Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 24HC MOA All Day Long Challenge

BSA, you should shoot some NRA mid range or long range matches with the sling and irons those targets were designed for and report back with your resulting classification. Don't know any participants who feel they are laughable.

We don't need no fuggin' rest!

To put things in perspective, there was a mid-range regional shot the first weekend in March at Panola County Gun Club. There were 28 F-Class shooters and 28 Sling shooters.

All firing was at 600 yards.

The F-Class target has 1/2 minute X-Ring and 1 minute 10 ring.
The Sling shooter's target has a 1 minute X-Ring and 2 minute 10 ring.
There are no muzzle brakes or silencers allowed.

F-Open which there are few restrictions and one can shoot from a rest.
FTR-308 or 223 and use of a bipod is allowed

High Scores:
F-Open 1197-82X
FTR 1194-72X


Match rifle has the least restrictions and one must use a sling, no artificial rest.
Palma Rifle must be .308 or .223, I think a 4 1/2 pound trigger, shoot with a sling, and iron sights
Service rifle has the most restrictions basically an AR 15, with up to 4.5 power scope, 4 1/2 pound trigger, and a sling.

Match rifle 1190-68X
Palma rifle 1185-68X
Service Rifle 1185-44X

As you can see from the scores the less restrictions the better the score.
Also target size matches the equipment and rules.
To compare somebody shooting an all out rifle with few restrictions to service rifle with a sling and 4.5 power scope is ridiculous, apples and oranges.

I do believe this, with equal equipment for each discipline it is far easier to become a Master Class shooter in F-Class than in High Power Across the Course.

Damn, that 2 inch ten shot group I fired for fun at 100 yards with the irons using my 7.62 REPR would have me loading my chit back on the truck post haste around those guys.

F Class is too much of a turkey shoot.
So many of the records have been set by noobs, it looks like simply an equipment race. I know, it takes some practice to learn to shoot from a bipod or rest, but not nearly as much as it does to shoot from a sling.
A sling shooter, in the field, can use a rest effectively, but a rest shooter isn't ever going to use a sling effectively.

Yes, I guess the reason I view my AR 10's, 15's and a couple REPR's as the tools they are, farm, house, truck, tractor rifles, I wont/don't shoot any kind of matches with them, that said, 300 yard steel is cake with 556 Eo-Techs with a 36 yard zero, and a few twists on a couple NF scopes will easily get the 7.62's to 500 yard steel, I very much like and take care of them, but, they remain soulless tools.

Oh boy... better save that $1000 bucks..

Very true, I shoot sling few times a year. It’s a real eye opener, i shot a 176 first time out and i was pretty damn happy with that score lol. Also what bsa doesn’t realize service rifle guys are using 4.5x scopes as well.. like some said sling up, find a good 1-4.5 scope and go give it hell.

LMAO. 600 easy to shoot with irons and a sling... Lets see who managed right at MOA in the challenge with irons here..

I dunno but anything with a scope and a rest is sure easier than a sling and irons.(yes I know mini scopes are legal now...)

Whats a nosler range? Never heard of it. We only frequented military and club ranges and the house out the door to 600 over the years. And a fair few years at Camp Perry.

I've made one shot kills on stuff past 600 too. A fair ways past IMHO. And past 500 with irons.

Now betting and talking smack among folks that are supposed to be all on the same side is pretty much BS to me.

The real test is all shooters use the same rifle, thats donated by a non competitor and same ammo. That would be a blast really.

Course what do I know... service rifle shooter from a ways back when it was irons only. 600 is fun. Easy? Not really. If so the top military guys would be cleaning the 600 yard target all day long. I got to the point I could shoot normally a 200 but I had to work hard to get the skill to get there.

but then my classifications were High Master XC and LR and the LR part I'm really proud of. Irons on a service rifle to 1000 ain't easy at all. The NRA 99% club, the 495 club and P100 ain't to bad either.

I've never shot a round with a scope in competition, seems like my wife said that would be too easy but what do I know. I know the targets are smaller but being able to see and read mirage while you are on the gun would be HUGE IMHO. Especially since its usually 22 down range before its over and you have to wait on the targets... though there were some days I'd rather have had a bipod and a scope... lol... but those days taught me a LOT.

The 4.5x helps but not much. I was shooting AR tactical using a 10x scope, I ended up with Sharpshooter designation from the NRA. Then I decided to shoot sling for one of the shoots and talk about big big difference. Almost all the guys have gone to scopes for service rifle in our club. This yr I plan on shooting sling for the fun shoots, I really want to go to camp perry, camp atterbury or to one of the regional shoots like the one held at Ben Avery.

Scopes keep the old guys shooting.

bsa,

I likely only have 2 rifles that would meet or exceed the sub capabilities many of us once thought was true for every rig we owned with a 3 shot group being expanded to 10 or more.

A Scott Weichel build 7wsm and a Ryan Pierce build in 6.5x47 Lap.

Everything else, custom build, or an old factory rifle I own is a 1 to 2 MOA producer.

I’m quite happy with any rifle that can hold 10 at the above, being I’m typically not sinking anymore than 3 rounds into an elk at good distances...If I’m going past 1 round, it’s to ensure I’ve firmly anchored him to the dirt.

😎

Thats fair enough my friend. With this also being a tactical rifle forum, there should be a focus on precision built and special purpose rifles here. I know it has been said that this isn't the hunting rifle forums and we aren't really talking about hunting rifle accuracy here. We are talking about rifles that are built to shoot moa or better 10 shot groups (on average) here. Now, I've taken it one step further and have submitted almost all of my rifles here in this thread, even my lightweight hunting rifles. Its not to brag, but to show that its possible for even hunting type rifles to compete in this challenge. None of my rifles are extremely heavy pigs, well except for some of my AR's. I think the heaviest rifles I have entered weigh in the neighborhood of 10.5 pounds. Those NF scopes are heavy... Although, 2 of my lightest hunting rifles shot very well. They are very consistent shooters. So much in fact that I'll pull them out at our local centerfire matches, just to f with the guys....:


I shot that with a skinny barreled steven's 200. It shoots this event like this:


I pull these rifles out and show them because I like to prove that a good hunting weight rifle will shoot, if it is built right. I do my own glass bedding and trigger work, also work up my loads. I'm not that particular/anal when it comes to working up loads and messing with brass. If I was a highly competitive shooter, it would be different. As it is, I use plain ol RCBS fl sizing dies that you can buy at walmart. Nothing special. I also don't weight sort my brass, but I do make sure my dies are set up for precision. Meaning they produce extremely straight ammo... There's fun in this shoot/challenge. To me it's about trying to make every rifle I own shoot MOA or less. Every once in a while I see a FNG post something about having a "sub 1/2 moa rifle when they do their part" and I invite them to join in on the fun. After all, this shoot is supposed to be all in fun anyway. Its about shooting. The more you shoot, the better you get. And just for the record, I don't post all of my targets. Here's one from yesterday:

I was disappointed in how me and my rifle fell apart on the second group. This CTR is almost at the exact same round count (300) as the second one I bought that did not shoot well when I got it. A simple glass bedding job improved that rifle's accuracy big time. Here's how my second CTR shot when I got it:

The culprit with a lot of Tikka rifles is the fd up non integral recoil lug system they have:


The action of my second CTR actually wobbled around in the stock when I got it. The rifle was funny, as it was great for the first 3 shots, then it would start stringing them. It was no bueno!! However, after glass bedding it, it shoots like this now:

This is the point I try to get across, but a lot of times it falls on deaf ears... Guys that have bought rifles from me understand what I'm talking about... To shoot this challenge you need a rifle that is up to the task. One that is solid and has a good foundation such as proper bedding, trigger, scope and load. I also believe you need that in a good hunting rifle as well. Whether its steel, paper or critter, you need to make every shot count..

About two weeks ago Mr. Edgard, who I believe you know from the old days, and I were discussing the use of scopes in XTC matches.

We agreed that in general it has become easier to shoot better scores, however it has not made it easier to win. The top shooters are top shooters with or without a scope. There is still way more Indian than arrow in XTC.

He did say one of his proudest accomplishments was making high master with iron sights. I have a lot of respect for guys like you and him that are old school HM service rifle shooters.

No way I could even be competitive shooting irons out 600yds. My eyes suck wear glasses, already have bifocals at 44. Yes it sucks lol, scopes like I said do help for service rifle.

L-train now doubt you can tune a factory rifle, point I’m trying to make not everyone is like you/us we are tinkerers. I seen it first hand at big shooting ranges guys show up with a $299 special 2-3 different boxes of ammo shoot what they think is a group, call it day. While we would be packing up trying to figure out why the rifle shot like chit. For the most part that’s a lot of guys here.

Glenn. I still see the emails from the gun club. Really great guy! Good shooter. I consider him a good friend.

Scopes do help. They up the scores no doubt at all. But like you and Glenn note, its still the same guys winning. IIRC some rambling when they went from 5V target to decimal that we have today, I think those are correct terms, it was because guns and ammo were getting more accurate. Somewhat the same as the scope deal. But the same folks were winning.

Its like us, didn't take very long to realize the M14 was going to be a dinosaur as the AR came around and bullet tech came way around and we swapped I think around 94-96 or so... It was a smart move as scores kept going up.

Truth be told, I think you could with irons. Though IMHO it takes more work. I've had to have correction of some kind since about 15-16 years old. Stayed tight to local optometrist and figured some things out. You have to be able to take the test lenses to the range with you. Your normal RX isn't your shooting typically. You need the right size aperture on the right day. And TINT... made a HUGE difference... Carolyn and I kept light orange, light green and clear on hand at all times. You had to see the front sight sure. But smoke that and make a pencil mark on it so you know you are not fading... but you have to have target contrast. And different light and ranges would make us use different holds. In fact I used different holds at 200 than the rest of the course typically. But on given days it might be way off the normal, just so you could see contrast. Without that you had no prayer typically.

Irons just take a lot of work. But JJ Conway shot irons( match rifle irons though, IE ap front also not post and all the adjustable ones) well into his 70s and could hand me my ass quite regularly.

Rost495 is exactly right. I re- started irons shooting with match irons at 55, this time in the Palma venue and was able to make High Master LR with the .308 and 155s 2 years after my 1st 1000 yard shot. Not being intimidated and experimenting to find what works for you and your eyes will get it done.
I am fortunate enough to shoot with some of the country's best LR shooters here in Phoenix which is a huge help. I have pretty poor uncorrected vision, floaters etc. , but a good optometrist.
Give a try, it's a lot of fun.

PS: trifocals were suggested for me in my 40s.

I can still shoot aperture sights ok, however that damn little post with the short sight radius on an AR 15 is tough for me.