Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Run-out discussion ? ...

Do you precision accuracy folks check for Run-Out ?

What do you use ?

Does it take having an RCBS CaseMaster type tool to REALLY check it ?

What do you do to correct rounds too far out ?

What causes Run-Out ? Dies ? bad brass ? dies set up wrong ?

Yes.

Sinclair RO gauge and Forster gauge

Yes, or something similar.

I correct my loading process (usually a die problem) and anneal every few firings, generally speaking.

Sizing dies, seater stems, expander mandrels, case neck thickness variation, neck tension variation, etc.

Yes.

Forster gauge.

Since I've switched to Forster dies I have very little run-out.

Jordan ,

[I correct my loading process (usually a die problem) and anneal every few firings, generally speaking.]

Is it an adjustment thing or worse ?
Can you run the round through the die after correction ? or do you have to pull the bullet and start over ? or is that a 600 yard warmer-upper round ?

Mike, great questions. I dont use fancy expensive dies to load ammo with less than .003 TIR. They are simply not needed. Hopefully mathman will be along shortly to explain the proper way to set up your dies for reduced run-out. Concentric ammo tends to help promote greater accuracy. Good luck with it..

Oops, forgot to tell you what I use:


This was shot at 160 yards. 10 shots in the 10 ring after 1 adjustment:



Straight ammo just shoots better...

I use the Sinclair gauge

Depending on the dies, you may have to adjust the position of the expander/decapping stem or seater stem, depending on which stage of the loading process your RO is being introduced, so that it is perfectly centered in the die, or replace the seater stem with a VLD style, if using standard dies like RCBS or Redding FL. Or you may need to uniform and trim the case necks, if neck thickness is your issue. The easiest way I’ve found to load straight ammo is to use Forster BR dies and the Lee NCD with good brass. The advantage of the Forster gauge is that it can measure neck wall uniformity, but it’s a little less user-friendly to measure TIR than the Sinclair gauge.

For already loaded ammo, you can straighten it with Jerry’s TruAngle, pull it and run it through straight dies, or just use it for offhand practice

RCBS Casemaster & a TruTool to straighten. TruTool doesn't get much use these days.

This

after measuring all the steps in my process many i found that the the standard seater dies were the biggest part of run out for me, Redding Competition Seater dies fixed it.

if you want near zero runout and are only neck sizing start with the Lee Collet neck sizers.

i found the Hornady tool very easy to use for measuring both bullet run out and case neck thickness.

don't depend on any of the tools that straighten out bullets, find and fix the problem before you get that far.

+1

Forster benchrest dies will also give amazing results

If you are shooting vld bullets, make sure you have a vld seater stem

I use this tool to check run out. Usually find a bad die, bad sizer, or bad technique used.
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Not lubing the inside of necks using std sizers will usually kink the necks way out of alignment. I use the Lee sizing wax that is white and comes in a tooth paste type of container in conjunction with a Q tip.

Pay attention to the seating pressure that is used in seating bullets, if one seats real hard, cull that piece of brass as it has work hardened and has a death grip on the bullet....usually a flyer.

I anneal every third or forth shot fired. I inside nk. lube with Hornady lube on a twisted pipe stem cleaner. After sizing I check for trim, make sure I have a good inside champfer, then polish the neck opening with 0000 steel wool to rid any burrs. My technique is to then seat the bullet on the case, run up into the die..gently..till I contact the inside of the seating stem...gently tap on the bullet with the press handle to make sure all is in alignment, then finish seating the bullet. This sounds more complicated and time comsuming than it is...but I can feel the bullet being seated smoothly.
Watching some guys seat bullets is like watching a bull in a china shop. MHO....VMMY

Thanks

I like the first sentence/question... Not to stir the pot, but you'd think all of these "precision accuracy guys" posting what they use would be in the top 10 of the "moa all day long" shoot here. Am I wrong? I'd love to see what these precision accuracy guys are putting on paper downrange. I don't want to hear lame excuses either... "The proof is in the pudding", so to speak.. It's fun to read about how you have 27 steps in sizing, and seating. Let's see it on paper in that thread.

So is that back to the original rules, or does it depend on whether you consider a sub 100 dollar POS Caldwell rest OK.

+1 Every round I fire gets checked

Great info. - plan on starting with a Lee Collet die I've had good luck with them .
Going to get a runout gauge still not sure which one , although Keiths looks a little above my pay grade . What's the brandname of that Keith ?

Jordan which of your would you pick if you could only have one ?

Are there any RO Indicators that work with a neck turning/case trimming lathe set-up ?
I need one of those too and like tool that do multiple things .

CGPaul , that's a good sounding procedure you have for seating - I sure keep those tips in mind ...

Probably the Forster, but the Sinclair gets used the most. Just like the versatility of the Forster for some tasks. Having said that, I’ve only really used the two brands. I’m sure others are good also- the Hornady unit looks pretty decent.

I'm ot a "precision accuracy" shooter. But the reason I reload is to be able to shoot accurately at longer distances. One of the best shots I know doesn't shoot groups on paper, just steel out on his range. Runout is one thing I check, all I've ever used is the RCBS gauge and it works fine for my purposes.

I don't correct runout, I just mark the cases with high runout and put them in one end of the box of 50. Usually it's not that many and I'll shoot those when I'm not looking for the best accuracy. I've found that some brass/chamber/die combinations result in very straight ammo with just a garden variety FL die, and some combinations respond best to neck sizing only, I use redding bushing dies for that.

To go after low runout the combination I recommend is a Lee collet die, a body die, and a Forster seater. I base this on cost vs. ease of use and likelihood of success.

I am following this thread with interest. I don't have the tool to check run out but I am looking into getting one. Who makes the red tool shown in the picture? Is it by Accuracy First?

Same here, I bought 6x47 and 6.5x47 Forster dies for the evil twins and have since bought several more sets. Forster dies have resulted in the lowest runout I have found with all other FL dies including Hornady, Lee, RCBS and Redding...Lee Collet dies are the exception.

I had an RCBS gauge but replaced it with a Sinclair, the model posted above would be an upgrade over the Sinclair but I doubt I will change now.

I'm just a novice but I bought the hornady tool and I believe it has helped with less fliers. I check them all and may have to tweak 1 out of 10. I started using orings under my sizing die lock rings also after reading about folks doing that.

I read about the O-Ring and JeffB cutting out plastic washers etc. - I guess that allows the seating die to align itself during the seating of the bullet ?
Looked for that thread but couldn't find it .

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/o-rings-on-dies-may-reduce-run-out/


O-Rings on Dies May Reduce Run-Out
Here’s an inexpensive procedure that can help you load straighter ammo, with slightly better measured concentricity (i.e. less run-out) on the case necks and bullets. Simply use a rubber O-Ring on the underside of the die locking ring. This allows the die to self-align itself (slightly) to the case that is being sized. Without the O-Ring, if the flat surface on the top of your press is not perfectly square with the thread axis, your die can end up slightly off-angle. This happens when the bottom of the locking ring butts up tight against the top of the press. The O-Ring allows the die to float slightly, and that may, in turn, reduce the amount of run-out induced during case sizing.

I could be wrong but I swear its a #17 oring I've been using

Thanks Swifty52 !
There's an Ace right up the road .

Yes #17 O-Ring .

Conversely, what's to say that by having the threads on the die and press mated up makes axis of the die collinear with the case? There are many variables in play, right? Shell holder, threads on the dies, threads on the press, bottom of die being square, reamed out area of die collinear and concentric with die body, etc.

I've used a flat washer to square things up. Another method I've used is to leave the die loose in the press. Once I had established the headspace I wanted (by sizing the fired cases and placing them in a headspace gauge - i.e. the rifle chamber) , I'd run the case into the die about 90% of the way, then lock the ring. This ensures that the case and die are collinear.

MM

I don’t advocate it as a fix all or do all. I just point to the information and they can come to their own conclusions. Have I tried it? Yes. Did it help, not that I could notice. Did it hurt, not that I could notice.
Why?
Picture 1. RCBS on their chuckers use a screw in insert. On both of mine the only contact made by the insert is on the outer corners and threads. There is a rounded bevel above the press threads that it screws into. I put an O-Ring there to compress slightly before the corners touched. Kinda filled that gap between the bevel and insert.



Pic 2. Again very little of the lock ring was actually making contact and not very evenly, so the O-Ring when hand tightened actually fills all irregular areas, adds a little more contact surface plus fills that little chamfer void.

upload image to url

Uh I don't know maybe it doesn't interest them. Maybe they are shooting 500-600-700-1000 yd groups. Just because you like it doesn't mean everyone else wants to do it. But I do agree with you buddy you don't need all that high speed [bleep] to roll great ammunition. Ever since I switched up to, screwing my sizer die decamping stem all the way up, my runout is non existent now.

I certainly check run out, but with good bushing dies (Forster, Redding, Whidden, etc.), sound set up (no expander ball, dies floated, etc.), proper annealing and mandrels to set neck tension, it's become nearly a moot point.

As I said before, that all day challenge is not worth wasting 20 shots on. There is not 1 ounce of fairness or integrity left. It was lost when they changed to allowing pedestal front rests depending on cost, person and whether it was a brand new custom. Started out as bull bags, bipods or sand bag. No pedestal or BR rests. When the rules are changed once, it’s way to easy to show preference and change the rules un-announced midstream again.

I have the Sinclair early style concentricty gauge with the regular V-blocks the Sinclair gauge with the bumps in the V-blocks, and the RCBS Casemaster. I use the Casemaster these days.

Most of my rifles produce low runout PFLR'g with Redding FL dies, some do better with Redding bump dies and Redding Nk dies. I use Forster seater dies. Some of my Forster sizing dies come close to the Reddings in low neck runout, some don't even come close, but in the end all my Redding sizing dies beat the Forster's.

One batch of new WW brass in a 270 stretches a mile when I try PFLR'g and bumping the shoulder back a thou' or so no matter where I set it. I gave up and went to a bump die with the Lee Collet die and it's now producing low neck runout so I stopped there. Haven't shot this load yet so I'll see if it translates into an accurate hunting load.

Sorry to interrupt with a noobie question, but has anyone tried the Hornady version...and does the straightening portion work as desired ?

I have found it to work on smaller cartridges [22-250] but not so well on large [375] but after buying a Forster
Co-Ax and seating dies. I no longer straighten any. If I'm loading for a match, I do sort out any 22-250
with >.001 runout for sighters.

260, 708, 30-06..probably ok then ?

Hornady tool works great for measuring and straightening. Not to sound like a broken record but check everything step by step to find out what's causing the problem rather than fix it at the end. Lee Collet dies and Redding (or any other) competition seater reduced runout the most for me. On the calibers I don't have Collet dies for or when I full size just using the Redding seater worked wonders.

Runout #'s got much better after I switched to Lee collet dies. I don't bump shoulders unless I'm forced to.

Keep this in mind: If you believe full length sizer X does/doesn't work better than full length sizer Y be sure to take into account how that particular specimen of full length die interacts with the lot of brass you're using.

For example, in 308 Winchester I have FL dies from various manufacturers. One of them is a Redding equipped with a carbide expander ball. It works great with thin WW brass, but isn't worth a damn with Lapua.

The rifle will tell you what it likes. I have a couple that like a little shoulder bump & body size every time, and I've loaded for a friend's 308 that smoothly chambers neck sized only brass even after several firings with full power loads. These days I prefer to body size all hunting ammo.

It looks like most of the original questions have been answered so I'll just touch on a few things.

When I started competing in long range I bought a Sinclair gauge. I load for a 6.5-284 using an arbor press and Wilson dies. Setting the bullet squarely on the case mouth and gently seating the bullet results in nearly 100% of my ammo having less that .001 runout. I've shot groups with cartridges that had different amounts of runout and have noticed a few things. If you roll a loaded cartridge across a flat surface the naked eye can see .004 or more runout. If you can see it with the naked eye I can see it in my groups. I'll shoot .001-.002 in matches and use anything more for fouling shots or sighters.

Im my experience, you need an accurate rifle to see this. If you have a 2" rifle, don't expect to see the difference if your ammo has .003 runout. Its not worth the effort. I'm not one to discourage experimenting but theres not much point in chasing the last .000 in accuracy unless your rig is capable.

A friend has a tool that straightens crooked ammo by inserting the case neck into a hole and bending it back to straight. Some test show no improvement when doing this but he swears by it.

I've found runout to be caused by several things. #1 is probably the operator. Expander balls in sizing dies get their share of the blame. Crappy brass can cause this too. If you have .009 difference in neck wall thickness, don't expect to have low runout.

A few years ago putting an "O" ring under your die was a hot fad. I tried this and quickly declared this to be BS.

Straight line seating dies can help with runout but good loading practice and attention to detail count for a lot. I can load good straight ammo on standard dies by being cautious and having the seating stem fit the bullet.

All of this in spades^^^. Over the years, I have found various combinations of brands and types of dies to be "the best" for various lots/brands of brass.

An example, after years of PFLR sizing different lots of WW brass for a particular 270, and performing two sizings before having to trim, this new lot of WW brass stretches like a sumbee when I keep the shoulder in the same place or bump it back a 'thou. No matter what I tried I couldn't prevent it. So I switched to a Redding body die and LCD and it solved my problem.

It's interesting that some others are having best success with Forster sizing dies. My Redding sizing dies have beat out the Forsters every time I've compared. Sometimes by a very small amount, sometimes by a bunch........

A Forster FL die I have in 308 Winchester had a way too tight neck section. I got them to hone it out to my spec and now it's super with thicker brass like Lapua, Federal and Lake City.

I use my Hornady FL die in 308 Win in two stages: size w/o expander and then push the necks over the elliptical expander. This produces very straight brass. So, why don't I use it all the time? It reduces the case body diameter and taper from head to shoulder to like new dimensions. Ok then, so why do I use it at all? It trues up new "bag brass" that is sometimes dinged up and out of round, and it's great for making brass from one rifle fit another.

This...

John

Saw this - just something to think about pertaining to runout .

I can't see youtube right now.

What's the quick rundown?

I'd appreciate a brief summary too.

A guy is showing how putting a lot of pressure on the handle of a press - when the ram is at the top the linkage pushes the ram sideways creating 10K radial runout .

Don't slam or manhandle the press. Don't pull the handle like you're playing an old style slot machine.

The bullet seating operation doesn't require much force. Let it gently slide into place, ideally with one finger bottoming out the handle. No need to put any pressure on the handle when it stops. Treat your press like a lady.

CGPaul ,

Saw a guy using your bullet seating technique while ago - giving it the ol handle jigglewiggle - he was getting 1K runout max , appeared to work real well .

Good video, but the title is misleading. It was more about technique than press style. I prefer a press that doesn't cam over, because it is easier to adjust the resizing dies.

This is an interesting thread. But I have a question. I was reading JB's "Gack I" the other evening and he talked about how inconsistencies in neck wall thickness plays havoc with group sizes. Since the Lee collet die uses a different method for neck sizing, does it eliminate this concern? Or, even if using the LCD, do necks still need to be turned for consistency? My guess is that inconsistencies in neck wall thickness also affect neck tension, but that's just a guess on my part. Y'all can tell me if that's the case.

Thanks.

Mike ,

Some people claim they have turned case necks that were way out and got no improvement , others swear by neck turning . The neck expands when the round is fired and the thicker part of the neck presses against the side of the chamber before the thin side so ? . Turning the neck surely couldn't hurt . I'm seeing more and more the reasons to use high-end brass if consistent small groups are something you need for that rifle.
No on the LCD it presses the neck around a mandrel - if brass has thick spot in neck it'll still be thick after running it through a LCD .

Appears the Hornady Gauge ONLY measures finished cartridges - not good for tracking down brass problems - don't mean to sound like a broken record either .

That's what I figured. Thanks for the confirmation.

I noticed with my 450-400 and using a Lyman M-die for expanding, that the M-die seemed to work a heck of a lot smoother than using the expander in the sizing die. I checked to see what happened with the runout between the two, the M-die definitely won that experiment. I picked up a new 7-08 here, just finished setting up new brass for it, used a Sinclair universal expander on the new cases rather than running them into an fls or neck die to round out the case mouths. Once I have them fireformed, I'll run it again with seeing what the difference is between the Forster neck bushing bump die and the regular RCBS neck die with and without the expanders, and using the Sinclair expanders on it. I'l run them all in a Rockchucker with and without an o-ring, and in a Coax. Be interesting to see how much, if any, difference it all makes. I'll use motor mica lube on all them as well.
The Sinclair expanders only needed mica lube about every 5th case, but, they were new, clean cases. Usually on dirty cases they only need to be lubed about every third case with the expander ball, we'll see how the Sinclair expanders work out with those. I didn't know to look there at the time, but, K&M has a kit of expanders from .002 to .0035 for 70.00, which works out to a better price I believe, and more versatility than a bushing die. Tough call to make unless you go thru all the experiments to see what works, or if it is even worth it.