Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Nope...don't need no handgun for bear defense...

...until you do....

https://www.alloutdoor.com/2018/09/...09-15&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

So the bear spray was deployed.

They found bear spray on one bear. They found a canister at the scene. The safety was off. I think I read it was mangled. So, was it used on the bear, or did the bear find it and chew on it?

Hope he's over that "spring set" chit.

The article says Bridger is “thinking about heavier, deeper-penetrating bullets in 10mm cartridges designed for bear defense, to carry in his GLOCK.”

I’d say that’s not a bad idea… although a revolver chambered for a more powerful round might be a better one.

ah, no sh*t.

IMHO. Big bore revolvers are a better choice for bear defense. His Glock did not return to battery. The 10mm worked in the end but only by a miracle.

A rare occurrence.

Phil Shoemaker killed a bear with one 9mm round.

I'm no Phil Shoemaker, I might need all 16 of my 230 grain hard cast 10mm rounds to convince a bear to die.

This is an odd story for several reasons. It definitely adds to the absurdity of the idea that “You only get one shot, at most, at a charging bear.”

And this is more about the Indian than the Arrow.

He shot hollow-point 10mm load at a bear’s "body” without shooting 10mm monolithic rounds at the bear’s head at close range because he cared more about a dog that might possibly have been in the way than his “family members following” along (“He screamed at Janelle to stay away.”).

The guy was videoing a threatened bear. Dumb.

“Bridger elected not to aim for the head. He didn’t want to hit one of his dogs. He triggered two or three shots aimed at the bear’s body.” Dumb.

“Bridger decided to retreat. He turned and hopped to the next boulder, then the next. ... In his fast mind-state, he realized this was bad.” He should have kept putting bullets into the animal, especially with loved ones nearby.

He probably brought the wrong JHP bullets; didn’t load his magazine; put dog life above human life, including “Janelle”; and didn’t keep shooting, but “decided to retreat” when he first hit the bear.

I would never place a self defense shot into anything other than the best place I could; would not stop firing if I had a 16-round 10mm gun; would not disengage and retreat with loved ones nearby; and would not use JHP bullets in bear territory.

He actually hit it 7 times, so I'm assuming that there was more than one round involved.

We are the best arm chair quarterbacks in the world! Looking at it all Shrapnels 357 is sure appealing from a weight, capacity, penetration standpoint loaded properly.

I'm sticking with my Glock 40, long slide 10mm and Federal Trophy Bonded 180 grain SP. Of course we don't have any grizzly bears in Florida, but what the hey,

Very sobering....

Don't disagree, but I also don’t think penetration with the right 10mm round is much of an issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhmxYs23MHs

Sounds like he did everything well enough to live another day. If you've never been around dog nuts they are a different lot. They don't think anything of bear or cat encounters and it's very common for them to try and get everything on film.

Biggest take away I have from this story is dumb schit [bleep] that wouldn't know a spring from a dilddo convincing people to download their mags.

Or how about a Redhawk 8 shot 357 mag.?

The client threw the pistol towards the guide and ran away?

My son just got back form his annual one week bow hunt for elk in the southwest part of the state. He said they saw 7 different grizzly bears. All were within 60 to 100 yds and at least 4 (a sow and 3 two yr old cubs) were responding to elk calls. He said the cubs were as big as black bears. None of the bears showed any fear of humans.

FWIW,

Paul

I'm still looking for the magazine I read that in. What is the source of your information? From Mr. Shoemaker?

There are three different bear/handgun stories being tossed around in this thread. The New Mexico black bear, the Wyoming grizzly and Mr. Shoemakers Alaskan brown bear.

The original thread was about the New Mexico black bear and the guys Glock 10mm. That guy either needs to educate himself about semi auto pistols and appropriate loads or start packing a sixgun. Load the magazine full, spring set from a fully loaded magazine isn't a real thing. Choose appropriate loads for heavy game. Don't jam a semi auto against whatever you are trying to shoot. Shoot to kill the thing that is trying to kill you, dogs be damned.

Here's a Link https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...men-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

Yep. Some of those hound guys do stuff like this on the reg. They will do about anything to protect their dogs, including getting chomped.

Lucky guy. Really lucky. What a story.

Thanks. Once again, I stand corrected.

I worked off-duty security at a couple of dog shows. I just thought I knew what dog show contestant's owners were like. I was wrong. I have never seen such, IMHO, a waste of effort and time in a group of like-minded people. I suppose they would consider some of my hobbies as a waste of time. However, I'm fairly certain than hairspray and blowdryers were developed with grooming human hair as their primary function.


There were actually some LEOs I knew who kept their magazines downloaded by 1 or even 2 rounds. They insisted it saved spring strength and made their magazines function better. I always told them the gun manufacturers spent millions of dollars on R&D, and if they found downloading the mags worked better, the mags would come with less capacity but with the same spring. They'd look at me like I didn't have a clue in the world about the function of semiautomatic handguns and rifles. It's truly amazing what foolishness some people can convince themselves of partaking in.

All magazines or just the reloads?
Some fully loaded mags are hard to seat with the slide in battery.

I look at it from the standpoint that nothing is stopping some yellowstone grizzly from heading my way. If one crosses the mountains, traverses the plains, swims the Mississippi, and shows up here I wanna be ready...

with the buffalo bore 200's the 10 looks to be about the same as the 357 magnum loaded with 180 grain FN at 1400fps. I don't know if you would get 1400 out of Shrapnels 3 inch 7 shot gun but give or take Underwood ammo for the 10 and Buffalo for the 357

All magazines.

Which pistols have the issue you described (difficulty inserting a full mag with the slide in battery)? That covers a type of reload when actually using the semi-auto in self-defense...specifically a combat reload. In an extended gun fight, you can make sure your pistol is fully charged by releasing the partially full magazine (if and when you have time & cover), inserting it in your belt, then inserting a full magazine into the pistol that has a round in the chamber.

Many double stacks are more difficult if fully loaded.
Glock for sure. Not a huge deal, but it is easy to see a problem if one is jacked up and distracted.

Just looking for a reason to download.

I fully load mags, but I don't mess with a single for the chamber.
I have glock mags that have been loaded for 21 years.
They only get a break to be shot empty once in a while, then reloaded.
They all work fine

Thanks Bob, That is a great link. Lots of bear attacks in the news this last week.

i cast and make quite a few different bullets, and brinell ratings. but i ordered some of these today
https://www.underwoodammo.com/products/10mm-auto-220-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose?variant=7865916555321

https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...ong-nose-gas-check?variant=7865932644409

they kind of impressed me.
that 41mag in particular with over 1000ft lbs of muzzle energy, and 1350fps is quite a bit of handful.

I have carried on duty, for 15 years, a Para Ordnance P-14 (for 9 years) and a Glock 20 (for 6 years). I never experienced any difficulty seating a full magazine on a weapon that had the slide in battery...never.

I try not to leave my mags loaded for more than a month. If nothing else, I'll unload it at home, then reload it and put it where I had it. I don't have an abundance of fully loaded mags at home, but they are all Glock 20/40 mags. They all have 15 in the mag. If I strip one off to go in the barrel, I drop the mag and top it off. The capacity of a Glock 20 is 16 rounds. Why anyone would carry it with less, absent an asinine 10-round capacity limit, is a mystery to me.

.
Magnumdood........see the movie “Best in Show”
And the spring thing.....Bob Bell, the gun writer, swapped a Luger for a 1911 in WW2......always used one mag, home gun. After more than 50 years of the second magazine being loaded he tried it. Worked as it should. 50+ years in a fully loaded condition. Zero problems.

Buddy just called me from Idaho and said he and a friend were archery hunting and caught movement. At first they thought it was an elk, then realized bear. It was downwind and he said when it hit their scent it turned and ran full speed straight at them to about 50 yards then disappeared due to terrain. No handguns, no bear spray.

They didn't know where it was going to pop out for a few tense moments when they spotted it going away. Gave him a new appreciation for the seriousness of bear encounters because of how that could have worked out, two guys with bows and a grizzly coming to them knowing they're there. Spooked him a little.

Glad the man made it out alive. To me it sounds like a poor ammo choice for "woods carry". He would be much better served with a hard cast 200-220 grain load or even a 200 grain full metal jacket. Penetration is the key. If your worried about a two legged animal attack, any of the loads that I suggested will punch .40 holes through a crazy methhead. When carrying my Glock 20 in the big Timber of southern Ohio, it's loaded with Double Tap 220 grain HCFN. More for big stray dogs and the odd wild boar, but there are a few black bears there and it's better to be safe than sorry. Also, I feel totally safe carrying my Glock 27 compact .40 S&W with a Lone Wolf barrel loaded with Buffalo Bore or Double Tap 200 grain hard cast. Switch barrels back and load her up with 180 grain Federal HST for the ride home.

Ron

well i am another ron.
i can cast 200gr 10mm, i think, if i can find the molds in the shed.
but i bought some of those underwoods and they look like nice bullets.
i also bought some 41magnum 265 grain flat nose to do 1350fps. i think they would work.
i have a lew horton 41 mag with a 3inch barrel, wondering what that's gonna be like.

Not to be contrarian, however it’s pretty standard to download pistol mags on the belt/pocket by 1 round where I work. Have seen numerous times under stress, compromised positions, physical fatigue, or when wounded dudes not seat a fully loaded double stack pistol mag with the slide closed. Not everyone does it, and if a person doesn’t see the need after rigorous and extremely stressful training, then they rock on.

I don’t do it with 1911’s, not with low capacity pistol mags, but with G19/17’s, P320’s, etc. I do. 16 rounds instead of 17 rounds, with more consistent seating has shown to be a fair trade off for us.




Having said all that, my spare mags hold 24 rounds....

...and another...humans must just be getting lucky....

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/2...s-cub-in-self-defense-officials-say.html

That is a valid concern and I do that with some of my autos as well as my AR's.

But spring set is what was referred to in the article and that's just nonsense in my opinion.

Spring-set is just a rumor.... I used to teach with a retired mechanical engineer who had an article on springs... After the initial compression that then sets the springs LOA for the rest of its life, unless the spring rusts or is physically damaged it will work. What wears out a spring is "work"...as in compression...decompression...over and over again.

I have seen several articles where the author had found a fully loaded magazines from WWII in Lugers and 1911s and after 30+ years of compression the magazine fed just fine...

As to seating a fully loaded magazine with the slide down or bolt forward...depends on the magazine. AR metal magazines when loaded to capacity, as in 30 rounds in a 30 rounder, have zero compression left. When one tries to insert the magazine with the bolt forward many times the mag will pop out when the next shot is fired because the magazine catch didn't fully engage the notch in the magazine. I saw this at least once a course/shoot when someone would do a tactical reload with a full mag. Plastic mags don't have that problem...

Same thing on pistol magazines. The 1911 .38 Super was designed with a 9 round magazine. With 9 rounds in the mag one can push down on the top round and it will go a little deeper into the magazine body... Same thing happens when the magazine is inserted into the gun. The top round contacts the bottom of the slide and is compressed into the magazine body. When the shot is fired and the slide goes back as the bottom of the slide clears the round, the round then comes up to the top of the feed lips and is picked up by the bottom of the breechface, stripped off the magazine and into the chamber.

When I have tried the 10 round conversions there is ZERO compression left in the magazine. When the magazine is inserted with the slide forward there is no compression so the magazine catch doesn't fully line up with the cut in the magazine... Fire the next round and the slide cycles and then you get a "click"...because the magazine dropped down slightly but didn't drop out of the gun because it is being held in place by the magazine catch.

If you slam the magazine in to get it to seat then you are putting undue pressure on the frame rails...

Bob

I've had Magpuls exhibit the same problem.

Just saw this followup....

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/11/wy...LnyE4jWkMtLv1YYANLrXhYs-Vs#axzz5XbcAYX13

...once again proves that if one doesn't feel comfortable with a round in the chamber...carry a revolver.

Bob

Or carry a DA/SA auto. I ditched my Glock 10mm for an H&K USP 45 shooting .45 Super in large part because of the greater weight and travel of the H&K's trigger system over the Glock.

Thank you for posting the link to followup information. The initial story in the media didn't make sense.
By the way, my assumption was that the second bear was the sow's 2 year old cub, but the follow-up doesn't make that clear.
There was another average size sow a few years back that learned how eat people and she was training her yearling cubs. They trapped and killed her, but they sent the cubs to zoos.

Hope they hadn't learned the lesson yet.

One of the reasons so many people in Alaska carry a handgun for bear: https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

Gotta be a Millenial hunting guide to think...."take out my phone"

So do you want 6 shots..........or a Mag full of good 10s? Tis the question in bear country?

Lucky guy!

Since one is likely to only get off a couple of shots anyway...revolver... That and if you end up in a hand to paw knock-down-drag-out fight a semi can fail to cycle...

I want my 475 or one of my 500’s.

The lower 48 grizzly range in weight from 200-400lbs females and 400-600lbs males. So these are not any where near the size of coastal brown bears or Alaskan/Canadian inland grizzlies. This is not to imply they are not extremely dangerous. The sow in the above article was 250 lbs according to the article.

Several years ago, a big boar was hit by a truck and killed near Lincoln MT -- it was estimated to weigh in the neighborhood of 800 lbs -- an extreme outlier. That bear was known to the locals for years.

Anyway, my point is that these lower 48 bears are not anywhere near as big as their northern counterparts and probably can be successfully defended against with less firepower (although I'd want as much as possible).

FWIW,

Paul

There are some exceptions, grizzly in the 900 pound range do exist in MT, not common but they are there.

Was that bear actually put on a scale?

Otherwise, we're back to the old saw that the heaviest bears are found farthest from a scale.

Golden Bison in 45-70!

Don't know, but 830 sounds like more than an estimate.

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/headlines/nr_2693.html

http://www.pbase.com/crichter/lincoln_montana_grizzley

There have been a few in the last several years that were weighed I believe that were around 900. Many of these seem to come in the area of the Rocky Mountain Front (east slope of the Rockies in northern Montana).

A 375 H&H would be good.