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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619 |
Tradition is not always a good thing. The turned-down eyes on hooks and the Turle knot were invented specifically for gut leaders. Gut required a knot that didn't crimp down on itself (like a clinch knot does) but the Turle made the fly ride "cocked" when tied to a straight-eyed hook. So hook makers started turning down the eyes so the Turle knot and gut leader gave a straight pull.
Monofilimant line came along, but hook makers are STILL making fly hooks with turned-down eyes. Even though nobody has used a gut leader in more than seven decades. There's absolutely no need for turned-down fly hooks today, but...
Well, it's tradition. Turned down eyes on beadheads help keep the hook point up...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: May 2003
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,209 |
That's possibly true, SD. By the same reasoning, they would tend to flip dry flies on their back, no?
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2007
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Turned down eyes on a split wing double, which is what we traditionally use for half-pounder steelhead on the Rogue, work a bit like the front edge of a "Hot Shot" / Flatfish / Quick Fish lure dragging the fly to a fairly consitent depth underwater which just happens to be the fish's favorite biting depth. This whole new-fangled bead-head shyte .. might as well be fishing worms.  Turned-up eyes work better for flies you want to skate. We never did that, it's another new-fangled thingy brought from some other river. Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,773 |
Turned-up eyes work better for flies you want to skate. We never did that, it's another new-fangled thingy brought from some other river. Yes. I have some 100+ year old 2.0 salmon irons from Scotland that are up eye. One will have to add some serious flotation to his patterns to get those to skate.
1Minute
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619 |
That's possibly true, SD. By the same reasoning, they would tend to flip dry flies on their back, no? Not really... the eye would have to weigh more than the whole curve of the hook and be farther away from the hackle.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,209
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,209 |
Can't have it both ways, Sitka. A turned eye causes a nymph to ride hook up, but it helps a dry to ride hook down? I think the effect of both is minimal if it's there at all. But a turned eye DOES change the angle of pull from the line. Instead of pulling straight down the hook shank, you are applying a small bit of leverage.
But it's all pretty picky. Fish don't care. They can reject anything I throw.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,209
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,209 |
Just as a followup, I've been mulling this over and had a thought about a knot.
With a turned-down eye, I passed the leader through the eye, took it up and over the wrapped head, then back through the eye. Then tied a uni knot and snugged the knot back up until it jammed in the eye. The result is a nice straight line to fly alignment, an almost invisible knot that doesn't chafe on itself. Kind of a modern Turle knot, if you will.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 23,319 |
Clinch knot for everything except streamers where I use a nonslip loop. Me too! This.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 24,055
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 24,055 |
Just as a followup, I've been mulling this over and had a thought about a knot.
With a turned-down eye, I passed the leader through the eye, took it up and over the wrapped head, then back through the eye. Then tied a uni knot and snugged the knot back up until it jammed in the eye. The result is a nice straight line to fly alignment, an almost invisible knot that doesn't chafe on itself. Kind of a modern Turle knot, if you will. For dries turle. Nymphs , streamers poppers non slip mono
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619 |
Can't have it both ways, Sitka. A turned eye causes a nymph to ride hook up, but it helps a dry to ride hook down? I think the effect of both is minimal if it's there at all. But a turned eye DOES change the angle of pull from the line. Instead of pulling straight down the hook shank, you are applying a small bit of leverage.
But it's all pretty picky. Fish don't care. They can reject anything I throw. Let's lay it out so we both understand what we are saying... Dry flies are tied on lighter hooks and the up eye dominates. If the eye weighs more than the whole hook bend it could offset things, but the final drift to the surface should be curve down, eye up. Nymphs tend to be tied on down eye, heavy hooks. The direction of pull on the eye puts the shank down, point up. Now, I need to go to the posts and see what I actually said! 
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619 |
That's possibly true, SD. By the same reasoning, they would tend to flip dry flies on their back, no? Got your point... but up eyes are far more common on dries.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619 |
BTW, just managed a 2-fish silver limit this morning on just 2 casts. Was concerned about getting the motor started for the return trip as the battery had been a little low so I left it idling while I fished. Sneaky peek showed a nice school. First cast took less then a strip for the take. Landed the fish and took care of it before dropping it in the box. Second cast was taken on the first strip. Second fish in the box and the engine was still running so I just took a couple turns in the river and ran back to the launch... on the trailer in less than an hour round trip, single-handed.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742 |
I'd want more value out of all the boat towing work. I make sure I don't catch more than one fish per hour. At least, that's the way it usually turns out...
On subject, I use a nifty tying version of the Swirle knot. Not because of any angle of pull or tested strength or any other legitimate reason. It's just so easy. No poking ends in things, no counting twists. It's just so easy. And there's no way I could describe the technique.
Campfire Pistolero x2
Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else. -Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,773 |
Sitka:
I hate those days. Once had nine days put aside for deer season. Tagged out at 06:45 opening day and it was hanging by 07:30. Had no buddies at the time I could spend the rest of the season with.
Also limited in about 5 minutes on silvers once while on a party boat. Had to quit until the captain wanted to fill a couple empty tags in the last 15 minutes of the day.
Last edited by 1minute; 07/31/18.
1Minute
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,209 |
I hear ya. A couple years ago, I was throwing a two-jig rig and had my limit of 10 crappie in six consecutive casts. Took longer to unhook them and get them in my cooler than to actually catch them. And had to release one besides!
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: Sep 2013
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,219 |
It might not be high tech, but I've been using a Duncan Loop knot since I was 10 or 11. I'm now 62. It has been all I have ever needed. Is there something wrong with me?
EDIT: Just realized this thread has been asleep for a few months. Oh well...
Last edited by eaglemountainman; 12/20/18.
My heart's in the mountains, my heart is not here.
My heart's in the mountains, chasing the deer.
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,252 |
It might not be high tech, but I've been using a Duncan Loop knot since I was 10 or 11. I'm now 62. It has been all I have ever needed. Is there something wrong with me?
EDIT: Just realized this thread has been asleep for a few months. Oh well... Nah, I use the improved clinch for everything with an eye and I got no complaints. Perfection loop, nail knot and improved clinch do everything I need to do, and I fish 40 plus times a year...
"Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, and more money." -Tom T Hall
Molon Labe
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 6,239
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 6,239 |
Tradition is not always a good thing. The turned-down eyes on hooks and the Turle knot were invented specifically for gut leaders. Gut required a knot that didn't crimp down on itself (like a clinch knot does) but the Turle made the fly ride "cocked" when tied to a straight-eyed hook. So hook makers started turning down the eyes so the Turle knot and gut leader gave a straight pull.
Monofilimant line came along, but hook makers are STILL making fly hooks with turned-down eyes. Even though nobody has used a gut leader in more than seven decades. There's absolutely no need for turned-down fly hooks today, but...
Well, it's tradition. Turned down eyes on beadheads help keep the hook point up... Yes, I'm necroposting, but wanted to add that jig-head hooks are rising in popularity due to this fact.
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 440
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 440 |
Uni-knot or Eugene Bend. If you can double the line through the eye, Fish-n-fool (just a uni with 2 passes through the eye) or a Eugene bend with 2 passes through the eye.
I've use the Davy, Palomar, Trilene, Orvis, Uni, and Eugene Bend. I find the Uni and Eugene easy to tie and sturdy. For larger flies its hard to beat the fish-n-fool. A uni-knot with 5- wraps works well for me.
The expert at anything was once a beginner.
JC
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 482
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 482 |
I learned the strength of a nail knot while flyfishing Kings on the Alagnak. Sometimes I'd fish 20lb Maxima tippet, and when trying to clear a snag the tippet would break. When I'd fish 25lb Maxima, the nail knot would pull off the flyline. Arcane, but perhaps useful.
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