdoor library room? I do. Thank you. Are you a combat veteran-in REAL combat? Bad information on some of these sites can get uninformed people mauled and killed. Like Julie H. one of the two gals drug out of sleeping bags In Glacier National Park. (1967) Get real and get informed. Those Canadian/Alaskan tests were real, conducted by real hunters and real guides.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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well for some people you may be right ? my dear friend a marine, who yes was in viet nam frontline with the rock soldiers and was wounded in viet nam, also lived in Alaska for 20 years, did some bear guiding too ,has killed 3 charging different grizzly bears killed all 3 with a 338 win.mag. in a Remington 700 bolt action, all 3 different years.as he has said to me if you can try to wait the bear out they die slow or if you can get your shots at that bear at a distance, that's were a bolt action magnum might be the right choice.i own a pre war 71 its a great rifle but I`d rather use a 338 win.mag. as the marine has said,he`s seen and been in some real nasty gun battles, he has no fear of man nor beast just his wife ! he also has one of his grizzly bears stuffed by the door when you walk in on a shelf kinda cool too.
Last edited by pete53; 07/23/18.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Joined: Oct 2015
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Campfire Regular
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OP
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Many will not agree on such a controversial rifle subject as "lever vs bolt action" open sights.{ Newer BA rifles have no iron sights}
I have both-- in heavier calibers including a pre-64 M-70 in 375 H&H. For coastal bears in AK the 375 and a 450 AK is what I carry. Depending on alders and thick stuff. Bottom line is people will carry what they carry-many times a "bear rifle" becomes what's in your hands. A heavy revolver in a sturdy holster may save your life if a rifle gets swatted. This thread is about WHAT WORKS. Its not about favorites or personal prejudices.
Another hunter was recently killed by a grizzly in Wyoming. Last year's Forest Service off duty Ranger near Glacier Park----- makes two.
If you make the wrong choice-at the wrong time-someone will read about you and what you used to carry before getting mauled.
Being a combat veteran-I listen to combat vets who have been there. Same with bear hunters and bear guides. Talk is cheap. Experience is expensive.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Interesting test, but I cant help but wonder about the results. There is no doubt that the average shooter will shoot a lever faster than a bolt gun, but I have seen some guys ( most of them European hunters) that could run a bolt awfully fast. Being a lefty I love lever guns, and I do carry one guiding a lot. My question would be about barrel length. The longer barrel might aid cycling during a test on a rifle range, but it is detrimental in the pucker brush when you're trailing a wounded bear.
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Joined: Oct 2015
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The 22 and 24 in barrels on my early 450 pre-war Model 71 rifles are really not that long compared to my pre-64 M-70 in 375. Phil Shoemaker tends to agree on lever action rifles. No hunter can really guess the outcome of following a wounded grizzly into the alders. I would prefer a balanced fast handling early Winchester 1886-M-71, but that is just me. The barrel length on this test of the Marlin was less than 19 inches, and that is just legal-and interferes with function on repeat shots-for most hunters.
Its all personal preference, but the stakes can be high.
The Jackson, WY outfitter and elk guide is not alive to tell his story on a backup gun in a bow hunt. The bear was defending an overnight elk pile. There was a Glock pistol and my bet is the guide did not chamber a round from the magazine. It was safe-too safe for the inexperienced hunter to use it. The trigger snapped on an empty chamber. I sometimes carry a Colt New Service revolver in 45 Colt. Same pistol as carried by the RCMP-the Mounties for years. It has a lanyard ring and strong cord. It will not be lost in the snow or fail to function-for six rounds.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
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Yes a pistol can be a lifesaver when things go really bad. When I first started guiding years ago I worked with a fellow that had been mauled by a wounded grizzly he was following. He wouldnt have survived if it wasn't for a young horse wrangler. The young fellow was waiting out in a clearing and heard Ross screaming. He went in with a 30-30 and killed the bear. It was a big one too, it went book. I shoot left handed and do like lever guns. I used the Marlin GG as a backup rifle for many years and had to use it on wounded bears a few times. It worked great for me, I like the way the gun balances and find it incredibly fast, although in most cases you are only going to get one shot anyway. I switched to a bolt gun a few years ago and doubt I would ever go back to a lever for guiding. In terms of just speed the Savage 99 is likely the fastest lever ever made. One of those in 358 would be hard to beat in the thick stuff.
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