Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Run-out discussion ? ...

Same here, I bought 6x47 and 6.5x47 Forster dies for the evil twins and have since bought several more sets. Forster dies have resulted in the lowest runout I have found with all other FL dies including Hornady, Lee, RCBS and Redding...Lee Collet dies are the exception.

I had an RCBS gauge but replaced it with a Sinclair, the model posted above would be an upgrade over the Sinclair but I doubt I will change now.

I'm just a novice but I bought the hornady tool and I believe it has helped with less fliers. I check them all and may have to tweak 1 out of 10. I started using orings under my sizing die lock rings also after reading about folks doing that.

I read about the O-Ring and JeffB cutting out plastic washers etc. - I guess that allows the seating die to align itself during the seating of the bullet ?
Looked for that thread but couldn't find it .

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/o-rings-on-dies-may-reduce-run-out/


O-Rings on Dies May Reduce Run-Out
Here’s an inexpensive procedure that can help you load straighter ammo, with slightly better measured concentricity (i.e. less run-out) on the case necks and bullets. Simply use a rubber O-Ring on the underside of the die locking ring. This allows the die to self-align itself (slightly) to the case that is being sized. Without the O-Ring, if the flat surface on the top of your press is not perfectly square with the thread axis, your die can end up slightly off-angle. This happens when the bottom of the locking ring butts up tight against the top of the press. The O-Ring allows the die to float slightly, and that may, in turn, reduce the amount of run-out induced during case sizing.

I could be wrong but I swear its a #17 oring I've been using

Thanks Swifty52 !
There's an Ace right up the road .

Yes #17 O-Ring .

Conversely, what's to say that by having the threads on the die and press mated up makes axis of the die collinear with the case? There are many variables in play, right? Shell holder, threads on the dies, threads on the press, bottom of die being square, reamed out area of die collinear and concentric with die body, etc.

I've used a flat washer to square things up. Another method I've used is to leave the die loose in the press. Once I had established the headspace I wanted (by sizing the fired cases and placing them in a headspace gauge - i.e. the rifle chamber) , I'd run the case into the die about 90% of the way, then lock the ring. This ensures that the case and die are collinear.

MM

I don’t advocate it as a fix all or do all. I just point to the information and they can come to their own conclusions. Have I tried it? Yes. Did it help, not that I could notice. Did it hurt, not that I could notice.
Why?
Picture 1. RCBS on their chuckers use a screw in insert. On both of mine the only contact made by the insert is on the outer corners and threads. There is a rounded bevel above the press threads that it screws into. I put an O-Ring there to compress slightly before the corners touched. Kinda filled that gap between the bevel and insert.



Pic 2. Again very little of the lock ring was actually making contact and not very evenly, so the O-Ring when hand tightened actually fills all irregular areas, adds a little more contact surface plus fills that little chamfer void.

upload image to url

Uh I don't know maybe it doesn't interest them. Maybe they are shooting 500-600-700-1000 yd groups. Just because you like it doesn't mean everyone else wants to do it. But I do agree with you buddy you don't need all that high speed [bleep] to roll great ammunition. Ever since I switched up to, screwing my sizer die decamping stem all the way up, my runout is non existent now.

I certainly check run out, but with good bushing dies (Forster, Redding, Whidden, etc.), sound set up (no expander ball, dies floated, etc.), proper annealing and mandrels to set neck tension, it's become nearly a moot point.

As I said before, that all day challenge is not worth wasting 20 shots on. There is not 1 ounce of fairness or integrity left. It was lost when they changed to allowing pedestal front rests depending on cost, person and whether it was a brand new custom. Started out as bull bags, bipods or sand bag. No pedestal or BR rests. When the rules are changed once, it’s way to easy to show preference and change the rules un-announced midstream again.

I have the Sinclair early style concentricty gauge with the regular V-blocks the Sinclair gauge with the bumps in the V-blocks, and the RCBS Casemaster. I use the Casemaster these days.

Most of my rifles produce low runout PFLR'g with Redding FL dies, some do better with Redding bump dies and Redding Nk dies. I use Forster seater dies. Some of my Forster sizing dies come close to the Reddings in low neck runout, some don't even come close, but in the end all my Redding sizing dies beat the Forster's.

One batch of new WW brass in a 270 stretches a mile when I try PFLR'g and bumping the shoulder back a thou' or so no matter where I set it. I gave up and went to a bump die with the Lee Collet die and it's now producing low neck runout so I stopped there. Haven't shot this load yet so I'll see if it translates into an accurate hunting load.

Sorry to interrupt with a noobie question, but has anyone tried the Hornady version...and does the straightening portion work as desired ?

I have found it to work on smaller cartridges [22-250] but not so well on large [375] but after buying a Forster
Co-Ax and seating dies. I no longer straighten any. If I'm loading for a match, I do sort out any 22-250
with >.001 runout for sighters.

260, 708, 30-06..probably ok then ?

Hornady tool works great for measuring and straightening. Not to sound like a broken record but check everything step by step to find out what's causing the problem rather than fix it at the end. Lee Collet dies and Redding (or any other) competition seater reduced runout the most for me. On the calibers I don't have Collet dies for or when I full size just using the Redding seater worked wonders.

Runout #'s got much better after I switched to Lee collet dies. I don't bump shoulders unless I'm forced to.

Keep this in mind: If you believe full length sizer X does/doesn't work better than full length sizer Y be sure to take into account how that particular specimen of full length die interacts with the lot of brass you're using.

For example, in 308 Winchester I have FL dies from various manufacturers. One of them is a Redding equipped with a carbide expander ball. It works great with thin WW brass, but isn't worth a damn with Lapua.

The rifle will tell you what it likes. I have a couple that like a little shoulder bump & body size every time, and I've loaded for a friend's 308 that smoothly chambers neck sized only brass even after several firings with full power loads. These days I prefer to body size all hunting ammo.

It looks like most of the original questions have been answered so I'll just touch on a few things.

When I started competing in long range I bought a Sinclair gauge. I load for a 6.5-284 using an arbor press and Wilson dies. Setting the bullet squarely on the case mouth and gently seating the bullet results in nearly 100% of my ammo having less that .001 runout. I've shot groups with cartridges that had different amounts of runout and have noticed a few things. If you roll a loaded cartridge across a flat surface the naked eye can see .004 or more runout. If you can see it with the naked eye I can see it in my groups. I'll shoot .001-.002 in matches and use anything more for fouling shots or sighters.

Im my experience, you need an accurate rifle to see this. If you have a 2" rifle, don't expect to see the difference if your ammo has .003 runout. Its not worth the effort. I'm not one to discourage experimenting but theres not much point in chasing the last .000 in accuracy unless your rig is capable.

A friend has a tool that straightens crooked ammo by inserting the case neck into a hole and bending it back to straight. Some test show no improvement when doing this but he swears by it.

I've found runout to be caused by several things. #1 is probably the operator. Expander balls in sizing dies get their share of the blame. Crappy brass can cause this too. If you have .009 difference in neck wall thickness, don't expect to have low runout.

A few years ago putting an "O" ring under your die was a hot fad. I tried this and quickly declared this to be BS.

Straight line seating dies can help with runout but good loading practice and attention to detail count for a lot. I can load good straight ammo on standard dies by being cautious and having the seating stem fit the bullet.