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We ran a really good thread last year on down puffy jackets, but now I have a new question. I can get the Columbia, Patagonia and North Face puffy's in town locally and they seem to be priced pretty much the same as the thinner 800 fill Montbell and Kuiu mail order puffy jackets. I'm way past the point of sleeping out under the stars needing the lightest jacket in my backpack, so I guess the question is does 6 ounces of 500 fill down in a North Face equal 4.2 ounces of 800 fill down in a Montbell or Kuiu? Being able to try the thing on in a local store seems like kind of an advantage. Thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.


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I am not a down expert, but ultimately isn't warmth directly correlated to loft, when comparing down head to head? So many other factors at play in terms of shell construction, but if comparing only the down ...


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I would say, yes, quality counts in down fill. Ounce for ounce, feathers do not have anywhere near the efficiency of down.

You are making a leap of faith when accepting a labels claims regarding down quality as most labels contract out their work to offshore manufacturers. Retailers who build their own product, like Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering, can and do control their raw materials to a degree not possible when your label does not have total control over it's manufacturing.

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Originally Posted by Windfall
so I guess the question is does 6 ounces of 500 fill down in a North Face equal 4.2 ounces of 800 fill down in a Montbell or Kuiu?


Yes (quality being essentially equal, and provided each is allowed to loft to equal thickness).

Higher lofting down primarily provides two things...

1). The same warmth (loft) for less weight.
2). Smaller compressed sized (ie, in a stuff sack).



Take a sleeping bag as an example... the classic mummy bag is one with a 6" loft / 15* +/- temp rating:

A Western Mountaineering Versalite (6" loft) uses 20 oz's of 800 ci down... 800 x 20 = 16,000 ci

The same bag, with 550 ci down will require 29 oz's of down. 550 x 29 = 16,000 ci.

Warmth will be the same. Just more weight and bulk with 550 ci down fill.



Finally, some make the argument that 800 ci lofting down will last longer than 550 ci down... if both are of high quality, I'm doubtful of that argument.



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Brad is correct but what I have found is that with the lower fill power down you are getting more feathers. I think the down lasts longer than the feathers. Somewhere around 600-650 and lower you are getting a feather mix and less loft. Initial warmth as per Brads equation will be the same. With your numbers you would have 3,000 and 3,360 ci. respectively so not equal. I have been happy with 6-650 fill items but 500 or less is better for pillows or duvets where the less compaction is an advantage.


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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by Windfall
so I guess the question is does 6 ounces of 500 fill down in a North Face equal 4.2 ounces of 800 fill down in a Montbell or Kuiu?


Yes (quality being essentially equal, and provided each is allowed to loft to equal thickness).

Higher lofting down primarily provides two things...

1). The same warmth (loft) for less weight.
2). Smaller compressed sized (ie, in a stuff sack).



Take a sleeping bag as an example... the classic mummy bag is one with a 6" loft / 15* +/- temp rating:

A Western Mountaineering Versalite (6" loft) uses 20 oz's of 800 ci down... 800 x 20 = 16,000 ci

The same bag, with 550 ci down will require 29 oz's of down. 550 x 29 = 16,000 ci.

Warmth will be the same. Just more weight and bulk with 550 ci down fill.



Finally, some make the argument that 800 ci lofting down will last longer than 550 ci down... if both are of high quality, I'm doubtful of that argument.


This. HIgher loft gets the same insulation value as a greater quantity of lower loft. A low loft jacket might take 3oz for a certain degree rating while a higher loft can do it with 2oz. You pay more for higher loft but what you get for the money is less weight and it'll compress smaller.

If you're going for ultra light, you want a higher loft. If you just want warmth but won't be hauling it in a backpack very far, you'll get more for your money with a lower loft.


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Manufacturers seem to be manipulating the temp ratings, loft and fill ratings on sleeping bags.

Mine shows 850 down fill, but current version of same model show 800 down fill. Probably cheaper to fill the bag with less expensive fill to a higher loft than to access/purchase a dependable source of the most premium down fills. Even their "-40F rated" bag is filling with 800 down, but to a much higher loft AND weight. Manufacturers use the term "sustainability" prominently for urban snowflake sensibilities. Couple of years ago they were offering "900 down" for their expedition bags.

My "rating" on bag indicates -33.3F (Extreme), 6 deg F (Lower Limit) and 18.8F (Female - Comfort)...have used it in comfort at a measured -10F in a single wall alpine tent and ThermoRest All Season air mattress with fitted mattress sheet. The ORIGINAL advertising gave my two year old bag a "-20F" rating. Newest version states "...for mountaineers and backpackers encountering conditions down to 0 deg Fahrenheit."

Use your best judgement...


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What Brad said.
I know I still have a couple original Marmot 550 pieces of gear that are as warm as they were when I bought them in the late 1970’s.
Not real compact but some of that is due to the burly shell material.
550 used to be the Gold standard for down loft.


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I'm thinking that most of the people shopping for a puffy over at Dicks don't know the first thing about ci down loft numbers. I'm sure that they figure that heavier and thicker must mean warmer. Lots of years ago I bought a puffy at the Berlington Coat Factory and when the seams broke, the "down" sure resembled chicken feathers. Heck, if you Google it even chickens have down feathers and the chicken industry is a whole lot more vibrant than the northern European duck and goose feather industry. You likely get what you pay for in the long run. I'm glad that I've invested in better puffy jackets and parkas since my Berlington outlet days.


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800 down is much better than 500. I have a Montbell bag and 2 Western Mountaineering bags. My wife has a Feathered Friends bag. All are very true to temperature rating. Both my kids have Western Mountaineering bags. I believe Western Mountaineering bags are the best.

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