Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting 308 vs 30-06 vs 300wm - theoretical accuracy

This article is probably less "theoretical accuracy" and more empirical accuracy;
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/11/match-results-for-308-vs-30-06-surprising-findings/

German is a VERY good shooter and a good guy, but I feel like his work was methodologically flawed...yet it is interesting food for thought.

...btw, I'd like to know who your brother is;

[quote=DarlaG]COElkChaser,

Personally, as a former/long-serving US Army Rangemaster & elder brother of a world-class competitive shooter, I don't think that one of those three calibers is better at long range than the other two. There is just too great deal of the difference among. firearms, shooters, componentss & a host of other factors to say which round is BEST
All three, in the hands of a great shooter, will do the job, out well beyond 1,000M.

>yes your very right the greatest sniper in the world used a 308 win . most of the time in just a Winchester varmint rifle but he did change the barrel out to a match grade 308 barrel his name Carlos Hathcock. as one of my friends i hunt with said and he would know because he was a Ranger sniper for 8 years with many more skills too, this ranger told me Carlos Hathcock was the greatest sniper ever in the world will ever know or read about and he just used the lowly 308 Winchester, but carlos did use the 50 for his longest kill shot.

the barrel is most important. I love the 30-06. nothing better than shooting a Krieger barrel against 6.5 creedmore with a factory barrel.

pete53,

Fwiw, I was once shared a house in Triangle, VA with Gunnery SGT Fred Shue (USMC, retired), who was also (then a noted) sniper of the RVN War. - Fred introduced me to Gunny Hathcock, during a visit to Quantico Marine Base in 1988.
(I was honored to have gotten to meet the real man, who was/IS a legend of the USMC.)

My actual point in my post # 13501939 was that there are simply TOO many variables (that likely cannot be duplicated in REAL LIFE) to state which caliber is INHERENTLY superior to the other two cartridges/rifles.

I would happily "sit still" to listen to any competent shooter who can explain to me HOW the INHERENT SUPERIORITY of any cartridge could be demonstrated "in the field", even using target rifles of the same make & with essentially identical match cartridges.

yours, tex

He chose that with all the other options available? Laughing
The 70 would have been in 30’06, 308 was a 700..

If I remember his quote correctly “ I liked one about as much as the other”.

rosco1,

Btw, our Military Police Hostage Rescue personnel (Official policy forbids them being called "snipers".) can CHOOSE most any rifle that the DoD owns. = When I retired from AD, most of our Hostage Rescue teams used National Match M1 Garand rifles in 7.62x51 NATO or Remington Model 700 "target-grade" commercial-buy rifles with "range-finder scope".

Hostage Rescue personnel MUST be extremely accurate, if/when they fire a single round, as INNOCENT lives depend on their being ACCURATE & "taking out" the hostage-taker.

yours, tex

don't be fooled, the 308 is required in palma matches. if the 30-06 was allowed it would dominate.

roninflag,

Be NOT deceived, that requirement for the Palmas has ZILCH to do with the accuracy of the old-school .30-06.

yours, tex

A .308 is everything a .30-06 is and Less!

Filaman,

TRUE As the "old-school" .300SAV is too. = My "early 20th Century .30-06 clone" reloads are KILLERS at the same ranges as M2 Ball or 7.62x51 NATO is.

yours, tex

I promised myself I had said all I was gonna on this thread, but there are some errors I think need correcting;

By all accounts, Carlos Hathcock shot an M70 in 30-06 and M72 Match Ammo for the majority of his tours. There were three American snipers credited with more kills than Hathcock in Vietnam, and they shot 30-06's and 308's. Their choices (nor Hathcock's) were not relevant to this discussion because they had none. They just shot what they were issued.



That is not true. A 308 is barely supersonic at 1000 yards. There's been considerable work to extend the range of the 308 including tungsten core bullets, and ultra low drag bullets so sharp that the tips could literally draw blood. Unless "do the job" is hit the broad side of a barn, the 308 is gassed a bit beyond 1k.

FWIW, about a decade ago, the military chose to go with an improved Win Mag over the 338 Lapua Mag. This Win Mag loading uses heavier bullets than the A191 loading previously used for their long range sniper rifles and extends the effective range considerably.

DarlaG, I'd still like to know who your brother is... I know a few of these "world class" competitors...I might even know him
and since you sound like you shot competitively at some point, you might remember this bit; not long ago, the Secret Service Rifle team was unbeatable in Long Range Rifle competition. They shot Win Mags. I saw them catching zeroes with their "business rifles" not long after, and those were Win Mags as well.

No one round is best for all purposes. As the range changes, the factors that are important also change. At close to mid range, the 308's lower recoil is easier to shoot well. ...and it may be the theoretically most accurate. As the range extends and environmentals become more important, the two bigger cartridges ability to throw bigger pills become an advantage.

Quit trying to be rational Chris.

For those that DON'T KNOW.....the 308 Winchester is very accurate out to 1200 yards and beyond! With a 155 gr. Sierra Palma bullet ahead of 46.5 grains of Varget and a 30" barrel it leaves the muzzle at 3000 fps and is clicking along at slightly over 1216 fps at 1000 yards! The Brits shoot 1200 yard match events quite frequently and the cartridge does quite well!

I was just about to ask you about MPHRP protocol...Uncanny

But back on the subject I was discussing, what you think The Vietnam era guys would say if presented a smart range finder along with an ATACR mounted on a PRC or 338 Norma?

You suppose they’d say fug that gimme the pre’64 ‘06 with that 4ft unertl that I have a 300 meter over/under off the strata wires 500ish meter zero, that I have to give my best wild ass guess as to where everything falls into place.. then I have to long cock the scope mounts back into battery every shot,because that bastards fire?!

Read that slowly then re read it until you understand..but you won’t because you can’t..

Read what they wrote dummy, even the best in that era called it a wild ass guess, based on thousands of rounds fired.. wonder what would happen if they were told they could take two major variables out of the equation right at the start? Probably would’ve paid no attention to stuff that actually matters so’s not to deprive you of nostalgia 50 Years later right? Nope let’s long cock that unertl !?

This stuff is retarded to even debate, but here we are.. 24 hr tradition I guess to have to spoon feed grown men their mush..

maybe throw in some CRF tidbits about having to feed rounds while being upside down to get the real gurus all horned up? Oh what ?they never penned even a single [bleep] word on CRF vs PRF? Say it isn’t so!!

If only those dummy’s had hunted Africa with the legends maybe they’d understand? Funny [bleep] that no doubt sails right over your head.

If you u actually know what they had to work with and better yet actually started out using the same principles like I did in the early 90’s (preLRF)compared to what we have now you’d have to be some kind of special to even bring it up for debate.. they had what they had

Now if your argument is those Vietnam era guys had their [bleep] together with what they had to work with, then yes, yes they did.. did they have more talent than modern military snipers? Probably not, they just perfected what they had to work with, same as today’s snipers do with what they have to work with. That’s why [bleep] on the battlefield is more affective across the board, snipers included. Not really that hard to grasp if we think about it, is it??

Hathcock, Mawhinny and many others had instininctive talent that would have been even more impressive with more intuitive shooting systems, I bet they’d look at modern systems in awe and say that’s Cheeting and would immediately jump on board, because I bet they gave two [bleep] about nostalgia.. obviously


Idiotic to even draw the comparison, but nice that you tried, even bringing “modern” swat tactics into it.

if I’m a hostage I hope what you’ve described isn’t reality... JFC just send my nephew with the CTR please.

Everything in the DOD at their disposal so you say, and they choose a garand or a 700 with “range finding scope” for one shot precision? No kidding? Lol jfc do you read what you write?

Should be working at the mall, not hostage situations.

Do you recommend leaches for cataract patients? Or have they come up with something better in the last 100 years?

“ awe hell we could cure you with these new fangled steroids, but fug that lets give the leeches a go”

saddle me with a 30” barrel, with a cartridge that’s about stumbling over itself at 800 yards vs one with a 20” barrel that I don’t have to worry about such bs until 1500 yards, in a platform that weighs pounds less, even substantially less per 100 rounds...

makes perfect sense as far as government work goes..

Sharpsman, I'm going to defer to your greater experience in this as a Palma shooter. You've put more rounds downrange with a 308 at 1K than I ever will (I don't have Palma aspirations). I'd only heard occasional stories of the Bisley 1200 yard line. Please help me fill in some blanks in my mind on the Stickledown 1200 yard matches; How big is the V-bull? Are the Sierra 2155's getting through the transonic zone better than the 168's did....or are they somehow arriving supersonic? What is a typical winning score at 1200? Does a Warner #1 have enough elevation to get to 1200?

Folks, Sharpsman is one of only a handful of actual high level Long Range competitive shooters I've seen on this board. I might not agree with everything he says, but he's done a few things in his career.

rosco1,

Ive been retired for > 13 years & have NO knowledge of what the HR teams use NOW. = I would presume something more modern/better than what they used when I was on AD.
(The Army doesn't even wear the same uniforms as what were worn when I retired, other than "Dress Blues".)

I will guess that a marksman, who can hit a US Quarter every time with a scoped Model 700 rifle at 200M, can likely use ANY "target grade rifle" for head-shots successfully,

yours, tex

Go here:

http://www.nrcofs.org/MatchRifle.html

The Warner sight will get to 1200 OK! The 2155 Sierra Palma bullet will work at 1200 but oft times a heavier bullet is used! The Sierra 175 gr. should work just fine!

rosco1

If this is 'stumbling'.....I'll take it all day long!! Ten rounds fired from 900 yards that I could cover with the knuckles of my fist! And this....isn't a first time!

308 Win/Remington M700 factory barrel/action by .com/photos/61286670N08/]Sharps Man, on [bleep]