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I saw some errors reading this.

" After the rut starts in mid-August, elk typically breed the last week of September or first week of October."

Although elk are vocal to some extent, bulls usually do not start gathering cows this early. It is known as pre rut. Disrupting the actual breeding rut is what affects the breeding.

"And, he added that muzzle-loading rifle season should not happen in the middle of the rut.“Biologically, morally this is wrong,” he said.

BS,In areas where there is unlimited archery tags,most areas permit only 100 bull tags for ML season. Why isn't
that morally wrong? Peterson,hunting since 81 is far from an expert just because he is so vocal.Hell, I have been hunting elk since 61 and probably killed more elk than he has,and I'm certainly no expert, but I bet I could teach him a thing or two.Opinions don't count for crap.

It wasn't only the 3500 cow tags down south but for several years CPW sold 2000 cow tags/year as OTC in the Flat Tops units of northern Colorado

One thing is for certain, the entire elk herd management strategy for the last ten years + and the elk herd decline falls 100% on the CPW because of the letting too many elk being killed. Two factors. Their love of more money and being in bed with the Agricultural community .This past legislation that granted them a very large increase in revenue and the ability to increase it with out legislative approval will see salaries grow, fancier trucks ,less CPW in the field, increases minimal with respect to sound management.Yet the average hunter will see less hunting opportunity available in return for his more expensive tags .

The only way this is going to stop is all hunters come together and put and end to some of this BS. They did this in NM about 40 years ago and were successful. Anyway you spin it CPW has screwed up. Hunters need to start attending the meetings, both CPW commission and Round Table meetings.Currently if you see 50 attendees, it's a crowd.


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You're welcome!


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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SS,

Most cows in the southern Rockies are pregnant by Oct 1st. Not all of them by any stretch. The peak of the rut is that last 10 days of Sept and probably first few days of Oct. There is always cows that don't get bred in their first estrus.

I agree that blackpowder is not as disruptive as the hordes of archers, but blackpowder does have a bigger impact per hunter because it's a firearm and can be used at greater distances than archery.

Revenue to CPW is only a part of the money equation. It's the money on main street, outfitters and ranchers who make a fair bit of their annual income from hunt leases. They are the ones who are bending the ear of the Commission, legislators, and the Governor. And in turn those three often figuratively park their butt on the desk of the CPW director and put the pressure on. Wildlife is not managed for sound biology it is managed for people.

When N.M. dramatically restricted elk hunting in the 60's to address declining pregnancy rates (there weern't enough bulls beyond the age of 1 year), NM let the herd and bull ratio grow, by the mid 70's NM had fantastic elk hunting. But the ranchers in Northern NM figured out how lucrative elk hunting was, they began to pressure the legislature and state wildlife dept for more licenses. The number of bulls bulls beyond the age of 4 declined and today there is not the quality of big bulls in NM as there was from mid 70's to late 80's. I guided on three different ranches around Chama during that time and from the mid-80's to the mid-90's the decline in 4+ year old bulls was pretty significant.

I agree that hunters are going to have to speak up again, but there is a difference between over hunting and the disturbance factor that is being suggested in the article. Over the past 5-6 years CPW has significantly reduced the number of cow tags as the elk herds in the DAU\'s reached their population objective. It's just that the herds in the SW continued to decline even when cow tags were reduced.

There is also the combining of the two agencies that is "diluting" the biology and management of wildlife--too much is being directed elsewhere. That dumbazz Lickenpooper anyway......


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Miss management is what is generally under question in the article, although some quotes are pointing fingers at other hunting groups. There probably is some correlation to the new interest in archery hunting and disrupting the rut, but has yet to be proven. If you look at the annual budget of CPW it is pretty small for a statewide agency. Of the 240 million about 50 million comes from combined instate and out of state tags. They have a lot of employees and running cost to cover with that money. The only thing for certain is if we don't start managing the herds better then the out of state folks will stop paying big money to come to Colorado and take there rifles/bows/smokesticks for hikes. I rarely see CPW officers in the field, maybe three times in my 20 some years of hunting. More money should be given to the agency but granted only for solid research with no political motive (wishful thinking). As it stands there are still elk to be had and will be for a long time, but if we don't start managing the elk, forest and public lands better we will lose more than money can buy back.

If we simply got rid of the OTC and unlimited tag process we might have better hunting experiences, and more animals might be taken because they wouldn't be pushed onto private ranches and rural subdivisions. That's a start but not the full answer. The main thing is archers, muzzle-loaders and rifle hunters need to stick together, as we all want the same goal. I don't feel the declining herds are a hunting issue, rather it's an administrative issue with CPW.

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FIRST Colorado is not in the game management business, it is in the license business. There used to be 1 season, now there are 4 rifle, ML, and archery. Add in the forementioned 4WD vehicles everyone has, and they are not old flat fenders, ATVs; and where I go (Flattops) sheep run all over all summer, didn't used to. And when we are leaving the next wave is already coming in to :"scout".

You used to be able to get onto private land now it is cost prhibitive, and the same rdanchers who cuss elk charge big money, and then also turn in damage claims.

If you cut the number of hunters in an area to 5 or 10 percent of wht is there now, sucess would probably be the same, the experience would be better. (Let me have my license every year though).

There are few if any buckskinners left, the bowhunters have way better equipment. I do wonder how many inlines also are using the sabot bullets, despite laws.

Most of us can't bugle worth crap, actually, so we are just irritating the bulls.

I feel sorry for you out of staters paying what you do.

Last edited by kennyd; 11/25/18.
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Alpinecrick. As I remember the litigation against the NM DOW was aimed at the practice of the ranchers with outfitters being permitted to have elk season all fall long while the regular hunter had two weeks. (Chama Land and Cattle Company was one of them). This is about what CPW is doing with RFW program except making ranches give a few tags to the open public. Few is being generous to say the least. All under the idea that those ranches are practicing good conservation techniques for the wildlife .Don't even get me started on the vouchers given to ranchers under the pretense of crop damage etc,and the the rancher sells those vouchers for a tidy sum.

Kennyd in the preceding post has it figured out

Last edited by saddlesore; 11/25/18.

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Alpinecrick.

Most cows in the southern Rockies are pregnant by Oct 1st. Not all of them by any stretch. The peak of the rut is that last 10 days of Sept and probably first few days of Oct. There is always cows that don't get bred in their first estrus.

I am aware of that which is why I said that early pre rut is not when the breeding is done.

I agree that blackpowder is not as disruptive as the hordes of archers, but black powder does have a bigger impact per hunter because it's a firearm and can be used at greater distances than archery


Yes,the individual success may be higher, but the sheer numbers of archery tags given out far out weigh that.In addition,CPW, by design, makes the ML season in pre rut not in prime breeding times,where as part of archery season is.

As I remember the litigation against the NM DOW was aimed at the practice of the giving the big ranchers with outfitters the ability to have elk season all fall long while the regular hunter had two weeks back then. (Chama Land and Cattle Company w as one of them). This is about what CPW is doing with RFW program except making ranches give a few tags to the open public. Few is being generous to say the least.All under the idea that those ranches are practicing good conservation techniques for the wildlife .Don't even get me started on the vouchers given to ranchers under the pretense of crop damage etc,and the the rancher sells those vouchers for a tidy sum.

Kennyd has it figured out

Last edited by saddlesore; 11/25/18.

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A lot of unanswered questions in that write-up

How many cows have calves?

Calf rate survival?

Range condition ?

Those would be high on my list of top questions . that would give a clue to the base problem . Then figure out how to change the basic problem .

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I think AZ is about 5-10 years ahead of CO, but not in a good way.

things that make it worse in AZ
  • fewer deer and elk to start with
  • less moisture/precip
  • flat ground (makes the ATVs harder to get away from)
  • no (very little) high country for elk to hide in
  • some big game season open each weekend from mid-august to mid-january
  • population growing faster and larger (than CO)


things that are the same
  • G&F totally funded by tags
  • outfitters and ranchers have a lot of pull with commission
  • commission/dept not concerned with habitat


I don't know about CO, but it feels like we don't make enough tags to get young people interested in hunting.

tags are hard enough to come by that we get "party" hunting. One tag, 3-6 helpers, friends, scouts, walkie-talkie men.

makes for a lot of people in the woods.

Sycamore


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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I sure as hell don’t have any answers to this dilemma and I’m new to living in Colorado but I will say that what I experienced hunting Elk this past Sept was mind boggling. I spent a good bit of time scouting and camping in the unit I hunted well before season opened and never saw a single sole in there. What I encountered with the hordes of bow hunters when I arrived two days before muzzle loader season absolutely devastated me. Even being 4.5 mile in by backpack I was surrounded by other backpack hunters, horseback hunters and the guys that leave at 0300 to hike in there. What’s worse is some of these hunters had been in there for 8+ days when I arrived and hadn’t seen a single thing. I hiked high (10,800) I hiked low (8000) I never even saw an elk or even fresh sign. This was an area that I saw elk , heard elk and smelled elk the month before season. I had to quit attempting to call elk because all I called in were hunters. I found myself in a situation that seemed could not yield positive results and I was beyond frustrated. So 3 days in of complete horse chittt I relocated to another unit that my tag was good in and when I arrived it was even worse. I counted 16 camps, not hunters, camps . Some of these camps had 4-5 guys in them and not a single one had elk meat in it. Each day hiking out I would encounter no less than 6 hunters on the trails, I called in a bunch more hunters so I quit calling. It was not even about finding elk it was about trying to find a place there wasn’t any other hunters. I’ll add that so many of the bow hunters I met were from Texas,Oklahoma,Indiana pretty much non-res hunters. It was so pathetic that at one point all these bow hunters were just off a private ranch fence line that had all kinds of elk in it battling with each other in an attempt to draw a bull off the private so they could shoot it. It was retarded, there were guys that could bugle ok, guys who sounded like chit and guys cow calling all at the same time. I was like seriously....... Long story short I was disgusted with my elk hunt and have just had to tell myself that maybe it was just that unit, I don’t know because I returned from that hunt so disgusted that I felt like I’d not even hunt here in Colorado next year.

Like I said when I started this thread, I don’t have any answers but there damn sure seems to be a problem here!

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Originally Posted by AlaskaCub

Like I said when I started this thread, I don’t have any answers but there damn sure seems to be a problem here!


Yep, too many non-resident tags, plain and simple. Driven by the almighty $$, Your "hunt" sounded like the place I tried for a late season cow. All I can tell you is, keep on looking for a good spot with fewer hunters, there are some to be had.



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I quit hunting Colorado a number of years ago due to lots of what is discussed here. Add to that, their politics and short seasons and my money was not justified anymore.

I think that along with all the hunting issues, they are not looking nearly closely enough at bear depredation on the small calves. With their protectionist approach to the black bears, the numbers have risen and they love little calves. It is like they don't want to address that.

Probably the main cause, is that the elk are spending too much time in the marijuana dispensaries.


You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
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Well, they are fairly liberal with bear tags, so I'm not sure bears are to blame.



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The success rate on killing bears seems to be sort of low. Maybe they need to teach some classes or something. Or they could allow baiting and hound hunting them if they wanted to get serious about fixing the problem.

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How can the agriculturalists and ranchers possibly be upset about elk grazing on their property? I have yet to see a private rancher EVER try to scare off the herds of elk that seek refuge on their property during hunting seasons. If the ranchers were even slightly concerned, they'd push the herds back onto public and towards hunters to help lessen the herd that devastates their crop. This year alone, during a period of three partial days we saw over 100 elk on private land bordering public, many of which were big bulls. Most less than a half-mile from public and easily visible from a major road.

I've been hunting elk in CO since '96 and I think the animals have become significantly more weary of hunting seasons. And worse, the hunter population seems to have skyrocketed. Second season is now a $hit show of makeshift tent cities and ATV traffic. Even archery season has lost it's solemn charm. I don't have the answer but I do think, we as hunters are our own worst enemy. We want more game, bigger animals, less people, more natural animal actions, more comfortable camps, and cheaper tags. It's not a doable combination. I don't envy the DOW as I'm sure, like most .gov agencies, politics plays a bigger part than facts for the managing directors. Limiting ATVs might be one step, it would keep hunters more local to their camp and limit joy riders and road hunters. I also think spot checks of animals on private land would help. If ranchers aren't actively trying to move game off their property, they should be restricted somehow in applying for preference/crop damage tags.

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True, but that would require a ballot initiative since both were outlawed through a ballot initiative.



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Originally Posted by Mountain10mm
How can the agriculturalists and ranchers possibly be upset about elk grazing on their property? I have yet to see a private rancher EVER try to scare off the herds of elk that seek refuge on their property during hunting seasons. If the ranchers were even slightly concerned, they'd push the herds back onto public and towards hunters to help lessen the herd that devastates their crop. This year alone, during a period of three partial days we saw over 100 elk on private land bordering public, many of which were big bulls. Most less than a half-mile from public and easily visible from a major road.

I've been hunting elk in CO since '96 and I think the animals have become significantly more weary of hunting seasons. And worse, the hunter population seems to have skyrocketed. Second season is now a $hit show of makeshift tent cities and ATV traffic. Even archery season has lost it's solemn charm. I don't have the answer but I do think, we as hunters are our own worst enemy. We want more game, bigger animals, less people, more natural animal actions, more comfortable camps, and cheaper tags. It's not a doable combination. I don't envy the DOW as I'm sure, like most .gov agencies, politics plays a bigger part than facts for the managing directors. Limiting ATVs might be one step, it would keep hunters more local to their camp and limit joy riders and road hunters. I also think spot checks of animals on private land would help. If ranchers aren't actively trying to move game off their property, they should be restricted somehow in applying for preference/crop damage tags.



This Sept according to a bow hunter I talked with he said the hands that work Wolf Springs Ranch were actually running the fence line in side by sides to scare the elk deeper into the private land not out of it.

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[quote=AlaskaCub


This Sept according to a bow hunter I talked with he said the hands that work Wolf Springs Ranch were actually running the fence line in side by sides to scare the elk deeper into the private land not out of it.[/quote]

I think the last time I hunted that was in early 200'0's. I know we took a big bull in 2002. The Wolf Spring ranch hands were doing the same thing then.


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Originally Posted by smokepole
Well, they are fairly liberal with bear tags, so I'm not sure bears are to blame.


Yes, but without the use of bait and hounds, I doubt that really very many are killed and there are lots of complaints around urban areas, since they banned those types of hunting. I wonder if they even do much population study on the bears?


You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
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I must be blessed then, as I have a 6 week season, and see Elk here on the ranch most every week. So, no shortage of animals, long sesson, and easy hunting. Makes for plenty of meat every year.


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