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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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I have only butt-shot one elk, a raghorn bull that had been previously shot through the bottom of the heart with a 200-grain Nosler Partition from a .300 Weatherby Magnum. The bull was obviously hard-hit, and of course would have died pretty soon, but if it had been shot through the top of the heart wouldn't have been still standing up, facing away. A second 200 Partition that clipped part of the pelvis while traveling through was what's often called the "wazoo" dropped the bull instantly. That bullet didn't exit. and I traced its path through the guts and diaphragm into the chest, but couldn't find it.
Yeah, I know Partitions aren't supposed to penetrate as deeply as many newer bullets, but I've shot more elk with the .30-caliber 200 Partition than any other bullet, from various .30 caliber cartridges from the .30-06 up, including three .300 magnums, often with angling shots. That's the only one that's stayed inside an elk, which indicates it might be reasonably adequate, even from the wimpy old .30-06. I also took my biggest bull, both in antler and body, with the .30-06 and the 180-grain Trophy Bonded Tip, at 250 yards as it stood angling away across a small canyon. It walked slowly for maybe 20 feet before stopping broadside, locked up. Another shot dropped it right there.
My wife and I have also used various sub-.30 cartridges on elk, including the dreaded .270 Winchester, sometimes with Partitions but also with other bullets. One of the .270 elk was a cow Eileen shot through the lungs with a 150 Partition, whereupon it started to stagger downhill away from her--and we needed to haul the elk uphill a few hundred yards over a ridge, before heading downhill a couple miles downhill to the pickup. So she shot it again in the tailbone, which dropped it right there. She has shot most her other elk, and a bull Shiras moose, with the .270, using either 150 Partitions or 140 TSX's. They all went down within at most a few feet.
The moose was as large as any bull elk I've seen on the ground. It stood quartering away to the left, and took a step and a half before folding up. The 150 Partition entered the left ribs and stopped under the hide of the right shoulder.
The smallest cartridge and bullet Eileen has used on elk is the .257 Roberts with a 100-grain Barnes TTSX, which dropped an average-size cow right there. The elk was standing angling slightly uphill on a slope, quartering away to the right, and the bullet went through both lungs, clipping the very bottom of the spine, before ending up under the hide of the left shoulder. She dropped the biggest cow either of us have taken last year with a 130-grain TTSX loaded to about 2900 fps from her .308. The cow was quartering toward us at around 250 yards, and staggered 20-25 yards before flopping, obviously hard-hit. The bullet broken the near shoulder just above the joint, ending up under the hide on the opposite side of the ribcage, minus all its petals. Many hunters think X-Bullets won't penetrate or kill well when they lose petals, but the cow didn't get the memo.
A good friend, a retired outfitter, has been using the .22-250 for around a decade now with yearly success. But these days he only shoots cows and raghorns, usually in herds, and likes the .22-250 because bullets won't exit, even on perfectly broadside rib shots, and wound another elk on the far side. Dunno what bullet he uses, because he's never mentioned it.
Damned if I know what's minimum for elk.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Shot a bedded cow through the ribs @~225yds w/257Wb-100TSX. She wasn't going anywhere but did struggle to her feet, a 2nd round through the shoulders anchored her before she was able to actually take a step. It it wasn't the lightning quick death I've experienced with similar placement on deer. Haven't carried that combo for elk since.
270Win/140TSX is a very adequate elk combo. I've witnessed 4 elk killed w/that combo from ~100-425yds. Elk shot through the lungs die in 5-10sec and sure haven'f gone far in that time. Hunting buddy shoots 150 TTSX through 280AI and results are indistinguishable IMO/IME.
300Win/200part. I've killed 2 bulls with this combo, 1st one took the 1st hit just a bit low as I got the front leg but didn't get into the chest. Gong-show from there. 1st hit was ~400yds, last was 500. I shot 7 times total, hitting the elk 4 times. Broadside one facing each direction shots going through the lungs and straight on, missing thrice as well. My 1st elk, I was kinda wound up. 2nd elk w/the 200part I got right through the neck/shoulder junction @ 300yds and he dropped at the shot. Hunting partner used to use 338Win/210part to similar effect.
300Win/200 TSX, I've killed 8 elk w/this combo and witnessed 2 others. Well placed shots result in very authoritative and dramatically quick kills. Less that ideal shots have still slowed elk down enough (significantly) that I've been able to get a better killing shot in fairly quickly and not lose them. Cows and bulls from 125-500yds. Hunting partner shoots 210TTSX/338Win and results are the same.
As I survey my very limited experience (let's face it, there are folks who see 20elk killed in a week) the only thing I can really say for certain is that proper placement is better than a bigger case/bullet combo. I'm confident that I could kill elk with pretty much any Center-fire I own, however, I'm not intentionally going elk hunting with anything less than my 270Win and a good bullet.
I can walk on water.......................but I do stagger a bit on alcohol.
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Joined: Mar 2016
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Helped a buddy butcher a cow this year. He sliced into the hind quarter and a mushroomed. 243 boat tail slug fell out. There was no sign of a wound on the hide or infection in the meat, it had been there a year or two. I'm sure that guy tells everyone a .243 isn't big enough for elk. I'd shoot em with my 22.250 if they'd let me.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,263 |
Damned if I know what's minimum for elk.
Isn’t that the truth...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2005
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Oh yes, so exciting. Another elk cartridge and rifle thread. Why don't we just call this the elk rifle room instead of elk hunting? Who was it that said "shooting an elk is the easy part, finding it is the hard part?" Some redneck named Floyd R. Turbo IIRC. Actually drawing a decent tag is the most difficult part of elk hunting. Most of my elk have been killed with a bow and arrow. My half dozen or so rifle kills have been with a 30-06 and 180gr bullets of some sort. Most elk were shot and walked off like nothing happened then tipped over dead within 40-50 yards. If I am so lucky as to draw an elk tag this season I will be toting my new Kimber Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor. Two main reasons, first is that it weighs almost 3# less than my 30-06 and second is I want to. I see no reason it will not do the job within 1/4 mile.
Last edited by centershot; 12/24/18.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,263 |
Actually drawing a decent tag is the most difficult part of elk hunting. IMO, finding a decent bull is the most difficult part of elk hunting. I’ve had multiple bulls in my sights the least two years, but havent pulled the trigger since 2016...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I have only butt-shot one elk, a raghorn bull that had been previously shot through the bottom of the heart with a 200-grain Nosler Partition from a .300 Weatherby Magnum. The bull was obviously hard-hit, and of course would have died pretty soon, but if it had been shot through the top of the heart wouldn't have been still standing up, facing away. A second 200 Partition that clipped part of the pelvis while traveling through was what's often called the "wazoo" dropped the bull instantly. That bullet didn't exit. and I traced its path through the guts and diaphragm into the chest, but couldn't find it.
Yeah, I know Partitions aren't supposed to penetrate as deeply as many newer bullets, but I've shot more elk with the .30-caliber 200 Partition than any other bullet, from various .30 caliber cartridges from the .30-06 up, including three .300 magnums, often with angling shots. That's the only one that's stayed inside an elk, which indicates it might be reasonably adequate, even from the wimpy old .30-06. I also took my biggest bull, both in antler and body, with the .30-06 and the 180-grain Trophy Bonded Tip, at 250 yards as it stood angling away across a small canyon. It walked slowly for maybe 20 feet before stopping broadside, locked up. Another shot dropped it right there.
My wife and I have also used various sub-.30 cartridges on elk, including the dreaded .270 Winchester, sometimes with Partitions but also with other bullets. One of the .270 elk was a cow Eileen shot through the lungs with a 150 Partition, whereupon it started to stagger downhill away from her--and we needed to haul the elk uphill a few hundred yards over a ridge, before heading downhill a couple miles downhill to the pickup. So she shot it again in the tailbone, which dropped it right there. She has shot most her other elk, and a bull Shiras moose, with the .270, using either 150 Partitions or 140 TSX's. They all went down within at most a few feet.
The moose was as large as any bull elk I've seen on the ground. It stood quartering away to the left, and took a step and a half before folding up. The 150 Partition entered the left ribs and stopped under the hide of the right shoulder.
The smallest cartridge and bullet Eileen has used on elk is the .257 Roberts with a 100-grain Barnes TTSX, which dropped an average-size cow right there. The elk was standing angling slightly uphill on a slope, quartering away to the right, and the bullet went through both lungs, clipping the very bottom of the spine, before ending up under the hide of the left shoulder. She dropped the biggest cow either of us have taken last year with a 130-grain TTSX loaded to about 2900 fps from her .308. The cow was quartering toward us at around 250 yards, and staggered 20-25 yards before flopping, obviously hard-hit. The bullet broken the near shoulder just above the joint, ending up under the hide on the opposite side of the ribcage, minus all its petals. Many hunters think X-Bullets won't penetrate or kill well when they lose petals, but the cow didn't get the memo.
A good friend, a retired outfitter, has been using the .22-250 for around a decade now with yearly success. But these days he only shoots cows and raghorns, usually in herds, and likes the .22-250 because bullets won't exit, even on perfectly broadside rib shots, and wound another elk on the far side. Dunno what bullet he uses, because he's never mentioned it.
Damned if I know what's minimum for elk.
One question John, is the 270 Win as good of an elk round as the 6.5 Creedmoor?
The first great thing is to find yourself and for that you need solitude and contemplation. I can tell you deliverance will not come from the rushing noisy centers of civilization. It will come from the lonely places. Fridtjof Nansen
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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Actually drawing a decent tag is the most difficult part of elk hunting. IMO, finding a decent bull is the most difficult part of elk hunting. I’ve had multiple bulls in my sights the least two years, but havent pulled the trigger since 2016... Damn Brad. How's that Mcdonalds tasting? Just kidding with you. It takes great restraint to not pull the trigger. I made up my mind I'm not going to shoot another damn spike. Of course I had my scope crosshairs on a little spike this year and decided to hold true to what I said, and walked away with 100% gratification.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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Damned if I know what's minimum for elk.
Isn’t that the truth... I've heard 22wmr... If that is any help.. Heard that from some oldtimers in Washington state..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 27,692
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 27,692 |
While not totally definitive, I would surmise that the minimum elk cartridge would be whatever rifle/ cartridge combination you have in hand when said elk is encountered and must be shot.
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers
�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,388
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,388 |
One question John, is the 270 Win as good of an elk round as the 6.5 Creedmoor?
The Creedmoor has pixie dust. Read it here and elsewhere on the internet.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Campfire Regular
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I have only butt-shot one elk, a raghorn bull that had been previously shot through the bottom of the heart with a 200-grain Nosler Partition from a .300 Weatherby Magnum. The bull was obviously hard-hit, and of course would have died pretty soon, but if it had been shot through the top of the heart wouldn't have been still standing up, facing away. A second 200 Partition that clipped part of the pelvis while traveling through was what's often called the "wazoo" dropped the bull instantly. That bullet didn't exit. and I traced its path through the guts and diaphragm into the chest, but couldn't find it.
Yeah, I know Partitions aren't supposed to penetrate as deeply as many newer bullets, but I've shot more elk with the .30-caliber 200 Partition than any other bullet, from various .30 caliber cartridges from the .30-06 up, including three .300 magnums, often with angling shots. That's the only one that's stayed inside an elk, which indicates it might be reasonably adequate, even from the wimpy old .30-06. I also took my biggest bull, both in antler and body, with the .30-06 and the 180-grain Trophy Bonded Tip, at 250 yards as it stood angling away across a small canyon. It walked slowly for maybe 20 feet before stopping broadside, locked up. Another shot dropped it right there.
My wife and I have also used various sub-.30 cartridges on elk, including the dreaded .270 Winchester, sometimes with Partitions but also with other bullets. One of the .270 elk was a cow Eileen shot through the lungs with a 150 Partition, whereupon it started to stagger downhill away from her--and we needed to haul the elk uphill a few hundred yards over a ridge, before heading downhill a couple miles downhill to the pickup. So she shot it again in the tailbone, which dropped it right there. She has shot most her other elk, and a bull Shiras moose, with the .270, using either 150 Partitions or 140 TSX's. They all went down within at most a few feet.
The moose was as large as any bull elk I've seen on the ground. It stood quartering away to the left, and took a step and a half before folding up. The 150 Partition entered the left ribs and stopped under the hide of the right shoulder.
The smallest cartridge and bullet Eileen has used on elk is the .257 Roberts with a 100-grain Barnes TTSX, which dropped an average-size cow right there. The elk was standing angling slightly uphill on a slope, quartering away to the right, and the bullet went through both lungs, clipping the very bottom of the spine, before ending up under the hide of the left shoulder. She dropped the biggest cow either of us have taken last year with a 130-grain TTSX loaded to about 2900 fps from her .308. The cow was quartering toward us at around 250 yards, and staggered 20-25 yards before flopping, obviously hard-hit. The bullet broken the near shoulder just above the joint, ending up under the hide on the opposite side of the ribcage, minus all its petals. Many hunters think X-Bullets won't penetrate or kill well when they lose petals, but the cow didn't get the memo.
A good friend, a retired outfitter, has been using the .22-250 for around a decade now with yearly success. But these days he only shoots cows and raghorns, usually in herds, and likes the .22-250 because bullets won't exit, even on perfectly broadside rib shots, and wound another elk on the far side. Dunno what bullet he uses, because he's never mentioned it.
Damned if I know what's minimum for elk.
One question John, is the 270 Win as good of an elk round as the 6.5 Creedmoor? The loaded question to end all loaded questions. Hee hee. I'm dying to know too.
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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I would say minimum bullet construction is a bigger concern .I have killed Bull Elk and moose with a well constructed bullet with no issues from a 25/06, I know others who have used smaller chamberings.
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,189
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,189 |
I can't say exactly why, but I am still drawn to these "cartridge, bullet, fpe" threads. So I read the whole thing (up early, didn't want to wake up the wife or kids, so just reading with coffee).
Since I spend nearly half my time in rural PA, and the other half in MT, I find some limitations in the question asked in the OP. Which elk, exactly? Hunting where, and in what kind of terrain? These things matter when thinking about which cartridge would be considered "minimum."
The same thing comes up with deer. I see lots of deer in rural PA, but were I to chase one with a rifle, my shots would likely be closer than 100yds. If I hunted were a mature buck ran 150lb, and rarely any bigger, that would also matter.
So the typical shot distance on elk will be vastly different if I am hunting heavy timber as opposed to hunting open canyons in a 20-year-old burn. If I am carrying a cow or spike tag, there will likely be body-size differences than if I am in a trophy area after brow-tine bulls. These are significant, if I am after a "minimum" cartridge, are they not?
A 30-30 is not considered very powerful, and would be quite ineffective if my shots were likely to stretch to beyond 500 yds, but that same 30-30 would be ideal in heavy timber, where my shots are likely to be less than 100. If long ranges are typical for an area hunted, then flatter-shooting cartridges and sleek bullets are a necessity.
If we are talking about a minimum that covers all bases, that is going to be hard to nail down, as one could simply pass on shots where the gun/cartridge/bullet combo in hand didn't meet the requirements of the immediate shot, as we all have done from time to time.
All that said, I've never packed anything smaller in terms of caliber and "power level" for elk than a 243 with 100gr bullets at 3050 or a 257 with 100gr bullets at 2850. Both of those have worked, but both have seemed very marginal at times, to the point of being seemingly ineffective. The good news is that we are not limited to one shot per game animal. And neck shots are always decisive, if done right. Though I've toyed with the idea of using a 223 with bonded 64 gr bullets for elk, and if I happened to have said combo in hand when an ideal shot arose, I would take that shot (and keep shooting until the elk was down), I don't think I would pack a 223 if elk was the main or the only quarry. And if trophy-class bulls were getting chased, more bullet would be preferred than the 100gr 24 or 25 cal.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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a 223 with bonded 64 gr bullets for elk, and if I happened to have said combo in hand when an ideal shot arose, I would take that shot (and keep shooting until the elk was down 30 round mags?......
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Joined: Jul 2013
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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a 223 with bonded 64 gr bullets for elk, and if I happened to have said combo in hand when an ideal shot arose, I would take that shot (and keep shooting until the elk was down 30 round mags?...... Nah. Neck shots work.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If I draw the etolin elk rifle tag this year, my choices will be:
Kimber MT 7 WSM 162 Amax
Kimber MT 300WSM 155 Scenar
Kimber Montana 6.5 Creedmoor 147 ELDM
Rem Model 7 7 Saum 150 E Tip
Rem 700 243 AI 105 Amax
Good to have choices. Brutal hunt, big bodied elk. Hope I draw.
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Campfire Regular
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theres always been a trade off in the rifles weight,(ease of carrying ) velocity, (flat trajectory , or reach,) its impact power,(weight and diameter of the projectile ) and as a result of the choices made , its recoil. theres plenty of evidence that a small properly placed projectile can produce a lethal wound, theres also a good deal of physics that say a larger mass projectile moving at reasonable velocity , can produce a deeper and larger diameter wound, the trade off is increased recoil. you can,t dispute simple physics, a larger mass at a similar velocity hits a harder blow on impact. (and generally induces more recoil on the shooters shoulder.) and once the projectile from your rifle of choice, can from any reasonable range or angle produce a lethal wound, on the game hunted, and the trajectory over the vast majority of the ranges your likely to be confronted with allows easy shot placement, theres no reason to select something with more velocity or a heavier projectile. the projectile does all the work on impact and the technology, of bullet design, has improved in recent decades https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi your ability to tolerate recoil generally will vary with the rifles stock design, use of a sling and recoil pad, muzzle brake ,and it varies with your position you shoot from, your body size, total experience and training to some extent. having confidence in your choice is a significant factor in your ability to successfully hunt. Ive seen a 257 Roberts drop elk rather quickly at about 150-to-180 yards a couple times, moved less than 30-40 yards Ive seen an elk act like a shot from a 7mm mag was marginal, as it ran over 80 yards with a lung/liver destroyed, yet the next two shot with the same rifle dropped inside a few steps. being a bit pragmatic I watch what other people used and see the results they have gotten. Ive consistently seen good results from a 358 win with a 250 grain bullet and a 340 wby with a 250 grain bullet, Ive seen a 270 win with a 150 grain bullet and a 30/06 with a 200 grain bullet year after year produce one shot kills, it eventually became obvious to me that there was some advantage in the heavier projectiles, the game, well hit in the vitals, was much more likely to drop in a few steps but damn near any rifle in skilled hands would work. Id also point out, to be fair, that in over 50 years of hunting, Ive rarely shot game or seen game shot at ranges exceeding about 250 yards.
Last edited by 340mag; 12/31/18.
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