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I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.



My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.

I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.

These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.

Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.

Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.

That's just one example.

Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.

There are MANY MANY other examples too.

So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.

I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".

The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.

It's been that way for 200 years.

It's not likely to change tomorrow.

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Buying a cheap stock for a mountain rifle build instead of forking the $ for an Edge! Having the wrong stock on a rifle you spent good money to build is a let down when you excitedly shoulder it the first time. Ugh!

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I traded a buddy out of a 7x57 he'd had built and then lost interest in.

A little too heavy contour, Too slow twist, Too long throat... It does shoot 154gr Hornady really well so I'll keep it , for now anyway.


"Camping places fix themselves in your mind as if you had spent long periods of your life in them.
You will remember a curve of your wagon track in the grass of the plain like the features of a friend."
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Originally Posted by szihn
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.



My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.

I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.

These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.

Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.

Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.

That's just one example.

Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.

There are MANY MANY other examples too.

So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.

I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".

The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.

It's been that way for 200 years.

It's not likely to change tomorrow.

Truth...



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Originally Posted by elkhunternm
Originally Posted by C_ROY
What brand is that thumbhole stock?

Bell & Carlson


I which they still made that model. I'm shopping for a thumbhole now. I am looking at the Pendleton http://www.oregunsmithingllc.com/Pendleton-Composite-Stocks.html


PASS IT ON!
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Originally Posted by szihn

.
.
.
.
the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better,
.
.
.
.
The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.

It's been that way for 200 years.

It's not likely to change tomorrow.

Winner winner chicken dinner!!!

Wheel tubs, drag slicks, 90/10 shocks & skinnys up front, 4.56:1 spooled diff, 5000RPM stall coupled with a 7800RPM big block is a lot of fun.
In a straight line.
Not so good for a daily driver.

So many rifles I see posted fall into a similar category. I think part of the reason is there are more people just shooting for groups and enjoying working up their latest pet load. And the percentage of shooters vs hunters has changed over the years. This has pushed the envelope in the shooting industry. It's a good thing.

A hunting rifle has different parameters. Balance should be one of them. And I don't mean just the center of gravity.

Which kind of rifle are you wanting to build?
This should be the first question on your build sheet.


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I have a 257 Wby on a M70 SS Classic w/Lilja #3 3-groove, 1:10" @ 25" in a McMillan edge Winchester Classic pattern w/Blind magazine.

To do over again, I'd specify a shorter shank and I'd use a Winchester Fwt pattern edge stock. However, it's really splitting frog-hairs.

I have a 4.5-14x40 Leupold mounted on it in Tally LWT's on the above described rifle, it's just a few oz over 8#. The rifle is very accurate from a bench and I have a lot of confidence (and some photo evidence of dead critters) that I can shoot it well from field-positions as well. I built it as a no-frills hunting rifle, it's that, and none of the above stated changes would make me use the rifle any more or less than I currently do.


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My biggest mistake was my very first custom rifle chambered in 300 win mag - built far too light for the volume I like to practice with a hunting rifle. sick
Only mild regrets since with numerous builds have been largely superfluous with work done to bolt handles, flutes etc.


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Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
Originally Posted by GonHuntin
How many have built customs and then wished they had done something different after receiving the finished product? What would you change if you could??


I had Kampfeld build a 7 SAUM for me........I like the rifle, and it is a shooter, but would do things differently if I could start over. I ordered a fluted Krieger barrel for the build and, if I had it to do over again, I'd change 2 things. I ordered a heavy contour fluted barrel, the flutes on my blank were very shallow.....if I had known how shallow they would be I wouldn't have paid for fluting. After using the rifle for awhile the heavy contour lost some of it's appeal.

So, if I could go back and do it over, I'd probably order a lighter contour and skip the flutes.


Based on what I have seen for sale in the classifieds quite a few have had regrets.


Ha ha.. Sure enough. I always liked builds like bobin had. Nice light contour barrels and balanced well. From what I see a lot of times, most builds aren't balanced right and have too heavy (too fat and too long) of barrels. That comes with experience though, as a lot of those guys think you need a big fat pig heavy barrel to shoot well. Not true, especially when we are talking hunting rifles for the most part.


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Wrong caliber, that was my downfall. But it was easily remedied by setting the barrel back and rechambering, I got lucky. szihn is right on the money in my opinion. Two of my most recent builds had me staying with the original design and weight of factory rifles I really like, but improving them with a caliber they didn't offer and the other one with a twist they didn't offer. The latter one I built an English walnut stock for also, but staying with the original stock specs and adding a check piece.
The weight and balance are very close to the factory's although mine may be under theirs by a few oz. Barrel length and contour match the factory's. These 2 are my idea of the perfect hunting rifle and to say I am satisfied would be an understatement.

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Originally Posted by szihn
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.



My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.

I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.

These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.

Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.

Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.

That's just one example.

Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.

There are MANY MANY other examples too.

So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.

I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".

The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.

It's been that way for 200 years.

It's not likely to change tomorrow.


For fu cks sake, I don't want a gunsmith to coach me on what I need or what he thinks I need. One of the reasons I love my gunsmith. He will do what I want and it's done right and in a timely manner. "No fuss no muss".


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by szihn
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.



My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.

I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.

These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.

Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.

Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.

That's just one example.

Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.

There are MANY MANY other examples too.

So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.

I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".

The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.

It's been that way for 200 years.

It's not likely to change tomorrow.


For fu cks sake, I don't want a gunsmith to coach me on what I need or what he thinks I need. One of the reasons I love my gunsmith. He will do what I want and it's done right and in a timely manner. "No fuss no muss".


That makes sense for a lot of us rifle loonies who have owned umpteen rifles, tried just about every combination, and are familiar with the options available and how they will all come together. However, it is hard to keep mind that even on this forum many people don't have that experience and are wanting to have a custom built. I guess that is why they are here asking questions about it?
The one thing I neglected to mention in my over long dissertation is you can't expect to tell the gunsmith exactly what to build if you aren't on top of what you really want. This is more normal than not but a lot of guys take their pride into the smith's shop and don't have the sense to ask the smith his opinions on the areas where it would be helpful to fill in the blanks. If he is a good smith, he will be able to help you out in areas you are weak in, and fill in the areas where you know a bit, but not enough to get to the finishline just yet. If you find a good smith, it will be a collaborative effort. If you find one who is "not so good" it will be a struggle the whole way and ending up with your dream rifle will be serendipitous at best. If you have the money, hire the best with the reputation to match your needs, and wait until they hand you your new toy. I doubt you'll be disappointed, but it will cost you a good chunk. Just another way to get an education I guess....

Bob


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I've had five true custom rifles and a few more either rebarreled or modified to some extent. The first of the five customs is beautiful and stays at home because it is both too heavy and too pretty. One is exactly what I wanted and is both light and accurate. It shows the wear. Three others are gone since they didn't make the cut in accuracy or failed to meet requested specifications. A gunsmith told me the reason he made the length of pull 13.5 inches was that it was standard even though we'd agreed on 14 and a quarter inch. A friend with shorter arms got a heck of a deal after the gunsmith refused to replace the stock and only offered to put in spacers at an additional cost.

I've thought about this topic and concluded the only reason I ever wanted a custom rifle is because I could. Customs aren't necessarily better hunting tools and you lose your shirt on resale. My fascination with wildcats is over, too. There isn't much game hunting that can't be done with a 180 grain thirty caliber bullet at 2700 feet per second. Add a scope to the rifle, either variable or fixed, with no more than 7X magnification and make it shoot 1 1/2 inch three shot groups at 100 yards and I'm good to go. If the rifle costs less than five hundred dollars before the scope and is reliable, all the better.

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Ray Montgomery did my first custom rifle. I wanted a 6.5 varmint rig. I never specified a twist but in my ignorance told him I wanted to shoot lighter bullets really fast. 23 years has gone by and I still have and like that rifle. I'm a wee bit wiser now and most builds after that have been spot on.
Hamilton Bowen did my first custom handgun. A thing of beauty. If my budget would have allowed it, I would of had it hard chromed then, maybe someday.


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Fortunately, most of the rifles I have had built turned out about like I dreamed them too. Before building, I research my ideas quite a bit from shows (SCI DSC, etc), friends, internet, and such so I feel pretty good when laying down the next project. HOWEVER, I have had multiple issues when first receiving some of these past rifles. All were corrected and ultimately taken care of, but it sucks finding problems with a project that you just spent lots of $$$$$ and time on. Even using some of the most notable builders around, I have had a few issues. Meaning, even the biggest names in the custom rifle world have given me a few issues that were just headscratchers upfront. Again all were taken care of but things like loose action screws, feeding issues, scratches in finishes, floor plates springing open when fired, loose scope bases, and similar should be found before a builder ships the final project to you.

When the rifle is complete and before it ships, ask the builder to shoot it with a fully loaded mag, cycle the bolt, check the bedding/finishes, torque settings, and make sure it is overall ready to go.

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Originally Posted by T_O_M
I've only had one rifle I truly regretted. I ordered a custom barrel and what was delivered was different than what I'd discussed with the barrel maker. The email trail seemed pretty clear but they wouldn't stand behind their promise. (It was Hart in case anyone cares.) My gunsmith tried to make the best of the situation and built a good rifle but it wasn't the rifle I was imagining and I was never satisfied with it. I "accidentally" had a .220 Swift built that was too nose-heavy and wouldn't stay on the bags. Most failures I've had came down to time ... by the time the parts arrived and the 'smith could do his work, my interests had drifted onwards and the gun wasn't what I was dreaming of anymore.

So one thing to do differently is to be sure that what you're ordering is not just what you want now, but what you'll want when it arrives. Another is to find a 'smith that wants to build what you want to receive so that you're staying 'in the box" so far as his established skills.

Tom

I had the same trouble with Hart barrels, finally ended up paying a couple of hundred dollars to have them re contour the barrel to fix THEIR MISTAKE. Never again! It shot just fine, but because of the hassle never warmed up to the rifle and sold it. Somebody got a good buy!

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Originally Posted by okie john
Originally Posted by GonHuntin
How many have built customs and then wished they had done something different after receiving the finished product?

I had several custom firearms built when I had more range and gun shop experience than hunting experience. Every one of them was way too expensive for the advantages that it actually provided. After I spent more time hunting, and after I read a lot of Allen Day's posts, I realized that a CRF Model 70 with good glass and a good synthetic stock is all that I need. I have a 30-06 and I'd like to get a 270, 308, 300 WM, or 338 WM for a backup, but I'm done customizing firearms beyond that.


Okie John

Totally agree, done a fair amount of customs, most in gee whiz wildcats, but the thrill is gone. 90% of my hunting is done with a Stainless Steel Model 70 that I put in a McMillian Hunters Edge chambered in 270 Winchester. DONE! The other 10% is with Model 99 FWT 300 Savage and a .54 Lyman Great Plains Rifle

Still have the high dollar customs and still enjoy tinkering, but they always stay home when I'm off to hunt. Spend that money on hunting trips, you'll enjoy it more. Every once in awhile I think about building another dream rifle and then I pick up the Model 70 and say to myself "You already have it". In the long run it can't get much better.

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I have a friend who had a rifle built many years ago in a wildcat caliber, cant remember which one now for the life of me, but he put it on consignment at a gun shop and it sat for over a year and nobody seemed interested in it.

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The mistake I made on this one, was to not get 2 of them.;..

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Originally Posted by szihn
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.



My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.

I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.

These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.

Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.

Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.

That's just one example.

Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.

There are MANY MANY other examples too.

So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.

I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".

The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.

It's been that way for 200 years.

It's not likely to change tomorrow.


Hilarious schit as usual...

General purpose vs. Specialty?

WTF?

Maybe you meant Sporter vs. Varmint?

Or wood/blue vs. stainless/synthetic?

Or short vs. long action?

Or blind mag vs. dbm?

PLEASE tell me you are "The Real Gunsmith"...



Screw you! I'm voting for Trump again!

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