I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.
My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.
I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.
These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.
Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.
Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.
That's just one example.
Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.
There are MANY MANY other examples too.
So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.
I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".
The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.
My biggest regret was always short magazine box and Long loaded cartridge OAL to where I had no room to chase the lands. NEVER AGAIN!!!
I found that expecting a gunsmith to work cheap or for nothing is really bad thinking.
Better success is found from a gunsmith if I provide my own reamer, barrel, stock, and action.
Give written instructions to the gunsmith in great detail.
Learned this the hard way, if you are wanting a super accurate rifle, then a #4 shilen contour is minimum and #5 Shilen contour is preferable, cut the barrel short if you want to save weight on the above.
1. AI anything. I hate fire forming. 2. Any build centered around a stock or barrel I might have had on hand. It is far best to start over. Builds should be based on bullets and application. Now I look to see what factory ammo is available too.
15 or so years ago one of my very good and particular clients had an issue with Hart. Kevin has virtually unlimited resources. He would order 5 or 6 rifles at a time and he'd have AT LEAST 10 barrels per gun fitted up in various flavors. Twist rates, throats lengths, neck OD's, etc. He had acquired quite the collection.
We had one that just refused to play nice. Swap the barrel and it'd settle down just fine. Put the old one back on and it would go to hell again. So, he mails it to Hart and asks them (asks, because Kevin is the kind of client a builder dreams for, always courteous, always a pro, and never once balks at a cost so long as he gets what he wants)
Well, Hart tells him to basically suck it. They were rude. [bleep] even.
Apparently, they don't pay attention to Purchase Orders. If they had, they'd of realized this guy had over 300 barrels from them. I am NOT making this up. Kevin is just "one of those guys" and he had the means to do whatever he wants.
And that is exactly what he did.
He took every one of those barrels and hauled them down to a machine shop somewhere in IL where he lives. He paid them the going rate and they cut those barrels into 1" segments on a band saw. He then crated the whole mess up and had it shipped to Hart barrels with a very plainly worded letter encouraging all of them to have intercourse with themselves.
Then he replaced a whole lot with a new company and we did it all over again.
No [bleep]. True story.
Hart barrels. They've never made a mistake. Just ask them, they'll tell you.
Caveat Emptor
Last edited by C_Dixon; 11/21/18.
"Remember, men will be their lives on the work you do." -Phillip Newsom
15 or so years ago one of my very good and particular clients had an issue with Hart. Kevin had virtually unlimited resources. He would order 5 or 6 rifles at a time and he'd have AT LEAST 10 barrels per gun fitted up in various flavors. Twist rates, throats lengths, neck OD's, etc. He had acquired quite the collection.
We had one that just refused to play nice. Swap the barrel and it'd settle down just fine. Put the old one back on and it would go to hell again. So, he mails it to Hart and asks them (asks, because Kevin is the kind of client a builder dreams for, always courteous, always a pro, and never once balks at a cost so long as he gets what he wants)
Well, Hart tells him to basically suck it. They were rude. [bleep] even.
Apparently, they don't pay attention to Purchase Orders. If they had, they'd of realized this guy had over 300 barrels from them. I am NOT making this up. Kevin is just "one of those guys" and he had the means to do whatever he wants.
And that is exactly what he did.
He took every one of those barrels and hauled them down to a machine shop somewhere in IL where he lives. He paid them the going rate and they cut those barrels into 1" segments on a band saw. He then crated the whole mess up and had it shipped to Hart barrels with a very plainly worded letter encouraging all of them to have intercourse with themselves.
Then he replaced a whole lot with a new company and we did it all over again.
No [bleep]. True story.
Hart barrels. They've never made a mistake. Just ask them, they'll tell you.
Caveat Emptor
Funny story, the only barrel on a custom I can't seem to get to shoot is a Hart.... hmmmm....
Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability.
I have two Hart barrels, both shoot extremely well. The 7mm barrel was delivered slightly heavier in contour than what was spec'd. Hart offered to re-contour the barrel to specification at no cost to myself. I ended up keeping the slightly heavier contour based on my 'Smith's reccomendation and I'm well satisfied with the rifle. Neither barrel fouls notably and both shoot multiple weight bullets of various construction to nearly identical POI's.
Biggest damned mistake I've made is trusting gunsmiths to do what I ask and do it right. I've been burned more often than I've had the work done properly, and I give VERY specific instructions. I had a local guy who did just what you asked and did it well. Unfortunately he went out of business due to ITAR. I will never EVER use another gunsmith unless he is highly and widely endorsed by longstanding members on here and/or longrangehunting. I would trust C Dixon who posted on this thread, as well as Redneck. I have used and trust Kevin Cram of Montour County Rifles. I have a full custom built by Cloud Peak Gunworks in Basin, WY that I bought second hand and it is a laser.
Stock ergos for me. I built a 6.5 creed and just couldn’t fall in the love with the stock. Changing that stock also affected the shank of the barrel so it had to be longer in order to look perfect in the stock(I hope this makes sense). I changed from a mountaineer stock to the hunters edge. The mountaineer was made for the barrel contour and the shank I had in mind......I just didn’t like that stock once I felt it. Since then I’ve gotten to really enjoy the rifle and boy does it shoot!
I learned a lot. My last build is about as perfect as I could have wanted. My only regret is using a 709 action. I wish I’d of went Stiller or some other clone. But this little 7-08 is likely my favorite rifle for now. I used an EH8 and a Hart #3 fluted Barrel Finished at 20”. It’s a hammer and a joy to hunt with.
The biggest issues I've seen were weight, balance and stock fit.
A pal of mine that had drawn an elk tag and wanted a semi light .30. I did a really nice short Rem.700 with a 22" #2 barrel in 300WSM in the McMillan Sako Hunter. When it was done, I did the load work up.... it delivered honest 3/8"-1/2" three shot groups at 100 with an assortment of good hunting bullets using a scope that is dedicated for load work. I had given him some recommendations on scopes that would complete the package. Excitedly, he told me he was bringing the scope over for me to mount and sight in.
Like a proud new Dad, he reaches in a big box and produces a Nightforce NSX 5.5-22X50.
VERY easy to gain loot...simply by shopping goods of repute and assembling same collectively.
Hint..................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
Should have listened to my gun smith when he said the barrel was a cork screw and had a tromboned bore. He made it good but took more load development than it should have.
Lilja would not respond, Midway would trade me a new barrel but I would be out shipping and the chamber job costs. So I just went with it as a beater gun and am doing my best to shoot out the barrel.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
Do tell about about "extra" load development!................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
