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I used to drop the hammer on an empty chamber when storing or otherwise handling an unloaded AR.

Years back ringworm called me out for not having the selector in the safe position in a hunting photo.

This caused me to reevaluate my gun handling and now I never drop the hammer and always engage the safety.

I think is a better way to safely handle the AR platform.

Over on AR15.com we have had a few spirited discussion.

Thoughts?


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always have saftey off unless there is one in the pipe

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Originally Posted by gemby58
always have saftey off unless there is one in the pipe



Rule # 1 says we should treat all guns as if loaded.

Just sayin.


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Stick an ECI in it & call it good. There is no question of the gun's condition with an ECI.

I'm philosophically against habitually dropping the hammer on an "empty" weapon, other than purposely dry firing. Too much of a chance that one time it will be loaded.

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We point the tubes in the correct direction. Have zero idea what I'd find in the house or safes. I assume all are loaded and ready to fire.

More than likely safety on but I just have no clue.

Safe handling negates the rest of the issues and always has.

My nephew just griped at me for Glock 20 wife and I are shooting pigs and deer with the last few years... no safety ya know... I says what about your smith 38, your smith 357, your 329PD..... Some folks take longer to learn than others. I figure he'll be fine by 40...

For some reason though on bolts, I pull the round when done in the stand, or etc... and close the bolt dropping the pin and have an empty chamber. Not sure why I'm habituated to that with bolt guns. I tend to leave all ARs not in the safe loaded to the gills.


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I store them unloaded and safety on.


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All my guns are stored empty and safety on, except my CCW, and my home defense shotgun (loaded buck, slug, buck, slug, buck....) wink


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I've never owned an AR. All my guns I drop the hammer at the last safe place I'm at before storing.


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Originally Posted by Youper
I've never owned an AR. All my guns I drop the hammer at the last safe place I'm at before storing.

Thats how i do it. Just what i was taught. Grandad thought it would fatigue the spring. However, some say it doesn't hurt them at all. Growing up with a cock on closing sporterized m1917 with a heavy spring, made me think grandad was probably right with that one. I wont argue one way or the other and feel it should be left up to the individual.


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Safety on, they're all stored/put up loaded, my AR's are farm/truck and house guns.


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Chamber empty, magazine full, hammer down, safety off (it has to be because the safety won't engage if the hammer is down) dust cover closed. No fumbling with trying to acquire the safety and turn it off after charging the chamber.

Run the charging handle and you're ready to engage. If the threat is not imminent, engage the safety.

For those who say that they can disengage the safety as fast as the above-mentioned practice. Try doing it while someone is shooting at you. It does make a difference.

It's the way I was taught to fight with the Remington 870 and the AR-15/M-16. It works.

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I've always kept my AR's stored with safety on but empty chamber.

I did start rethinking a few things after watching the Frank Proctor video on mag reloads you posted though. (Safety on when you come off target for whatever reason.)

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Empty chamber,hammer uncocked...so selector is defaulted to where it MUST be...............


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if the safety is on my gun, this means it has a round in the chamber, if the safety is off this means I have dropped the hammer on an empty chamber. Many of mine have the safety on and a round in the chamber, magazine in the box all the time, so by feel I know the status of the gun, all this safety on empty chamber is silly to me and I am not going to try and relearn something I have been doing by instinct for 30 or more years. If the trigger is back, safety on, there is a round in the chamber.


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Originally Posted by APDDSN0864
Chamber empty, magazine full, hammer down, safety off (it has to be because the safety won't engage if the hammer is down) dust cover closed. No fumbling with trying to acquire the safety and turn it off after charging the chamber.

Run the charging handle and you're ready to engage. If the threat is not imminent, engage the safety.

For those who say that they can disengage the safety as fast as the above-mentioned practice. Try doing it while someone is shooting at you. It does make a difference.

It's the way I was taught to fight with the Remington 870 and the AR-15/M-16. It works.

Ed


Good post.


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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When I touch a rifle,I immediately look to roll a safety and if the selector moves...I'm wary.

If the selector doesn't move,"intentions" are moot and mechanics etched.

Hint...................


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Originally Posted by APDDSN0864
Chamber empty, magazine full, hammer down, safety off (it has to be because the safety won't engage if the hammer is down) dust cover closed. No fumbling with trying to acquire the safety and turn it off after charging the chamber.

Run the charging handle and you're ready to engage. If the threat is not imminent, engage the safety.

For those who say that they can disengage the safety as fast as the above-mentioned practice. Try doing it while someone is shooting at you. It does make a difference.

It's the way I was taught to fight with the Remington 870 and the AR-15/M-16. It works.

Ed


Current best practices in the US military have changed.

The Marine Corps has enshrined the use of the safety into Rule #4 and the most recent version of the Army's TC 3-22.9 requires the safety to be engaged unless actually firing.


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Originally Posted by APDDSN0864

For those who say that they can disengage the safety as fast as the above-mentioned practice. Try doing it while someone is shooting at you. It does make a difference.

Ed



No, it does not. Being shot at is nothing but an emotional response. Using the safety is nothing but a habitual action. Someone that believes it takes longer to flip the safety than it does to bring the rifle up to aim at a target does not have the skill level to be talking about either.

Gunhandling is not about what happens when we are present and in the moment. It is for when we are thinking of everything else besides the gun. If you are ever going to use the safety, use it every time that you are not aimed at a target, finger on trigger. Cheek comes off of the stock- finger straight, safety on.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Gunhandling is not about what happens when we are present and in the moment. It is for when we are thinking of everything else besides the gun. If you are ever going to use the safety, use it every time that you are not aimed at a target, finger on trigger. Cheek comes off of the stock- finger straight, safety on.


this


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that is why I consistently do the same thing and will never change. I am not going to start leaving my hammer back on an empty chamber because someone says "this is the new best way keep your safety on and your nickers dry" forget it. Feel free to post the bestest post in the whole world and laud each other over its wondercality. safety off nothing in the chamber, safety on the gun is ready to fire.


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Safe is never not safe.

NOTHING is more safe,than an empty chamber.

Hint...............


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Originally Posted by Big Stick
Safe is never not safe.

NOTHING is more safe,than an empty chamber.

Hint...............


Whether the chamber is empty or full we still have Rule #1.

Statically, On Safe is much safer than Off Safe.


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Unit SOP applies to field and guard duty carry. But for armorer duty, all rifles in racks for storage were hammer down after chamber cleared, function check performed, ejection port cover closed, no magazine.

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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Big Stick
Safe is never not safe.

NOTHING is more safe,than an empty chamber.

Hint...............


Whether the chamber is empty or full we still have Rule #1.

Statically, On Safe is much safer than Off Safe.


Visibly...NOBODY can discern chamber condition.

Mechanically,it's a breeze to get a read on the hammer.

Hint................


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
that is why I consistently do the same thing and will never change. I am not going to start leaving my hammer back on an empty chamber because someone says "this is the new best way keep your safety on and your nickers dry" forget it. Feel free to post the bestest post in the whole world and laud each other over its wondercality. safety off nothing in the chamber, safety on the gun is ready to fire.



?

Did someone tell you that you have to do something? I addressed what another posted. I don’t care what you do. There are places that have techniques and practices in place due to seeing relatively large numbers of skilled users utilize different techniques, and seeing issues that happen over and over.

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A cocked hammer isn't a fhuqking '"technique".

"Littlle" things matter.

Hint........................


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Safety off.
Chamber empty.
Dust cover closed.
Hammer down. (Usually)
Have been known to forget and leave the bolt locked.
But that doesn't change the,
insert mag and pull charging handle drill. (Does make it rough though)


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safety off on empty chamber

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Safety off. Nothing loaded in the chamber.

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I don't store my AR. It's ready for HD at all times; that's it's job. Magazine full, hammer cocked,safety off, bolt closed on an empty chamber. Muzzle down for grip grab. Put into action or the case for the range, it all happens at the low ready. It's too easy with an AR staged muzzle up to grab it, and point it at your own body.

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This is a training issue. I am a huge proponent of safeties on until your rifle is oriented towards your target. There is no delay by disengaging the safety. It takes way more time to make the decision to shoot than presenting the gun. During presentation the safety comes off. There is no down side to the mechanical safety

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well I am convinced! Will also start carrying my CCW without a round in the chamber and walking to my deer stands with an empty chamber! Real wisdom here! I just have to wonder what the engineers were thinking when they designed such a stupid trigger system that would not go to safety when the hammer was down?? Crazy..

also I almost stepped on this guy Sunday afternoon in GA, kind of late for a timber rattler but there he was. Thank the Lord my Roberts had a round in the chamber and I did not have to move to much except just point and click. yes on the training issue, I am trained and consistent in doing things a certain way.

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Originally Posted by Big Stick
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Big Stick
Safe is never not safe.
NOTHING is more safe,than an empty chamber.
Hint...............

Whether the chamber is empty or full we still have Rule #1.

Statically, On Safe is much safer than Off Safe.
Visibly...NOBODY can discern chamber condition.

Mechanically,it's a breeze to get a read on the hammer.
Hint................


Chamber empty or full does not change anything in our gun handling if we are following Rule #1.

If the selector is on safe I am more likely to press check to verify a loaded chamber than an empty chamber.


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Last edited by APDDSN0864; 12/04/18. Reason: Duplicate post

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by APDDSN0864

For those who say that they can disengage the safety as fast as the above-mentioned practice. Try doing it while someone is shooting at you. It does make a difference.

Ed



No, it does not. Being shot at is nothing but an emotional response. Using the safety is nothing but a habitual action. Someone that believes it takes longer to flip the safety than it does to bring the rifle up to aim at a target does not have the skill level to be talking about either.

Gunhandling is not about what happens when we are present and in the moment. It is for when we are thinking of everything else besides the gun. If you are ever going to use the safety, use it every time that you are not aimed at a target, finger on trigger. Cheek comes off of the stock- finger straight, safety on. You left out slightly lowering the muzzle, giving a full view to better assess the situation.


As to how much time it takes to flip the safety vs. raising the rifle to acquire the target, you are absolutely right. The same as finger off the trigger until you have identified the threat, made the decision to engage, and have acquired a sight picture..
It is also a function of training to the point of unconscious competence.
That level of competence only comes with thousands of repetitions, and having learned how to get past the emotional response. For the most part, most of the people here do not have that level of experience.
I also know that almost anyone can learn how to do it.

I do have the skill level brought on by experience to talk about it. If you care to PM me, I'll be glad to share my background.

Ed


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Step one of clearing the M16/M4 rifle is to attempt to place the weapon on SAFE. ALWAYS!
Whatever happens during that step should speak volumes.


"Press check" an AR platform?

Hammer down on a cleared chamber is the statistically proven safest storage procedure proven by the US Gov't.
It is built into the Manual of Arms, and follows every Inspection Arms (Ready, Order, Arms) and Function Check.
A trigger can NOT be tripped with the hammer down.

Safety "On SAFE" means the hammer is cocked. NOTHING gets storage with a cocked hammer. Nothing.


Carry hot? Chamber hot, safety ON.

Carry cleared, Magazine or no magazine, chamber clear, hammer down.


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Originally Posted by WTM45
Step one of clearing the M16/M4 rifle is to attempt to place the weapon on SAFE. ALWAYS!
Whatever happens during that step should speak volumes.


"Press check" an AR platform?

Hammer down on a cleared chamber is the statistically proven safest storage procedure proven by the US Gov't.
It is built into the Manual of Arms, and follows every Inspection Arms (Ready, Order, Arms) and Function Check.
A trigger can NOT be tripped with the hammer down.

Safety "On SAFE" means the hammer is cocked. NOTHING gets storage with a cocked hammer. Nothing.


Carry hot? Chamber hot, safety ON.

Carry cleared, Magazine or no magazine, chamber clear, hammer down.





Hammer down isn’t statistically proven for anything. The US Military as a whole has the highest instances of ND’s per capita than any other group I’ve ever been around. It’s happens all the time.



As for the rest of your post.... it’s interesting to note, that the places (very few) in the military where having an ND will get you relieved and kicked out all run safety on. You don’t see I rifle hardly ever- even in storage without a safety engaged. If an armorer for whatever reason dropped the hammer to store it, the first things that happens when I guy checks it out is to attempt to put it on safe, lock the bolt to the rear, engage safety, check chamber.

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The only trust worthy safety is an open action. Control where the muzzle is pointed and double or triple all safety procedures and everything should be fine. I store with no ammunition in the firearm, the rest is academic.

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Just checked the two that I keep around for things that go bump in the night. As I thought, both had a full magazine, the chamber empty, hammer down, safety not engaged.
I have followed that procedure for some 40 years now. It works for me. I am not likely to change.


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus


Hammer down isn’t statistically proven for anything.


Sure it is.
Never has there been a ND/AD when the hammer was down on an empty chamber.
It is impossible.

Whatever current unit SOP is in their arms room is beyond my knowledge, as my experience ended quite a few years ago. But there is NO arguing with the FM regarding the Manual of Arms, Inspection Arms, Order Arms, Carry Arms, Function Check and where the hammer is after those steps are performed BY THE NUMBERS.


Maybe it is not part of Basic, Advanced or the NCO Academy anymore, but it dang sure was in my day.

Things do change, not always for the better. Safety is still an individual mandate.

Thanks for your service to our country!

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Originally Posted by husqvarna
The only trust worthy safety is an open action. Control where the muzzle is pointed and double or triple all safety procedures and everything should be fine. I store with no ammunition in the firearm, the rest is academic.

Only step beyond that is a chamber flag with BCG resting against it.

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Originally Posted by WTM45

Never has there been a ND/AD when the hammer was down on an empty chamber.
It is impossible.

Of course not, all the NDs happen when the hammer is dropped!


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WTM45 You got me on the flag, but what does BCG stand for; I know I'm showing my ignorance, but I'm curious.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by WTM45

Never has there been a ND/AD when the hammer was down on an empty chamber.
It is impossible.

Of course not, all the NDs happen when the hammer is dropped!


Which brings us to clearing barrels.

Dropping the hammer brings the potential for a loud noise and seems an unnecessary risk.

Originally Posted by WTM45
Originally Posted by husqvarna
The only trust worthy safety is an open action. Control where the muzzle is pointed and double or triple all safety procedures and everything should be fine. I store with no ammunition in the firearm, the rest is academic.

Only step beyond that is a chamber flag with BCG resting against it.


ECIs are a good plan in may situations and the selector should be on safe when on is in the chamber.


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Which brings us to clearing barrels.

Dropping the hammer brings the potential for a loud noise and seems an unnecessary risk.




Not if the operator follows the proper clearance procedures, Function Check or Inspection Arms/Ready, Order Arms moves BY THE NUMBERS.

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Originally Posted by husqvarna
WTM45 You got me on the flag, but what does BCG stand for; I know I'm showing my ignorance, but I'm curious.


BCG is the bolt carrier group.

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Originally Posted by husqvarna
The only trust worthy safety is an open action. Control where the muzzle is pointed and double or triple all safety procedures and everything should be fine. I store with no ammunition in the firearm, the rest is academic.


That is EXACTLY how a weapon is turned in to the arms room, open chamber, bolt locked to the rear, handed to the armorer butt first.

The armorer then drops the BCG and hammer after verifying a clear chamber, closing the ejection port cover, NO MAGAZINE, leaving selector in SEMI and then placing the rifle in the M12 rack.


Safe and proper storage.

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Originally Posted by WTM45
Originally Posted by husqvarna
The only trust worthy safety is an open action. Control where the muzzle is pointed and double or triple all safety procedures and everything should be fine. I store with no ammunition in the firearm, the rest is academic.


That is EXACTLY how a weapon is turned in to the arms room, open chamber, bolt locked to the rear, handed to the armorer butt first.

The armorer then drops the BCG and hammer after verifying a clear chamber, closing the ejection port cover, NO MAGAZINE, leaving selector in SEMI and then placing the rifle in the M12 rack.


Safe and proper storage.



Hammer won't be dropped without the muzzle being stuffed in a clearing barrel.

I don't have a clearing barrel.

What now? shocked


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by WTM45
Originally Posted by husqvarna
The only trust worthy safety is an open action. Control where the muzzle is pointed and double or triple all safety procedures and everything should be fine. I store with no ammunition in the firearm, the rest is academic.


That is EXACTLY how a weapon is turned in to the arms room, open chamber, bolt locked to the rear, handed to the armorer butt first.

The armorer then drops the BCG and hammer after verifying a clear chamber, closing the ejection port cover, NO MAGAZINE, leaving selector in SEMI and then placing the rifle in the M12 rack.


Safe and proper storage.



Hammer won't be dropped without the muzzle being stuffed in a clearing barrel.

I don't have a clearing barrel.

What now? shocked


Build one. Whatever floats your boat. It's up to you.

There were no clearing barrels inside the arms rooms I managed. None.

Hammers got dropped all the time on parade fields, parking lots, in unit formations, in closed ranks and in the damn hallway while performing inspection arms, clearance drills and function checks. Clearing barrels were only required in specific locations and conditions. Muzzle discipline is part of performing by the numbers.

Dropping the hammer with the upper and lower separated is to be frowned upon. Some of us know why. wink


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Originally Posted by WTM45
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by WTM45
Originally Posted by husqvarna
The only trust worthy safety is an open action. Control where the muzzle is pointed and double or triple all safety procedures and everything should be fine. I store with no ammunition in the firearm, the rest is academic.
That is EXACTLY how a weapon is turned in to the arms room, open chamber, bolt locked to the rear, handed to the armorer butt first.

The armorer then drops the BCG and hammer after verifying a clear chamber, closing the ejection port cover, NO MAGAZINE, leaving selector in SEMI and then placing the rifle in the M12 rack.

Safe and proper storage.



Hammer won't be dropped without the muzzle being stuffed in a clearing barrel.

I don't have a clearing barrel.

What now? shocked


Build one. Whatever floats your boat. It's up to you.

There were no clearing barrels inside the arms rooms I managed. None.

Hammers got dropped all the time on parade fields, parking lots, in unit formations, in closed ranks and in the damn hallway while performing inspection arms, clearance drills and function checks. Clearing barrels were only required in specific locations and conditions. Muzzle discipline is part of performing by the numbers.

Dropping the hammer with the upper and lower separated is to be frowned upon. Some of us know why. wink


Fair Point but I am pretty sure the selector is in the safe position when turned in..

I just decided to quit pulling the trigger to see if there was a round in the chamber and instead decided to keep the selector on Safe.

I try to follow Rule #1 anyway and treat all guns as loaded so it was a natural progression in safe gunhandling.

Last edited by JohnBurns; 12/04/18.

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If you carry a hot gun, and if you use the safety ever- use the safety always. Do not have one set gunhandling for when it’s loaded, one for when it’s unloaded, and one set for when it’s stored.

For me/where I am- the trigger does not get pulled unless I’m aiming at target, and before my face breaks cheek-weld, the safety goes back on. If it can’t go back on, it is fixed, and then immediately the safety is applied.


Just because the military does something, does not mean it’s correct. Point in fact, the military breeds mediocrity. I question anything the military does, as it’s almost never done because that’s the best way.


Empty guns, clearing barrels, sometime use of the safety and sometimes not, and guys habitually dropping the hammer without wanting to fire (dry or live) are the greatest cause of ND’s in the military.

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WOW this all gets a little convoluted for me..........in the sport of benchrest you never even have your bolt close to your rifle rendering it nothing more than a pipe......the ultimate safety.

Not that simple with AR's , I always store mine with hammer dropped, no magazine. First thing when I pick it up pull bolt back visually and physically inspect chamber,
Never use the safety unless round in chamber and I am on the move.

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Despite a few getting emotionally invested... everyone is free to do as they please, however for those on the sidelines-



Dropping the hammer gets us nothing other than getting in the habit of pulling a trigger when you don’t mean to fire. It’s an administrative action. Eventually it leads to a distracted action. I don’t care who you are- at some point you are going to unload or handle a firearm while distracted. When part of your administrative procedures is to arbitrarily pull the trigger: you’ve just set yourself up for an ND. And it was for no reason. There is no mechanical or safety reason to arbitrarily pull the trigger. You have to (should) clear it/check condition to handle it, so instead of pulling a trigger for no reason- apply the safety and give yourself one more layer to add some margin of error built in.




If you ever have loaded firearms around you, do yourself a favor and add redundancies to save yourself from a “bang” when you wanted a “click”. Or don’t.

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Originally Posted by boatanchor

Not that simple with AR's , I always store mine with hammer dropped, no magazine. First thing when I pick it up pull bolt back visually and physically inspect chamber,
Never use the safety unless round in chamber and I am on the move.



Now the problem is use of the safety is NOT a part of your sub-conscious gunhandling. It is a conscious act, and done enough times with enough stress and/or distraction there will be a time where you forget, and now you are running around with a rifle that is loaded and off safe.


No one is immune to this.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
If you carry a hot gun, and if you use the safety ever- use the safety always. Do not have one set gunhandling for when it’s loaded, one for when it’s unloaded, and one set for when it’s stored.

For me/where I am- the trigger does not get pulled unless I’m aiming at target, and before my face breaks cheek-weld, the safety goes back on. If it can’t go back on, it is fixed, and then immediately the safety is applied.


Just because the military does something, does not mean it’s correct. Point in fact, the military breeds mediocrity. I question anything the military does, as it’s almost never done because that’s the best way.


Empty guns, clearing barrels, sometime use of the safety and sometimes not, and guys habitually dropping the hammer without wanting to fire (dry or live) are the greatest cause of ND’s in the military.


Lots of good in this post but I am going to snip to save some time.

Originally Posted by Formidilosus
If you carry a hot gun, and if you use the safety ever- use the safety always. Do not have one set gunhandling for when it’s loaded, one for when it’s unloaded, and one set for when it’s stored.


Just this last week watched an experienced outfitter/guide muff a shot with a gun he knew was hot because he forgot to disengage the safety.

If you don't always engage the safety you will not always disengage the safety under stress.

When shooting sporting clays with friends is always worth a good laugh to engage the safety on a buddies shotty just for the Lulz.

Missed pair. grin

Of course he gets another pair as I am a dickhead and that is just a game.


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Hot guns do not get put in storage. Ever.
They do not get stacked.
They do not get racked.


Pulling a trigger and dropping the hammer are done for more than just an administrative step, they are an integral part of determining if the rifle is functioning correctly. BY THE NUMBERS means no step is missed.
It is by far NOT done just to see if the chamber is clear. That was done visually.
And step one is attempt to place the rifle on SAFE.






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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
If you carry a hot gun, and if you use the safety ever- use the safety always. Do not have one set gunhandling for when it’s loaded, one for when it’s unloaded, and one set for when it’s stored.

Empty guns, clearing barrels, sometime use of the safety and sometimes not, and guys habitually dropping the hammer without wanting to fire (dry or live) are the greatest cause of ND’s in the military.


Law Enforcement as well.

There are cops who hate to qualify (a lot of them, actually), because of their firearm skills level, including gun handling. Others just do the minimum to get by. The only intensive firearms training they get is during the academy unless they're part of a special unit, and they train, train, and train some more.

If you store your AR as I, and some others here do, the first thing you do upon picking it up is run the charging handle and put the safety on. THEN you do the other things, not before. Muzzle and trigger finger discipline are paramount.
If you are expecting a round to have been placed in the chamber when you ran the charging handle, do a "right load/left load" check of the magazine. That will tell you immediately if you have chambered a round or not. The safety never comes off nor the trigger finger gets close to the trigger.

It's really not any different than the method you were talking about insofar as safety is concerned, and it's not one way of gun handling when it's loaded (or so one would think) versus unloaded (again, so one would think) since the first step on picking it up is to determine, without a doubt, the status of the chamber and immediately apply the safety.
When downloading for storage, or to hand the AR to another person, the FIRST thing you do is drop the magazine, lock the BCG back, LOOK and FEEL the chamber to make sure it's clear, then, and only then, with muzzle control being maintained and ejection port left open, do you hand the AR to another person.

With all of these things, irrespective of your preferred method, always do it the same way. Unconscious competence is what you are after.

Ed


"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell



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Never would have imagined this would be such a sensitive subject.

24HC members......
[Linked Image]

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No kidding, this is crazy.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
If you carry a hot gun, and if you use the safety ever- use the safety always. Do not have one set gunhandling for when it’s loaded, one for when it’s unloaded, and one set for when it’s stored.

For me/where I am- the trigger does not get pulled unless I’m aiming at target, and before my face breaks cheek-weld, the safety goes back on. If it can’t go back on, it is fixed, and then immediately the safety is applied.


Just because the military does something, does not mean it’s correct. Point in fact, the military breeds mediocrity. I question anything the military does, as it’s almost never done because that’s the best way.


Empty guns, clearing barrels, sometime use of the safety and sometimes not, and guys habitually dropping the hammer without wanting to fire (dry or live) are the greatest cause of ND’s in the military.


Lots of good in this post but I am going to snip to save some time.

Originally Posted by Formidilosus
If you carry a hot gun, and if you use the safety ever- use the safety always. Do not have one set gunhandling for when it’s loaded, one for when it’s unloaded, and one set for when it’s stored.


Just this last week watched an experienced outfitter/guide muff a shot with a gun he knew was hot because he forgot to disengage the safety.

If you don't always engage the safety you will not always disengage the safety under stress.

When shooting sporting clays with friends is always worth a good laugh to engage the safety on a buddies shotty just for the Lulz.

Missed pair. grin

Of course he gets another pair as I am a dickhead and that is just a game.


Some trap guns dont even have safeties, and for good reason. You may think it's a game to fu ck with someones gun, but i feel that type of behavior is unsafe. How someone safely stores their firearm should be left up to that individual as well. What did you do with the real John Burns?


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Despite a few getting emotionally invested... everyone is free to do as they please, however for those on the sidelines-



Dropping the hammer gets us nothing other than getting in the habit of pulling a trigger when you don’t mean to fire. It’s an administrative action. Eventually it leads to a distracted action. I don’t care who you are- at some point you are going to unload or handle a firearm while distracted. When part of your administrative procedures is to arbitrarily pull the trigger: you’ve just set yourself up for an ND. And it was for no reason. There is no mechanical or safety reason to arbitrarily pull the trigger. You have to (should) clear it/check condition to handle it, so instead of pulling a trigger for no reason- apply the safety and give yourself one more layer to add some margin of error built in.




If you ever have loaded firearms around you, do yourself a favor and add redundancies to save yourself from a “bang” when you wanted a “click”. Or don’t.



I don’t own any AR’s but this reminds me of something that happened to me probably about 15 years ago. I was Mule deer hunting with my dad, brother and brother in-law. We all left camp in different directions and I was dropping down into some big fir timbered gullies and hillsides to start stillhunting. My routine if I was hiking was to close the bolt on an empty chamber, but full magazine, and pull the trigger. Then when I got serious and started stillhunting, I would load the chamber and put the safety on.
This time when I was ready to start stillhunting, I chambered a round and instead of putting the safety on, I had a brain fart and pulled the trigger. Scared the [bleep] out of myself.
I have to be honest and admit that I still keep the chamber empty and with the firing pin down when I’m hiking, although usually by holding the trigger while closing the bolt, but maybe I should have gotten into the habit of keeping the rifle cocked and safety on with an empty chamber instead.
The only good news is after scaring the crap out of yourself, you tend to not repeat the mistake and haven’t.

Just thought I’d share the story, and this is a very interesting topic even though I’m not an AR owner,,,,,yet.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by boatanchor

Not that simple with AR's , I always store mine with hammer dropped, no magazine. First thing when I pick it up pull bolt back visually and physically inspect chamber,
Never use the safety unless round in chamber and I am on the move.



Now the problem is use of the safety is NOT a part of your sub-conscious gunhandling. It is a conscious act, and done enough times with enough stress and/or distraction there will be a time where you forget, and now you are running around with a rifle that is loaded and off safe.


I can honestly say that I have never had this happen, on the other hand I have had a few times when I have pulled the trigger on a coyote and my safety was ON

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Can anybody tell me what happens when an AR has a defective extractor, you inadvertently miss a chambered cartridge and you drop the hammer?


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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Can anybody tell me what happens when an AR has a defective extractor, you inadvertently miss a chambered cartridge and you drop the hammer?


You did not perform a correct clearance drill BY THE NUMBERS.

There is no "inadvertently" in doing something the correct way.

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Can anyone tell me of an instance where the gun fired with the safety on and finger off the trigger?

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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter

Some trap guns dont even have safeties, and for good reason. You may think it's a game to fu ck with someones gun, but i feel that type of behavior is unsafe. How someone safely stores their firearm should be left up to that individual as well. What did you do with the real John Burns?


Lighten up.

I can understand your point but the only guys who get a safety engaged are guys who don't mind.

Much like the ball and dummy drill it can help diagnosis a stopped swing or flinch.

If you are content with your safety practice then great.

I enjoy discussing safety techniques in an effort to become a better shooter. grin

Originally Posted by TWR
Can anyone tell me of an instance where the gun fired with the safety on and finger off the trigger?


Not in the AR.

Most bolt guns can not pass the Mil drop test.


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I'd rather not give my location away by racking a shell into my weapon...

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safety on, gun is hot...who has time to try to remember..well did I eject the shell or is it in this rifle "click", or was it the other one, let me take a look in the chamber, O its too dark to see, well I will just rack the slide..well shucks I just got shot by the bad man...let me see if I can get a selfie with the blood and everything to post on the fire..


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Every AR I’ve ever picked up, first thing is a chamber check then on safe, unless I’m planning on using it for immediate action.

If there is already a mag in the action, I remove the mag and do the above.

If I’m loading it, I do the above and chamber a round.

An AR can’t go off with the safety on safe. No amount of bouncing will get it to go off unless the safety is moves to fire.

So, for me at least, on safe is the preferred method for every event except actively shouldering and firing the weapon.


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I used to drop the hammer on an empty chamber when storing or otherwise handling an unloaded AR.

Years back ringworm called me out for not having the selector in the safe position in a hunting photo.

This caused me to reevaluate my gun handling and now I never drop the hammer and always engage the safety.

I think is a better way to safely handle the AR platform.

Over on AR15.com we have had a few spirited discussion.

Thoughts?


In the AF when we turned our M-16 in at the end of shift they were always cleared, trigger pulled to release the sear and left off safe of course since it cannot be put on safe in that condition.

When not stored we were required to load magazine, not put one in chamber and left off safe of course. At times when we were expecting trouble, like after 9/11 we had a round in the chamber and rifle on safe.

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The AR safety controls hammer movement. It is not a firing pin blocking/locking safety.

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You know the firing pin has about zero mass and there is no possible way for the firing pin to fire a round unless it is hit by the hammer?



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Originally Posted by David_Walter
You know the firing pin has about zero mass and there is no possible way for the firing pin to fire a round unless it is hit by the hammer?



Sir, the one thing I have learned over the years is "never to say never."
There is a reason go/no go gauges and firing pin protrusion gauges exist.

Soft primers, protruding primers, damaged ammunition, excessive wear, wrong sized (headspaced) bolts and many other things can contribute to something unintentional. Are the odds slim? I agree they are. Very slim.

The safety is not completely perfect in and of itself. It is not so failsafe it can be depended on 100% without other safety awareness and muzzle controls in place.

With so many folks building and assembling the platform now, I feel we are sharing very useful information here. Many of us have the knowledge and experience of good training and high level maintenance of our rifles. Some may believe there is no importance to the proper fit of components and proper PMCS maintenance.

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WTM45,

I agree with your sentiment, that said, i’ve never seen an AD with a AR platform where it was properly assembled and on safe.


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Strangest, hard to explain thing I ever saw was my 1SG wanted to demonstrate the potential of injury with a M200 blank round from a M16A1. Without the blank adaptor on the muzzle, he attempted to demonstrate the damage which can be done to a styrofoam coffee cup placed over the muzzle when firing the blank round. With the rifle on safe, he loaded a magazine, yanked the charging handle, dropping the bolt with the muzzle down and it fired the blank round. The rifle did not feed or chamber the next round from the magazine, nor did it eject the fired one.

I saw the selector was on safe.

He then charged the rifle with the muzzle elevated, he placed cup on muzzle, rolled the selector to fire and let it rip. Cup was quite damaged. Point well received by the troops, but he and I stepped aside and took a peek at the rifle and brass.

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OMG, still going.... always keep the muzzle in a safe direction... what more does one need


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Originally Posted by WTM45
Strangest, hard to explain thing I ever saw was my 1SG wanted to demonstrate the potential of injury with a M200 blank round from a M16A1. Without the blank adaptor on the muzzle, he attempted to demonstrate the damage which can be done to a styrofoam coffee cup placed over the muzzle when firing the blank round. With the rifle on safe, he loaded a magazine, yanked the charging handle, dropping the bolt with the muzzle down and it fired the blank round. The rifle did not feed or chamber the next round from the magazine, nor did it eject the fired one.

I saw the selector was on safe.

He then charged the rifle with the muzzle elevated, he placed cup on muzzle, rolled the selector to fire and let it rip. Cup was quite damaged. Point well received by the troops, but he and I stepped aside and took a peek at the rifle and brass.


My issued M16a1 would slamfire every single time if you dropped the bolt with the selector switch on full-auto. I've never seen one do it on safe, but I'm not saying it's impossible.

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Safe doesn't keep a free floating fire pin from moving. If tolerances are max, and or other things out of spec....


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This is another thread that indicates those capable of learning.


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Originally Posted by lvmiker
This is another thread that indicates those capable of learning.


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Originally Posted by WTM45
Strangest, hard to explain thing I ever saw was my 1SG wanted to demonstrate the potential of injury with a M200 blank round from a M16A1. Without the blank adaptor on the muzzle, he attempted to demonstrate the damage which can be done to a styrofoam coffee cup placed over the muzzle when firing the blank round. With the rifle on safe, he loaded a magazine, yanked the charging handle, dropping the bolt with the muzzle down and it fired the blank round. The rifle did not feed or chamber the next round from the magazine, nor did it eject the fired one.

I saw the selector was on safe.

He then charged the rifle with the muzzle elevated, he placed cup on muzzle, rolled the selector to fire and let it rip. Cup was quite damaged. Point well received by the troops, but he and I stepped aside and took a peek at the rifle and brass.


When I was in tech school in the AF the instructors said they used blanks to kill snakes (less the blank adapter of course.). Without the blank adapter all the gas goes out the muzzle. Not enough or none goes into the gas tube which cycles the action. This is why the rifle did not feed another round.

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Originally Posted by Just a Hunter

When I was in tech school in the AF the instructors said they used blanks to kill snakes (less the blank adapter of course.). Without the blank adapter all the gas goes out the muzzle. Not enough or none goes into the gas tube which cycles the action. This is why the rifle did not feed another round.


Thank you for your service!

Second blank round the 1SG fired did move the BCG enough to cock the hammer, eject the spent brass and chamber the next round.
Attributed that to the upright muzzle and pressure from the cup on the muzzle.


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I just assumed everyone eye and finger fugged the chamber.

Dropping the hammer on an empty chamber doesn't lead to mass murdering your ceiling.

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I fall back on my Army days. When the rifle goes into the arms room (or the safe) it is with the hammer down, dust cover closed and safety is on "fire" since it won't go to "safe". When it comes out the bolt goes back, the safety goes on, magazine in the well and then drop the bolt loading it.
kwg


For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Originally Posted by WTM45
Originally Posted by Just a Hunter

When I was in tech school in the AF the instructors said they used blanks to kill snakes (less the blank adapter of course.). Without the blank adapter all the gas goes out the muzzle. Not enough or none goes into the gas tube which cycles the action. This is why the rifle did not feed another round.


Thank you for your service!

Second blank round the 1SG fired did move the BCG enough to cock the hammer, eject the spent brass and chamber the next round.
Attributed that to the upright muzzle and pressure from the cup on the muzzle.



Thank you. You too.

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My AR is one of my home defense firearms. It's stored with a full magazine in the gun, an empty chamber and the safety off. If I rack the charging handle and don't shoot immediately then the safety goes on. I never drop the hammer unless their is a live round under it. I've never had a ND, so my system must work.

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