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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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GOOD CHEAP BINOCULARS!
Over the past quarter-century the overall quality of binoculars has gone up—and the price in relationship to quality has gone down. Well, except for so-called “alpha” glass from the Big Three in Europe. Largely due to exchange rates, the prices for the best binoculars from Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss have gone up considerably in the past few years. I got my Leica Duovid 8+12x42, one of my favorite binoculars, about 10 years ago when the Duovids were first introduced. Back then the 8+12 retailed for around $1300. Since then the real-world price has almost doubled to around $2500, and the top binoculars from Swarovski and Zeiss are in the same price range.
Now, alpha glass is certainly among the best in the world, but quite a few other binoculars come really, really close at a fraction of the cost. The first non-alpha roof-prism that really impressed me was the now-discontinued Pentax DCF WP, which also came out around a decade ago. Made in Japan, the optics were so good that when on a prairie dog shoot hosted by Ramshot Powders in eastern Montana, I asked several of the attendees to look through the Pentax and a European binocular of the same magnification and objective size, and see which one they liked best.
The logos were covered with tape so the test wouldn’t be prejudiced by name-brand. About 3/4 of the testers said they two binoculars were about equal, while the other quarter picked the Pentax. Nobody picked the European brand. At the time the Pentax retailed for around $600, while the Euro-glass went around $1000.
Now, I’m not going to tell you the name of the alpha, because the optics market changes so fast that neither binocular is the same anymore. But I can say that there are even better binoculars on the market right now for much less than $600, largely due to the emergence of Chinese optics.
Now, you probably have some feelings about Chinese products. Most of us do, but the fact is Chinese glass is here, and the companies that sell it are usually American, though some are more American than others. Hawke Optics, for instance, is one of the top optics suppliers in Europe, but has had an American office in Indiana for a number of years. Their binoculars are apparently engineered in Japan and mostly made in China. Another new optics company, Kruger, also designs and engineers all their optics (and even assembles some) in Sisters, Oregon. Their sales office is in California and their “logistics” office in Shanghai.
So, like many modern companies, a lot of these new “Chinese” optics companies are actually multi-national. It’s really rare these days for any company to design and manufacture every part of all their products under one roof. Even the alpha optical companies buy some parts from elsewhere, and in the last year Zeiss introduced a spotting scope they’re having made to their specifications in Japan. Another non-alpha but highly regarded European optics firm has been having their binoculars made in Japan for several years. I can’t tell you which one, due to promising not to, but the interesting thing is the Japanese version is slightly but noticeably better.
This multi-national production has resulted in very fine binoculars at very affordable prices. The 10x43 roof-prism binoculars from Hawke (Frontier ED) retail for around $450, and the Kruger Back Country roof-prism 10x50 I’ve recently been testing retails for less than $300. All have really good glass.
The return of Porro-prism binoculars has dropped the price of good glass even further. Back when I started hunting in the 1960’s, most hunters used Porro-prism binoculars rather than roof-prisms, because their optical system is inherently sharper, and they’re cheaper to manufacture. Roof prism binoculars are somewhat smaller in the same magnification/objective size, a little stronger, and easier to seal against moisture, but there really wasn’t a contest in optics or price. It wasn’t until after the introduction of phase-correction coatings in the 1990’s that roof-prism binoculars started dominating the market.
In the past few years, however, manufacturers have figured out how to seal Porro-prism binoculars. As a result, many darn good and very inexpensive Porro binoculars have appeared on the market. Among the best-known are the Leupold Yosemites, especially the 6x30, a light little glass with very good optics, for a real-world price of under $100.
Some of you are probably thinking: “Well, these optical bargains sound good, but how do they work in actual hunting? Don’t more expensive binoculars hold up better?” Well, maybe, though even alpha glass varies in toughness. In 2009, however, I put several “affordable” binoculars to real hunting tests, after all had been used considerably for local hunting in Montana and held up fine.
The first test was a bear hunt in Alaska, a state not usually kind to any hunting equipment. It started out as a black bear hunt with Stoney River Outfitters. My guide was a young Pennsylvanian named Zack Farmer, who’d just spent over $1000 on a European binocular. My Chinese 10x43, however, was noticeably better, so after I got my bear and flew out of our spike camp back to the main lodge to do a little flyfishing for salmon, I left it with Zack for the remaining two months of his guiding season, figuring that would be a very good test. It held up just fine.
After the Super Cub landed back to the lodge I was informed there’d been a cancellation by a grizzly bear hunter, and the cancelled hunt was really affordable. I was flown out to another camp to hunt with guide Bryce Johnson, and took along my backup binocular, a 6x30 Yosemite. Bryce had an alpha binocular with somewhat more magnification, but it really isn’t hard to spot bears across open tundra, and the Yosemite proved quite adequate, even when my grizzly finally showed up about a mile away. (Here it should be mentioned that Phil Shoemaker, the well-known Alaskan brown bear outfitter and magazine writer, uses a 6x30 Yosemite. Actually he has three, I believe, figuring if one gets accidentally squashed or lost while hunting he’s only out $80, and can re-equip with one of the backups at camp.)
When the opportunity for another cancellation hunt came up later in the fall I took along a Hawke 10x43 Frontier ED. This was a mule deer hunt in Alberta with a company I’ve hunted with several times before for game from waterfowl to moose, Ameri-Cana Outfitters. The hunt was half-price, so Eileen and I could both hunt for the regular price of one hunt—though even at half-price each of our hunts cost more than an average Montana or Wyoming mule deer hunts.
Eileen took her favorite hunting binocular, a Swarovski 8x32 EL, while our guide Ron Carlson had an older Porro-prism Zeiss. The hunt started the first of November, before the rut had really started, and on the fourth day I spotted two good bucks together, close to a mile away across a wide creekbottom. No doubt either Eileen or Ron could have first spotted them, since they both picked them up quickly in their Euro-glass, but the fact remains that the Hawke worked quite nicely—and hunting mule deer on the Alberta prairies is very much a glassing game. We watched while the bucks wandered up a gentle ridge to find a place to bed, then started our stalk. An hour later one of the bucks stood up from some knee-high brush about 275 yards away, and Eileen dropped it, whereupon the other buck stood up, wondering what happened to his buddy, and I shot him.
So yeah, today’s affordable binoculars can really hunt, whether they cost $80 or $450. If you can’t justify spending $2500 for binoculars, or even $1000, don’t feel bad, because there’s some really good glass out there for really good prices.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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I’m sure there are great binoculars below the $1k price point. I just bought a Leica HD 8x42 and I could not be more pleased. I could pick out a bedded cow elk turn her head and make out the ears a little over 2,000 yards away on a recent Colorado hunt. Not so sure I would have had that resolution with my old binos. Happy Trails
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Never could figure out paying 4 times more for a glass that is 2 or 5 % better, sometimes not better. Buy what pleases your eyes and glass away.
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Campfire Regular
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GOOD CHEAP BINOCULARS!
Over the past quarter-century the overall quality of binoculars has gone up—and the price in relationship to quality has gone down. Well, except for so-called “alpha” glass from the Big Three in Europe. Largely due to exchange rates, the prices for the best binoculars from Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss have gone up considerably in the past few years. I got my Leica Duovid 8+12x42, one of my favorite binoculars, about 10 years ago when the Duovids were first introduced. Back then the 8+12 retailed for around $1300. Since then the real-world price has almost doubled to around $2500, and the top binoculars from Swarovski and Zeiss are in the same price range.
Now, alpha glass is certainly among the best in the world, but quite a few other binoculars come really, really close at a fraction of the cost. The first non-alpha roof-prism that really impressed me was the now-discontinued Pentax DCF WP, which also came out around a decade ago. Made in Japan, the optics were so good that when on a prairie dog shoot hosted by Ramshot Powders in eastern Montana, I asked several of the attendees to look through the Pentax and a European binocular of the same magnification and objective size, and see which one they liked best.
The logos were covered with tape so the test wouldn’t be prejudiced by name-brand. About 3/4 of the testers said they two binoculars were about equal, while the other quarter picked the Pentax. Nobody picked the European brand. At the time the Pentax retailed for around $600, while the Euro-glass went around $1000.
Now, I’m not going to tell you the name of the alpha, because the optics market changes so fast that neither binocular is the same anymore. But I can say that there are even better binoculars on the market right now for much less than $600, largely due to the emergence of Chinese optics.
Now, you probably have some feelings about Chinese products. Most of us do, but the fact is Chinese glass is here, and the companies that sell it are usually American, though some are more American than others. Hawke Optics, for instance, is one of the top optics suppliers in Europe, but has had an American office in Indiana for a number of years. Their binoculars are apparently engineered in Japan and mostly made in China. Another new optics company, Kruger, also designs and engineers all their optics (and even assembles some) in Sisters, Oregon. Their sales office is in California and their “logistics” office in Shanghai.
So, like many modern companies, a lot of these new “Chinese” optics companies are actually multi-national. It’s really rare these days for any company to design and manufacture every part of all their products under one roof. Even the alpha optical companies buy some parts from elsewhere, and in the last year Zeiss introduced a spotting scope they’re having made to their specifications in Japan. Another non-alpha but highly regarded European optics firm has been having their binoculars made in Japan for several years. I can’t tell you which one, due to promising not to, but the interesting thing is the Japanese version is slightly but noticeably better.
This multi-national production has resulted in very fine binoculars at very affordable prices. The 10x43 roof-prism binoculars from Hawke (Frontier ED) retail for around $450, and the Kruger Back Country roof-prism 10x50 I’ve recently been testing retails for less than $300. All have really good glass.
The return of Porro-prism binoculars has dropped the price of good glass even further. Back when I started hunting in the 1960’s, most hunters used Porro-prism binoculars rather than roof-prisms, because their optical system is inherently sharper, and they’re cheaper to manufacture. Roof prism binoculars are somewhat smaller in the same magnification/objective size, a little stronger, and easier to seal against moisture, but there really wasn’t a contest in optics or price. It wasn’t until after the introduction of phase-correction coatings in the 1990’s that roof-prism binoculars started dominating the market.
In the past few years, however, manufacturers have figured out how to seal Porro-prism binoculars. As a result, many darn good and very inexpensive Porro binoculars have appeared on the market. Among the best-known are the Leupold Yosemites, especially the 6x30, a light little glass with very good optics, for a real-world price of under $100.
Some of you are probably thinking: “Well, these optical bargains sound good, but how do they work in actual hunting? Don’t more expensive binoculars hold up better?” Well, maybe, though even alpha glass varies in toughness. In 2009, however, I put several “affordable” binoculars to real hunting tests, after all had been used considerably for local hunting in Montana and held up fine.
The first test was a bear hunt in Alaska, a state not usually kind to any hunting equipment. It started out as a black bear hunt with Stoney River Outfitters. My guide was a young Pennsylvanian named Zack Farmer, who’d just spent over $1000 on a European binocular. My Chinese 10x43, however, was noticeably better, so after I got my bear and flew out of our spike camp back to the main lodge to do a little flyfishing for salmon, I left it with Zack for the remaining two months of his guiding season, figuring that would be a very good test. It held up just fine.
After the Super Cub landed back to the lodge I was informed there’d been a cancellation by a grizzly bear hunter, and the cancelled hunt was really affordable. I was flown out to another camp to hunt with guide Bryce Johnson, and took along my backup binocular, a 6x30 Yosemite. Bryce had an alpha binocular with somewhat more magnification, but it really isn’t hard to spot bears across open tundra, and the Yosemite proved quite adequate, even when my grizzly finally showed up about a mile away. (Here it should be mentioned that Phil Shoemaker, the well-known Alaskan brown bear outfitter and magazine writer, uses a 6x30 Yosemite. Actually he has three, I believe, figuring if one gets accidentally squashed or lost while hunting he’s only out $80, and can re-equip with one of the backups at camp.)
When the opportunity for another cancellation hunt came up later in the fall I took along a Hawke 10x43 Frontier ED. This was a mule deer hunt in Alberta with a company I’ve hunted with several times before for game from waterfowl to moose, Ameri-Cana Outfitters. The hunt was half-price, so Eileen and I could both hunt for the regular price of one hunt—though even at half-price each of our hunts cost more than an average Montana or Wyoming mule deer hunts.
Eileen took her favorite hunting binocular, a Swarovski 8x32 EL, while our guide Ron Carlson had an older Porro-prism Zeiss. The hunt started the first of November, before the rut had really started, and on the fourth day I spotted two good bucks together, close to a mile away across a wide creekbottom. No doubt either Eileen or Ron could have first spotted them, since they both picked them up quickly in their Euro-glass, but the fact remains that the Hawke worked quite nicely—and hunting mule deer on the Alberta prairies is very much a glassing game. We watched while the bucks wandered up a gentle ridge to find a place to bed, then started our stalk. An hour later one of the bucks stood up from some knee-high brush about 275 yards away, and Eileen dropped it, whereupon the other buck stood up, wondering what happened to his buddy, and I shot him.
So yeah, today’s affordable binoculars can really hunt, whether they cost $80 or $450. If you can’t justify spending $2500 for binoculars, or even $1000, don’t feel bad, because there’s some really good glass out there for really good prices.
Great post. I have been very impressed with Vortex Crossfire at a reasonable price.
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Campfire Ranger
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It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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John- I will agree that some of the lesser binoculars are ok. I could probably hunt the rest of my life with a pair of Vortex Viper HD 10X42 binoculars and be pretty happy. Teaching is my profession so I don't get to spend the hunting time that others do. I know how good those vipers which are made in China are. However, there is this. Swarovski explains to you in their seminars that nobody just bellies up to the bar and buys a pair of ELs. They are out hunting with somebody who has a pair and that person is seeing all of the game and they can't with the binoculars that they have. I do get to do hunts every once in a while. When I do go hunting I want the very best rifle the best scope the best spotter the best tent and the best binoculars that are available. My time is that valuable. I have been out with hunters with the aforementioned Vipers and while they could see dots that looked like snow patches I could make out rams or ewes. This was during the nastiest possible conditions on one of the nastiest places on the planet that you can't get to now unless you can fork over 25,000. Nobody else can even get you in there. I sell probably 15 pairs of Vipers to each pair of ELs or SFs or Noctovids when I am selling binoculars part time. So when I hear of somebody who spends 3000.00 for their rifle set up, 15,000 for their side by side, 70,000 for their big diesel dually and thousands of dollars on high end goretex camo but they are unwilling to buy the best optics for them I take a pause. It is kind of like planning a vacation to florida and packing everything except for sunscreen. Most of the posters on this forum have the money, the time or the opportunity to get alpha binoculars that they might use for the rest of their lifetimes. Those that don't probably are working hard to that end.
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Great info, as always. Thanks for sharing.
I found some private label 8x32 binocs that I liked better than the alphas to which I compared them. That they were only 15% as much was just icing on the cake.
Like shoes, or bourbon, our individual tastes may not conform to popular opinions. Get what works for you, and apologize to no one.
FC
"Every day is a holiday, and every meal is a banquet."
- Mrs. FC
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Some mornings, it just does not feel worth it to chew through the straps!~
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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JG,
Ha! I did read that thread--and then, because I also "collect" optics, figured out that I also might have $35,000 in optics "other than scopes." Somehow they keep showing up, so I can compare various brands--and have others compare them as well.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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kabuko,
Apparently you (along with probably many others) did NOT notice that nowhere did I say that "alpha" optics aren't the best in the world. The very best alphas are, or at least among the best.
What I was pointing out was that non-alpha optics have caught up considerably in the last 25 years or so, now and then even surpassing certain alpha brands. This forced the alphas to up their game. I have seen this again and again, both because I have the opportunity to test various binoculars and spotting scopes side-by-side in varying conditions, and because I've had that same opportunity constantly for almost 30 years.
If you sincerely believe that all non-alpha binoculars will only show "dots that look like snow-patches" when you can make out rams or ewes, then you haven't looked through enough non-alpha binoculars. It's also interesting that Japanese cameras have dominated the professional photography market for over 25 years. Why is that, if alpha Euro-optics are so obviously superior?
You obviously didn't read closely enough to understand that I have plenty of alpha binoculars and spotting scopes, and am not about to give them up--though I have given SOME up in the past, when other brands surpassed them. That is the way capitalist competition works, and the reason that not only alpha optics but "non alphas" keep improving. There are indeed $500 binoculars these days that are better than the alphas of 25 years ago.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I use cheap binoculars.
For the last 4 plus decades I have used only 2 pair of Zeiss binoculars, 8x for brush hunting and 10x for open country.
Paid less than $100 for each .
I think bino's are obsolete technology unless they also contain a rangefinder. That would be the only enticement for me.
John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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John: I got a really good pair of binocs about five years ago, a make/model you had reviewed very favorably, and in fact THE pair you had reviewed favorably, for something south of $150, thanks to our mutual friend BJ of Helena. I have alpha glass too, but this unit is my wife's favorite, and they are often my go-to as well.
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I have had Kahles and Zeiss binoculars, my current binoculars are an inexpensive pair of Bushnell which I am happy with. I have checked out the Vortex line of binoculars and was very impressed with the quality, for the price I feel they represent an excellent value.
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I probably don't have $35,000 in binoculars but I do have quite a few. I used to have many more and gave many away to family and starting hunters. I didn't write the Bible in optics so I really don't have a dog in the fight. However, I do see a problem. A lot of people expect a pair of $400 - 650 binoculars to stand up to the alphas and they are close. This is when you check their optical clarity, sweet spots, chromatic aberration, field of view, eye relief and even the eye strain generated. They bank on what you say as a writer and when you tell them that their pair of hawke 10X42s are a good as EL 10X42svs they believe you. That part time job gives me a lot of insight in how many of those second tier binoculars stand up to bad conditions. We have failures in every brand including the alphas. However, the toughest thing that I see that believe a lower or mid tier pair of binoculars is better than the alphas. They might have a pair of diamondbacks that are whacked out of alignment and you get head aches just from looking through them. The owner sometimes will bring them in and we send them off to get fixed but nobody is happy. I have a pair of Glanz 8X30 porro prisms that I bought at an auction for 5$. https://ibb.co/bXQ6Ss1The thing is with these binoculars that even if they are just coated they can run with mid tier binoculars made today. If I had a budget I would research old brands of occupied Japanese binoculars and get a pair like these. You probably could get them for almost free. Why would you. The US government paid for german optics people from Zeiss to teach the Japanese to make top tier binoculars. Some of them are still right there. Its not the coatings which are fair but give a bluish tint but the optical quality of the glass and who worked grinding the glass to perfection. Again I probably don't know that much but I try.
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All I got out of this was phil shoemaker has 3 binoculars of the same make.. and the op he got a bear hunt in alaska on the cheap.. oh and don't waste your money on 10 power binos get 6 power. And go to Alberta for a deer hunt..
Last edited by 79S; 12/04/18.
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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I probably don't have $35,000 in binoculars but I do have quite a few. I used to have many more and gave many away to family and starting hunters. I didn't write the Bible in optics so I really don't have a dog in the fight. However, I do see a problem. A lot of people expect a pair of $400 - 650 binoculars to stand up to the alphas and they are close. This is when you check their optical clarity, sweet spots, chromatic aberration, field of view, eye relief and even the eye strain generated. They bank on what you say as a writer and when you tell them that their pair of hawke 10X42s are a good as EL 10X42svs they believe you. That part time job gives me a lot of insight in how many of those second tier binoculars stand up to bad conditions. We have failures in every brand including the alphas. However, the toughest thing that I see that believe a lower or mid tier pair of binoculars is better than the alphas. They might have a pair of diamondbacks that are whacked out of alignment and you get head aches just from looking through them. The owner sometimes will bring them in and we send them off to get fixed but nobody is happy. I have a pair of Glanz 8X30 porro prisms that I bought at an auction for 5$. https://ibb.co/bXQ6Ss1The thing is with these binoculars that even if they are just coated they can run with mid tier binoculars made today. If I had a budget I would research old brands of occupied Japanese binoculars and get a pair like these. You probably could get them for almost free. Why would you. The US government paid for german optics people from Zeiss to teach the Japanese to make top tier binoculars. Some of them are still right there. Its not the coatings which are fair but give a bluish tint but the optical quality of the glass and who worked grinding the glass to perfection. Again I probably don't know that much but I try. He did not say, or represent, anything close to what you say he posted. Read it again.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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I have been using some Pentax for several years now. Very happy with them. No distortion toward the edges. Easy to adjust. While a bit heavy because of being porro, a harness makes it easy to carry them. My neighbor had a hot shot pair he was proud of. I compared. No question my very affordable Pentax was superior.
Society of Intolerant Old Men. Rifle Slut Division
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Have a Swift "Ultra Lite" 8x42 and Pentax 8x42 DCF HR II. All the binocular I'll ever need.Thanks for the write up John.
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Great post. It really is incredible how far the dollar stretches in binos today. I think a good $350-500 pair of binos, such as the Vipers, BX4, Tract, Monarch 7, etc., is all the vast majority would ever need to purchase for a lifetime of hunting. I'll be the first to admit that if I am going on a guided hunt, I'm bringing the best I have. However, I have noticed that the guides often don't have "alpha" glass and still have no problem finding game.
Last edited by TxHunter80; 12/04/18.
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I get to look through a lot of different brands each fall during my guiding season, and my opinion is a bit different. The top three Alpha brands are still miles ahead of anything else in low light conditions, and Swaros are at the top of the heap when light is scarce. Good glass in my opinion is the most important piece of equipment you can have. If you want to save money there are many ways to cut costs. Lots of good rifles can be had for $500, a cheap Savage will kill just as sure as that custom or semi custom job. Same goes for clothing. I see hunters show up every year that look like they just walked out of a Sitka catalogue. A rain suit from that company will set you back hundreds of dollars and it isn't as good as my Helly Hansons that I got for $50. Get into their super down stuff, and you just spent more on clothing than I did for my Swaro glass. Also keep in mind that you only need to buy good glass once. I spend 60-70 days afield each and every season and my Sawros are over 15 years old and still as good as the day I bought them. Their warranty is as good as it gets too. Mine accidentally got left in a storage barrel that was sitting beside a hunting cabin one fall. A bear showed up after we left and tipped the barrel over, it rolled down the hill into the lake where it stayed until the next spring. My binoculars were almost unrecognizable when we pulled them out the next spring. Sent them to Swarovski and they rebuilt them and sent back to me at no cost......try that will a chinese pair.
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Here's another way I look at it: I took a pair of 8x42 Alphas on a hunt in the Alps, and my hunting partner had a US branded 10x model that was one of the very first to have a built-in rangefinder. The alpha binocular would retail at 3x to 4x the price of the US branded model.
The glass on the 10x was quite good, indeed, and the results of the rangefinder matched exactly those of stand-alone alpha rangefinders. When glassing whatever drainage we were in, there was nothing one binocular could find that the other could not. Differences in view were small, if any.
It was only when we began glassing the ridgeline beyond our drainage that the alpha binocular was able to find game animals that neither of us could make out with the 10x US branded model. Whereas we'd both considered the binoculars to be equal "for hunting purposes" a few minutes before, the superiority of the Alphas quickly became evident.
Accordingly, if one asks, "Are Alpha binoculars better?", the answer is obviously, "Yes!". However, for me to make that determination, I had to be on what was probably a once-in-a-lifetime hunt in a national park in the Alps, and to be glassing areas that were 2 drainages (and at least a full day's hike) away from me. Would I notice the difference in a swamp? How about in a thick stand of hardwoods? A box stand looking across 300 yards of Midwestern corn field?
A Corvette's the same as a Corolla when you're both stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.
FC
"Every day is a holiday, and every meal is a banquet."
- Mrs. FC
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Good post JB. As you said, there was a time when the difference between alpha glass and the other stuff was a major gulf. Not so much anymore. About 35 years ago I sprang for a Zeiss 8x20 compact (over $400 at that time) when my hunting buddies were all using Bushnell, Swift and similar optics. We had several instances when they would be looking at a deer trying to decide if it was legal (forked horn or better) and couldn't make the determination. I would look with those Zeiss compacts and immediately tell it it had a legal fork and on which side.
I still have 2 pair of alphas but recently bought a pair from one of the medium range upstarts for about $600. They are noticeably better than the older alphas.
I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all.
Jack O'Connor
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Good article.
I think the picture will continue to change too. The Chinese now manufacture Schott glass and it is possible that their lenses are better than some others due to no lead and other environmental restrictions. The Chinese are also trying to corner the market on the so called rare earths many of which come from Africa. These are essential for the modern lens coatings as well as computers and other electronics. I do have ethical issues if my binoculars were produced at the expense of miming and road building across the Serengeti and other critical habitats. As always there is no free lunch.
Another issue seems to be what is called quality fade where in an overzealous effort to reduce costs the quality starts to fall by the wayside. I believe this is what happened with the Chinese produced Meopta's. In addition many companies are reluctant to have manufacturing done in China and some other Countries due to the proliferation of knock off products made by the same manufacturers in some cases. Tariffs may enter into the picture too as we have already seen in other industries in the US.
There is no question that the optics available today are some of the best ever, and some are much more affordable.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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I am going to apologize to JB and claim azzhat status today. I know that my responses have been bitter and vitriolic. I freely admit that mid-tier glass is very good. It is much better than what people believe and I still see people come in buy a pair of poroprism nikons or even tascos and be done with it. The mid tier companies are pushing the alphas. Vortex is the biggest optics company in the world. Many of those people with wrecked vortex binoculars treat them terribly where those who buy a top tier pair of Zeiss or Leicas baby them. I will end my line of conversation in this thread with this. Every pair of mid tier binoculars has spiff incentives for the sellers of the binoculars to get either money or credit towards those binoculars that they sell. Mavens and Tracts don't follow this model and I don't know if GPO(which I would love to look through does) but the others are pushed by sellers in the optics department. The markup on mid tiers is mostly 45%-50%. Mark up on the top line of Alphas is 15% at the most. Many are just 10% above cost. covers, harnesses, adapters and other things are marked up. It just sticks in my craw that people will start with Crossfires, move up to Dimondbacks then buy a pair of Nikon Monarch 7s then buy a pair of Razors to get the optics that they really want when they could of bought a pair of alphas in the first place. This happens in Spotters more than binoculars but I see it in both lines of gear. Again, if I was a jerk I apologize. Its not very Christmasy.
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Great article. I'm always a sucker for a great value. A current gem in the optics world is the Nikon Monarch 7 8x30. While not cheap at $350, certainly no where near what alphas cost and the view is spectacular. The only thing they give up to the alphas that I can find is some flare control. Maybe the best thing about 'cheap' binos is that they get used. I always have them in the truck and ready to go. Alphas tend to stay in the safe for fear that someone may break in and steal them. FWIW: I would absolutely without a doubt replace my Monarch 7 8X30s with the same bino if they ever were stolen, that is about as good of an endorsement as I can give.
Last edited by centershot; 12/04/18.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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This feels like an AA meeting. My name is JOG and I use 'cheap' binoculars (Two Leupold BX-2 Tiogas).
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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JB,
Thanks for the article ...obviously you are not going to please everybody with your opinion but I appreciated the article because I dont hunt 50 days a year but am always looking to get the most bang for the buck and knowing I can get pretty close to the alpha binoculars for hundreds of dollars instead of thousands and who is making some of the better optics is a great help.....thanks again
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At a glance, many mid-tier binos do look nice. I don’t own ‘alpha’ glass, but I did borrow some Swaro 10x42 ELs for elk season where we did significant glassing side by side with my Viper HD 10x42s, and I purchased some Swaro 8x32 CLs that I used mule deer hunting. Over time, the lack of eye strain and beautifully clear image pays off. I won’t rule out glass other than the top three, but anything else will really have to impress me. The money spent on my CLs was very well spent. So I guess mid-tier with a top company isn’t a bad place to be.
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MD,
I cannot speak to the Leupold Yosemite as I have not tried them. I work for a large oil company. One of our duties is wildlife monitoring and intervention so my guys spend hours a day with their binoculars on the north slope of Alaska. Earlier in the project, about four years ago, one of the company bosses bought us several of the Leupold Rogues. Honestly they were awful. We all complained of eyestrain and headaches after not very much use and several guys brought their own glass for their rotations since it didn't seem like the company wanted to spend money on good glass.
Management changes on a regular basis in the oilfields and this summer one of the new bosses went out with one of my guys to check out a vast herd of caribou moving through the area. He needed to see if their line of travel looked like it would require them to reschedule work in that area. After five minutes with the Rogues, he exclaimed "these are awful! They don't focus together and they make my eyes feel like their getting sucked out of my head." My guy told him, "welcome to our world." That afternoon we had received authorization for, and ordered, three Vortex Viper HD's. The guys love them and no longer complain about eye strain and headaches, but they were way more than $80.
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
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Am I the only one that thinks the term "alpha glass" is beyond silly? It's right up there with "you get what you pay for".
Thanks or the write up, MD. I'm still looking for the perfect set of binoculars. I've looked through a bunch lately and most all have fantastic optics. It's the fit that sets one binocular over the other for me.
Getting a binocular that has great adjustments, eye cups, and ergonomics for my eyes and face has proven far more difficult than finding a binocular that offers an outstanding image after a bit of fiddling.
Last edited by MadMooner; 12/04/18.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Thanks JB. As someone without deep pockets, I really appreciate articles like this that allow me to maximize what I can afford within my budget. Several years ago I purchased 10x50 binos which you recommended and have not been disappointed. However, I have noticed that the guides often don't have "alpha" glass and still have no problem finding game. Much of finding game has to do with training and experience in glassing in that particular environment. Knowing exactly what you are looking for and what looks out of place and what doesn't. A Corvette's the same as a Corolla when you're both stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.
FC Yep, except for the oooh's and aaah's. 
Ed
A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.
The worst slaves are those that put the chains on themselves.
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Only a bino user here, but I have a pair of porro prism Leupolds that I bought in the 80's fo ra Colorado sheep hunt.I l also have pair of Nikon and Leupold roof prisms.
The problem I have is the roof prisms I can't adjust each eye piece as I can for the Leupold porro. I also like the wider FOV with them.
I was very disappointed in the smaller Nikons this past elk season as I could not adjust them fine enough to pick up bull's antlers in the brush 250 yards away.
I don't go on $25000,hunts, or even $5000 hunts,but must admit I just bought new Chevy diesel .However,that said, I can't ever remember that I needed to see some game animal enough to justify a few grand in binos. I'll look at some of the newer ones after reading this post and maybe find a $200 pair that will suit me.
Anyone know of any that still have individual focus for each eye?
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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I've got one of those 6x30 Yosemites and they're pretty good. Got it for the truck and for loaning out but the fact of the matter is I'll use them for myself a lot of the time by choice.
Especially when I'm looking at something that isn't in the next time zone. Medium sort of ranges. Another thing I like about them is a lack of eyestrain. I've looked through a lot of glass that hurts my eyes and these Yosemites don't.
If they get lost or broken replacing them will cost less than a routine Midway order.
All things are always on the move simultaneously. - W.S. Churchill
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Good info John. Thanks for the post.
Aside from the optics mentioned, are there any other "cheap" binos that you think are exceptional?
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Ingwe made a very interesting post a while back when people were discussing scope quality which has stayed with me.
Tom said he would rather have his money in good bino's than the scope which you generally use for mere seconds while aligning the reticle on game compared to the hours which can be spent glassing.
I think this it true more than most digest, but after having a largely ignorant life using only Zeiss, I still recognize that my older models will not likely compete with today's products. But as I stated earlier, I doubt I would consider anything without a range finder inbuilt. For that intent, Leica is attractive to me and I also notice they are continually upgrading those because of the markets unrealistic appetite for absurd ranges.
JB did a great roundup as usual.
John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Only a bino user here, but I have a pair of porro prism Leupolds that I bought in the 80's fo ra Colorado sheep hunt.I l also have pair of Nikon and Leupold roof prisms.
The problem I have is the roof prisms I can't adjust each eye piece as I can for the Leupold porro. I also like the wider FOV with them.
I was very disappointed in the smaller Nikons this past elk season as I could not adjust them fine enough to pick up bull's antlers in the brush 250 yards away.
I don't go on $25000,hunts, or even $5000 hunts,but must admit I just bought new Chevy diesel .However,that said, I can't ever remember that I needed to see some game animal enough to justify a few grand in binos. I'll look at some of the newer ones after reading this post and maybe find a $200 pair that will suit me.
Anyone know of any that still have individual focus for each eye? No diopter adjustment on either roof prism bino?
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Thanks JB. As someone without deep pockets, I really appreciate articles like this that allow me to maximize what I can afford within my budget. Several years ago I purchased 10x50 binos which you recommended and have not been disappointed. However, I have noticed that the guides often don't have "alpha" glass and still have no problem finding game. Much of finding game has to do with training and experience in glassing in that particular environment. Knowing exactly what you are looking for and what looks out of place and what doesn't. A Corvette's the same as a Corolla when you're both stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.
FC Yep, except for the oooh's and aaah's. Im not going to say that all guides use one of the three "alpha" brands, but I personally dont know any that dont. Even most of the TV show hosts use one of the big three. They might be sponsored by a lesser brand, but the good stuff comes out when the cameras are off. I have great respect for John B. but I disagree with him on this one. Good glass is the most important piece of gear a hunter owns, and since most big game animals are more active early and late, in my mind its worth it to spend a few extra bucks to get glass thats superior in low light conditions. The alpha brands are all far superior in these conditions than anything else, and Swaros are at the top of the heap in that regard. There are far better ways to cut costs in hunting gear imo.
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JB
After reading about Yosemite 6x30 in your earlier writing I purchased a set for my wife and she has been very happy with them.
Ted
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. Even most of the TV show hosts use one of the big three. Haha. "Hunting" show TV hosts!!! Must be good then...
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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I like my 30+ year old 7x35WW Stieners.
They are armored and might need to be re-coated if they still do that.
Got them from the Father in law one year fir Christmas.
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Campfire Kahuna
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yukon254,
While I never said all "cheap" binoculars are close to Big Three Alpha in quality, I have seen several instances where Asian binoculars were definitely better than SOME alphas. A couple of instances included a 2003 mule deer hunt in the Missouri Breaks where I was a sort-of back-up guide to an outfitter friend who was guiding an Eastern friend.of mine named Pete, who'd just purchased an alpha 10x42. I happened to have brought along a Japanese 10x42, which I already knew was a little better than the alpha--because I'd been running tests with it for several months, including "blind" tests with other people. While we were glassing late one day, Pete was getting frustrated because he wasn't seeing all the same deer the outfitter and I were (can't recall exactly what binocular what the outfitter used, but it was good). I finally handed Pete my Japanese glass, which cost about half as much as his alpha, and he then COULD see more deer through it.
The other example took place in Alaska in 2009. I was bear hunting with a young guide who'd just spent around $1200 on a new 10x42 of another alpha brand, while I had the first Chinese-made binocular I was really impressed with. After a couple of days the young guide was too, again because I was out-spotting him, and then handing him my binocular. In fact, at the end of the hunt I gave him my "cheap" binocular (which cost less than half of his, and he then used it for sheep guiding that fall.
Now, there are more relevant details. First, even alpha binocular manufacturers make different "grades," and both the alphas in these examples were then the "lowest" grade from each manufacturer. Plus, within the next year each alpha manufacturer brought out a new and improved version of the same binoculars that was out-performed by Asian glass. They then were probably at least as good, or even better than the Asian binoculars.
But the major point, which I thought was made in the article pretty plainly, was that ALL binoculars have continued to improve rapidly over the past 30 years, basically since phase-correction coating was introduced in roof-prism binoculars, finally making them the optical equal of Porro-prisms. Some of the Asian binoculars have matched or surpassed certain alpha binoculars made at the same time--and the alpha com-panies responded by improving their products.
But anybody who firmly believes ALL binoculars of any alpha brand are far superior to ANY binoculars made by "lesser" companies has been mistaken for several decades. In fact, some Nikons and Japanese Bausch & Lombs made in the early 1990's were basically alphas--though they cost just about as much too. And some European brands not usually considered in the "alpha" group are also just as good, or very close, to some alphas, including Kalhles, Meopta, Minox and Steiner--and Meopta binoculars in particular have the reputation of being as tough as any hunting binoculars available.
I Can understand why many guides buy alpha glass. It's one way to be sure they're getting top optical quality. But it isn't the only way, and hasn't been for a while now.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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John,
Thanks for the detailed post.
In a story too long to tell, but involving Leupold graciously replacing a "knockabout" 10x50 Porro-prism I clumsily knocked out of alignment with a much more expensive 10x50 roof-prism I will not risk to "knockabout" use, I find myself in need of another "knockabout" binocular. Leupold has clearly earned some loyalty from me, and based on your experience I am going to buy a Yosemite Porro-prism.
Finally, my question. I feel the 10 x 30 are a bit small in exit pupil. The 6 x 30 have a great exit pupil, but may be a bit down in magnification for me. You often mention the Yosemite 6x30. I am considering the 8x30. Do you have any experience with that model? (It seems that sometimes one size in a model line for some reason ends up "better" than its siblings. Hence, my question.)
Thanks so much,
Gun Doc
Clinging to guns & religion since 1959
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Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness"
More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
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Once I'm satisfied with the quality of view of a bino and spotter, I ask myself three things: Do I think the glass will hold up? Do I think the company will be around years from now?, And is the warranty and CS is as good in practice as is often claimed in the advertising?
Case(s) in point: My beloved 1st gen Bushnell Custom 7x26's are plumb wore out, the lens coatings are scratched and/or flaking, the faux leather is cracked, the damn medallion on the focus wheel even fell off. David Bushnell may not have started the outsourcing to Asia thing, but he probably perfected it. In the intervening 37 years since I bought the 7x26's, Bushnell has changed hands twice and when that happens any possibility of repairing my Customs are long gone. Luckily, I purchased a LNIB identical pair about 15 years ago.
On the flip side, when my 15 year old 2nd gen 7x30 SLC's began growing the Dreaded Crystals, a phone call to Swaro's repair facility--located right here in the USA--resulted in my 7x30's being entirely updated and landing on my front porch three weeks later.
When my 25+ year old 1st gen 8x30 SLC's focus became notchy, they were sent off to Swaro and three days after I put them in the mail I received an email from Swaro laying out two options; Swaro would restore the binocular back to original condition for free, but the email pointedly mentioned that the 1st gen SLC's "were not up to current Swarovski standards", or I could have a full update, including the latest prisms--for $500.
Now, I could have probably found a pair of Asian semi-alphas for $500, but the fact that Swaro has demonstrated to myself and friends the quality of their CS and warranty, and their business model that continues to include the ability to update previous optics makes the choice easy for me. Plus Swaro has gone to the effort of a fullhouse repair facility right here in the USA.
Most of the "new" optics companies are more of a re-seller of Asian optics than a company who makes optics (and yes I am aware the alphas make use of the other manufacturers also), but there is a lot more assurance that some of these optics companies will be around and servicing their optics when others may not be.
I'm decidedly middle class, even for the rural west, and it makes a difference for me to have a reasonable assurance for my investment (regardless if it's a $400 or a $2000 optic I buy) that companies will still be around and actually have somebody who speaks English to answer the phone.
My 30mm SLC's aren't as good as the 32mm Ultravids, Victorys, or ELs I've compared them to, but they are as good or better than the second tier "almost" alphas I've had a chance to look through. When it comes to optics, I have learned from personal experience and through experiences of friends the value of customer service and warranty. I think those things weigh significantly into the equation.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Casey,
All good points. In fact one of the Asian companies just mentioned, the one which sold the 10x42's I gave to my Alaskan guide in 2009, folded a year or so ago--because other, larger companies had "discovered" the same factory, and were now selling basically the same thing for a little less money.
However, when a friend (a very successful lawyer who still likes to save money) asked my opinion on bargain binoculars in 2012, I recommended a certain Asian brand. He looked through them, and looked through some alphas, and figured he could buy two of the Asians for less than one of the alphas. So he did, figuring the second was a good guarantee. He's still using the first one, and yes, he hunts a lot. (Oh, and the company selling the Asians is still in business, and offers a very good guarantee. I've never had to use it, while using several of their scopes and binoculars pretty hard.)
I've owned two of those older 30mm-SLC's, and eventually they did become second-tier--but unlike you, I had a chance to carefully compare them to many of what you call "second-tier" binoculars, and even 15 years ago they did not surpass them. But whatever.
Again, I've found it interesting that for many years Japanese cameras have dominated the professional photography business, where optics are far more often compared via the baseline of photo sales than by what hunters believe they see. Yet somehow Japanese-made binoculars can never equal those made by a very few companies in central Europe, and in fact some other binoculars made in central Europe by other long-time optics manufacturers somehow don't rate the same, even when they get great reviews on bird-watching websites, where binoculars are THE major tool of that sport--and some of those other companies have made parts, lenses and even complete optics for alpha companies.
But don't get me wrong. Three of the binoculars I have no intention of replacing, and hunt with often, are my Zeiss Victory 8x42, Swarovski EL 10x42, and Leica 8+12x42 Duovid. They all great glass, and if somebody can afford them, why not buy them? But I have had the opportunity, both in the field and under more controlled conditions, to test some recent, relatively inexpensive Asian binoculars with all three, and while the Asian stuff didn't quite match the alphas in some minor ways, they were very damned good. And certainly better than the best alpha stuff from 25 years ago.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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MD, who makes the best 15X56 binocular?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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At the moment, damned if I know. But wouldn't bet against Swarovski.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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At the moment, damned if I know. But wouldn't bet against Swarovski. Are the Meopta’s close to Swarovski 15’s?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I will keep my Swarovski's and Leica's. You only go around once. Binoculars are like chain saws. There are only a view brands that are worth buying.
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I remember an article a few years back where Phil did some controlled testing throughout the season at his place. If I remember correctly he had everyone who came up that summer test the Alpha brands along with a few other brands of binoculars. Its been a long time ago that I read that but I think he said Zeiss was the overall winner.
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Campfire Kahuna
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DLSguide,
Good to know. Guess I'll quit testing various scopes, bullets, rifles, etc. based on the opinions of Campfire members who've never tried them.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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John,
Have you called out any of the second tier binos that compare with the alphas in any of your articles or books? It would be great to compare some of the current offerings.
Concerning Japanese camera lens, I have learned--whether we're talking toys or tools--a company may make the best type of tool X, but not necessarily the best tool Y.
And Swarovski's 1st gen CL's are a good example of Swaro's attempt at a 2nd tier bino that didn't measure up to a LOT of other 2nd tier binos that cost less.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Casey,
I keep comparing all sorts of binoculars, and have been writing about such comparisons for over 25 years now both in articles and books. But apparently many people on this thread keep missing what I said in this post--that for the last 25 years optics have been in a state of constant flux. Which is why, after my first optics book appeared in 1999, I turned down a deal to write another book that would supposedly compare just about any hunting optics made.
My first book did have some comparisons, based on tests made by DEVA, the quasi--governmental German organization that tested a bunch of scopes. But any such comparison would be invalid "next year," the reason I turned the deal down. They talked somebody else into doing it, and the book immediately disappeared.
Instead, my first book described ways to test optics yourself, so hunters could go into a big sporting good store and make valid comparisons, other than what name was on the outside of the binocular. Which is why that book kept selling for years, though 15 years later I published another, to catch up with recent trends.
Yes, Japanese camera lenses vary in quality, as do binoculars with the same brand name on the outside. Which is exactly what I pointed out to others on this thread already. But apparently many simply can't comprehend that point, or choose to believe that even the most mediocre optics with a certain name on the outside are far better than anything else. Or the opposite, that anything NOT made by certain optics companies can't possibly be worth buying.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Excellent article and followup John. Too bad some cannot read what is written, as written.......
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JG,
Ha! I did read that thread--and then, because I also "collect" optics, figured out that I also might have $35,000 in optics "other than scopes." Somehow they keep showing up, so I can compare various brands--and have others compare them as well. How does a WWI E L Lietz compare with others of its day.
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I don't have access to many of the brands out there to test in person so what mid tier binocs that compete with the "alphas" are recommended by the crew here?
“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
― G. Orwell
"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?"
_Eileen Clarke
"Unjust authority confers no obligation of obedience."
- Alexander Hamilton
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Mule Deer,
You have written a time or two about the favorable performance/price relationship of the Leupold Yosemite Porro-prism 6x30. Do you have any experience, knowledge, or opinion of the Yosemite 8x30 or 10x30? I'm currently thinking hard about the 8x30.
Thanks,
Gun Doc
Clinging to guns & religion since 1959
Keyboards make people braver than alcohol
Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience
Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness"
More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
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Good to know. I've never been able to afford Euro alpha glass.
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The older gold ring Leupold binoculars with the individual eye adjustments have been and still are my favorite. I am in no way any kind of expert on binoculars such as John is and I sure enjoyed his post. Thank you John. I do have a question you may know the answer to. Recently I bought a pair of Burris 8X32 Signature Series from a Fire member. I really like these binoculars and wondered if these were actually made by Pentax and have you ever tried a pair?
Thanks
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I don't have access to many of the brands out there to test in person so what mid tier binocs that compete with the "alphas" are recommended by the crew here?
IMHO, as far as an overall package, the Meostar HD is hard to beat......exceptional build quality, superb glass, great company/warranty backing it up. You'll tear up a Swaro EL waaay before these things fall apart. As far as pure optics, the Tract Toric is very hard to beat. Great build, outstanding glass, a very smooth operator.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I don't have access to many of the brands out there to test in person so what mid tier binocs that compete with the "alphas" are recommended by the crew here?
I don't know about newer brands, but definitely give the Meopta Meostar HD a serious look.
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Campfire Kahuna
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K22,
The new Burris Signature HD binoculars are made by Kamakura Optical, a very good Japanese factory. I have an 8x42 and am very impressed, both with the optics and light weight. made possible with modern synthetics.
In general, most Asian optics sellers such as Pentax do not "make" anything themselves. Instead they contract with actual manufacturers like Kamakura Optical and Light Optical, both Japanase, or plants in other Asian countries, whether China or elsewhere. That's also true of many other optics sellers around the world, including Bushnell. In fact, that's how Bushnell got started: Dave Bushnell went to Japan and contracted with Light Optical to make riflescopes resembling the then American-made Weavers.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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JG, one hard secret to budget glass is get the lower power bino rather than the high power glass. Low power binos don't magnify glass impurity and often is difficult to see much difference over higher powered binos costing 10 times as much. It's the reason the 6 power yosimites work so well. The poor fella that had so much trouble with the budget binos absolutely insisted on high magnification which totally screwed him from the start! I realize you likely understand this concept very well and so does JB but it wasn't mentioned in the MDs writeup. Since it is a key factor to getting a budget bino that works well I feel it's worth mentioning. Trystan
Last edited by Trystan; 12/05/18.
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
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On a mostly related note, how do these companies that are contracting out manufacturing do development and testing? I understand these manufacturing plants can make whatever you spec, but how do the companies come up with their spec, do testing, engineering? Do they have facilities for testing and design work or are they badging designs the manufacturer already offers?
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I believe the Zeiss Conquest HD bino is made by Kamakura.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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JG and mathman, thanks for the input. I'll look a little closer at the Meoptas.
“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
― G. Orwell
"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?"
_Eileen Clarke
"Unjust authority confers no obligation of obedience."
- Alexander Hamilton
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There were several inferences that were directed at me that I feel were wrong:
1) I have no experience with looking through mid tier non Alpha Binoculars. I have had about 10 years of experience working with customers to get them the best binoculars that they can afford. That means I sell and recommend to customers many, many, many more Vortex Diamondbacks than Swarovski EL Fieldpros. I use a whole plethora of tests and methods to find the best binocular for each specific client. This is using index points on our binocular testing cart, the 26 meter dollar test, investigation of CA using a high powered flashlight, looking at imperfections of the glass by looking through the objectives, taking the client outside to look at nearby and distant index points in different light and weather conditions and more. Vortex Diamondbacks, Burris Signature HDs or Nikon Monarch 3s are really a very good starting point for many people looking at binoculars with a budget. However, at this price point binoculars are much more individuals and there are good ones and bad ones. Top glass like Swarovski ELs have very little variability in the manufacture and while each pair should be carefully examined they generally have few flaws or imperfections
2) Zeiss Terra EDs are not Alpha binoculars. Zeiss Terra HDs use German optical components but they do not compare to the German made Conquest HD, HT or SF binoculars. They perform about like Diamondbacks.
3) Zeiss, Leica or Swarovski will take a great deal of attention if something is not right with a brand new binocular. but other companies like Nikon or Vortex will tell us just to give the customer another pair of binoculars from our inventory. They will not go into great detail asking us what was the serial number and problems with the binocular. A lot of people will dump on Leica but you just have to talk to the right person in customer service and they will handle issues promptly and effectively.
4) You do notice the difference of the very best flagship binoculars when you are spotting animals at a great distance. Most binoculars can give you a decent idea of game animals when you are 500 to 1200 yards. But flagship alphas that are used right operate at a different level in identifying game like bears, goats and sheep from great distances 1 mile to 5 miles away. Alpha spotters are more important than Alpha binoculars but I would argue that you use your binoculars more.
5) Most assistant guides and packers that work in Alaska are not from Alaska do not have the financial capital to buy flagship binoculars. They are generally good at what they do but I would not count on the quality of an assistant guides gear on a hunt that you pay much money for. We offer a significant outfitter discount and outfitters come in and buy their assistant guides binoculars that are to be used in bulk. We see many of these same binoculars in for repairs or returned for higher quality binoculars.
6)There are fanboys and fangirls for each brand. Nobody who really gets into optics should assume that a binocular made by a particular brand is better than another binocular of another brand no matter what the brand. Your experience with binoculars is an individual thing. Some people are blessed with a resting pulse rate of under 50, extremely good eyes and great health and are able to use less expensive binoculars better than somebody with eye problems, less optimal health and a caffeine addiction. Your health makes a difference in how well you can spot animals. Its another reason to go to the gym, get your eyes checked and to practice binocular use like you do with shooting your hunting rifle and its small caliber companion. Not everything in optics is necessary a rule but more a series of guidelines. I apologize if I seem to be pedantic. I am not. I appreciate everybody who likes the outdoors and want to help them enjoy the outdoors.
7)This has been a very good thread but another thing that might be lost on folks is that if you live in the hinterlands you might have to buy up because its a terrible pain to return anything up here or out where you live. You try to buy the best and most dependable optics that you can. This is why the old 10X40 Zeiss Roof Prisms with rubber coatings and the gold ring Leupold Binoculars( that Leupold has said are too expensive for them to produce in the present )are so highly praised. They were very good and very dependable. Really good fitted boots are the most important gear item that you can have but optics are a close second.
Last edited by kaboku68; 12/05/18.
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Zeiss Conquest HD binoculars are made in Germany.
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There were several inferences that were directed at me that I feel were wrong:
1) I have no experience with looking through mid tier non Alpha Binoculars. I have had about 10 years of experience working with customers to get them the best binoculars that they can afford. That means I sell and recommend to customers many, many, many more Vortex Diamondbacks than Swarovski EL Fieldpros. I use a whole plethora of tests and methods to find the best binocular for each specific client. This is using index points on our binocular testing cart, the 26 meter dollar test, investigation of CA using a high powered flashlight, looking at imperfections of the glass by looking through the objectives, taking the client outside to look at nearby and distant index points in different light and weather conditions and more. Vortex Diamondbacks, Burris Signature HDs or Nikon Monarch 3s are really a very good starting point for many people looking at binoculars with a budget. However, at this price point binoculars are much more individuals and there are good ones and bad ones. Top glass like Swarovski ELs have very little variability in the manufacture and while each pair should be carefully examined they generally have few flaws or imperfections
2) Zeiss Terra EDs are not Alpha binoculars. Zeiss Terra HDs use German optical components but they do not compare to the German made Conquest HD, HT or SF binoculars. They perform about like Diamondbacks.
3) Zeiss, Leica or Swarovski will take a great deal of attention if something is not right with a brand new binocular. but other companies like Nikon or Vortex will tell us just to give the customer another pair of binoculars from our inventory. They will not go into great detail asking us what was the serial number and problems with the binocular. A lot of people will dump on Leica but you just have to talk to the right person in customer service and they will handle issues promptly and effectively.
4) You do notice the difference of the very best flagship binoculars when you are spotting animals at a great distance. Most binoculars can give you a decent idea of game animals when you are 500 to 1200 yards. But flagship alphas that are used right operate at a different level in identifying game like bears, goats and sheep from great distances 1 mile to 5 miles away. Alpha spotters are more important than Alpha binoculars but I would argue that you use your binoculars more.
5) Most assistant guides and packers that work in Alaska are not from Alaska do not have the financial capital to buy flagship binoculars. They are generally good at what they do but I would not count on the quality of an assistant guides gear on a hunt that you pay much money for. We offer a significant outfitter discount and outfitters come in and buy their assistant guides binoculars that are to be used in bulk. We see many of these same binoculars in for repairs or returned for higher quality binoculars.
6)There are fanboys and fangirls for each brand. Nobody who really gets into optics should assume that a binocular made by a particular brand is better than another binocular of another brand no matter what the brand. Your experience with binoculars is an individual thing. Some people are blessed with a resting pulse rate of under 50, extremely good eyes and great health and are able to use less expensive binoculars better than somebody with eye problems, less optimal health and a caffeine addiction. Your health makes a difference in how well you can spot animals. Its another reason to go to the gym, get your eyes checked and to practice binocular use like you do with shooting your hunting rifle and its small caliber companion. Not everything in optics is necessary a rule but more a series of guidelines. I apologize if I seem to be pedantic. I am not. I appreciate everybody who likes the outdoors and want to help them enjoy the outdoors.
7)This has been a very good thread but another thing that might be lost on folks is that if you live in the hinterlands you might have to buy up because its a terrible pain to return anything up here or out where you live. You try to buy the best and most dependable optics that you can. This is why the old 10X40 Zeiss Roof Prisms with rubber coatings and the gold ring Leupold Binoculars( that Leupold has said are too expensive for them to produce in the present )are so highly praised. They were very good and very dependable. Really good fitted boots are the most important gear item that you can have but optics are a close second. Excellent post, I agree completely. Here in Canada, guides buy their own gear, (as opposed to the outfitter buying it for them) and luckily the three Alpa companies offer us a pretty good discount. When I first started guiding back in the early 80s I used mid grade optics, but soon found out I could actually save money by buying the best. I realize not everyone uses their glass as much as a guide so for some its not worth it. I do know if you hunt in Yukon or northern BC, there is a very good chance your guide will have top shelf optics.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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kabuko,
You are a real piece of work. Where did I ever say that Zeiss Terras are "alpha" glass?
The "alpha" brand binocular that did not compare well with my Chinese-built binocular was European-made.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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For myself I have found like many other have said, I have to look through each pair myself. Many supposed "Alpha" bino's often don't appear to be as good as some cheaper brands. Given available money that is something I consider. The age old question, how good is good enough, given the money to be spent. I don't often use bino's when I hunt, normally in tight dense woods where 50 yards is about as long a shot that is presented. I have a pair of Minox 6.5X32IF that have served me well. Many don't like the Independent focus, but for me it is set and forget from about 20 yards to infinity. I'm sure there are better ones, but these seem good enough. If my hunting changes I would consider a better pair. I have also found that most anything over 10 power is not very practical without a tripod.
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How do the "cheap" binoculars compare when it come to eye strain when used for extended periods, specifically when used with a tripod? I've been hearing a lot about how using a tripod with 10x and up can be a "game changer" when glassing and have been looking at the 15x range binoculars. Any opinions of the Nikon Monarch 5 16x56's?
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Interesting thread, but I have a favor to ask. Mostly the only actual brand names mentioned here are the big three European ones while the Asian glass is referred to only by that generic name, Asian. One post mentioned Burris HD's but that's about all I've seen as far as actual brand names the glass from various factories is sold under.
So, unless it's verboten could you be more specific about exactly which brand names and hopefully specific models of Asian glass compare favorably with the best Zeiss/Swaro/Leica's? I understand the various makers with non-Asian names have many or all of their binoculars made by Asian factories but that still leaves potential buyers guessing as to exactly which ones you're talking about. I know Nikon makes some great binoculars (I've owned several of theirs) but they and Pentax are the only Japanese names I'd know of, and don't know any Chinese or Philipine brand names at all.
On a slight tangent, this is partly why I bought my Leica Trinovids back in 2000, an 8x42 and an 8x32 which have given years of great service. Had tried a bunch of different models by Burris (their old 7x35 porro from the early 90's was terrific for the price range, I'm pretty sure that was made by Pentax) and a bunch of Nikons and Swarovskis, but figured at that time that the only way to be assured of getting the absolute top of the heap at the time was to go with the prestige name.
I understand what you're saying about how the "cheap" binoculars have gotten a lot better and quite possibly have left my 18 year old Trinovids in the dust of time but without specific names and models one is still left wondering exactly which "Asian" glass to look for. If there are too many to list then even a random list of the better ones would be helpful.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Its really the big four rather than the big three when it comes to alpha binoculars. Nikon SE Edges are alpha flagship binoculars and compare to ELs, Ultravids or SFs. They are priced accordingly.
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Don't know if that's addressed to my post but yes, Nikon is a brand name to recognize. I've had two of their Superior E series although that was back in the late 90's. At that time they were optically excellent binoculars but didn't have some features that were important to me as a hunter taking them out in wet weather or where they could be bumped around a lot.
But to summarize my post, what would be very helpful is to list some specific brand names and models to look for when trying to get near top dog quality without spending top dog prices.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Vortex Vipers are a good deal and a winner when you are either active or former military and buy them through GovX or Experticity. You get 35-40% off of retail prices.
Zeiss Conquest HDs sometimes go on sale for about 550.00 on Experticity.
Guides or Retail Pro Staff can get Leupolds for 50% cost on line through their prostaff program the BX4-Guide Pros are excellent binoculars for that price. Cameraland NY offers a huge number of MIC mid tier binoculars and deals in German Minox, Czech Meopta, Athlon, Pentax, Japanese Kowa and Bushnell. Doug or Neil will find you the best binocular for the dollar and I feel that they represent the best optics department in the US and probably the world. SWFA is also a good group to work with but they are not as first name person level. I have purchased stuff from the Samplelist was not disappointed.
However for most MIC, I would go to Doug.
That being said I have observed people getting amazing deals on top shelf binoculars if you ask for 10% off. Sometimes a manager or store manager will bend and it is amazing what people will do to get that kind of bump in sales when sales are slow in the off season.
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I would like to see a chart ranking the different glass but this would be difficult to do. It would take a panel of several people due to eyesight variations and subjectivity and then all the models would get changed before the evaluation is complete.
The Nikons did very well on color transmission which is critical for birding. Some of even the Alpha glass will have a slight blue or other colored tinge in certain light situations.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Thank you for taking the time to write this. Great article.
To me the 3 most undiscovered (due to lack of marketing) is Hawke, Kowa and Meopta. Great glass just not "Main stream" brands
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The comment re: birdwatcher forum reviews is very relevant. Those folks know and use good glass. Several years ago, a birder friend of my wife recommended Brunton Echo 8x42s as an exceptional value. I bought her a pair and later bought myself a pair at a deep discount when they were replaced by a newer model. I have used them for 10+ years and only recently upgraded to Leicas. Another bino that I considered was the new Burris Signature HD. Mule Deer reviewed them in RLN and a friend of mine bought a pair. Not sure if the Leica is that much better than the Signature HD, but that’s what I bought from Doug. There is so much good glass out there it is sometimes hard to choose. Happy Trails
PS: buy the best. Your kids will appreciate it at the estate sale
Last edited by WAM; 12/06/18.
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Great article, MD.
In the late 90's through mid-2000s, I worked as a sales rep. I handled two of the 'alpha' glass companies - Leica and Swarovski. When I left that rep group, I kept my scopes. All of those scopes sold for $1000-$1500 or more. I recently did a side-by-side test of a 2000's era Leica and a Zeiss HD5 from 3 years ago. The Zeiss I picked up when they were starting to clear them out and paid around $700 for. The Leica's had a retail of $1300 or so. The Zeiss gave a sharper rendition of things I looked at. Birds, bricks on neighbors houses, leaves on a live oak etc. Color-wise, I could see little, if any difference. That evening, I went out in near-dark and looked again. The Zeiss again had a bit of an edge.
Glass has come a long way in a short amount of time. The low-end stuff we suffered with 20-30 years ago we wouldn't touch now in comparison to what we have available.
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Thanks for an interesting and informative article and for the discussion that followed. I have one experience to share that explains an issue that I have not seen posted here, or anywhere else on optics forums for that matter.
About 15 years ago I went sheep hunting in the Yukon. My guide seems to have very good "game eyes" and used a pair of the very best Leica roof prism 10x42 binoculars. I was using a modest pair of Bushnell porro prism 10x42's. I was amazed at what my guide could spot, partly because he had the experience and I assumed also because he had better binoculars. He offered to let me look through his binoculars a few times. I inadvertently insulted him him when I informed him I couldn't tell any difference between his beloved Leica and my Bushnell.
A year later I had my vision corrected with laser surgery, adjusting both eyes. I suddenly could appreciate the small but real differences in definition between different quality lenses. I had never known or imagined anything else but the poorly defined vision I had before the surgery, and before the surgery I was not able to utilize the advantages that alpha glass offers because of the limitations of my vision. I suspect that there are many like me, and if they are looking through the best lenses in the world with eyes that cannot see the difference, all the $$$$ and the technology in the world is a waste for them.
I now use a pair of Swarovski 8.5x42 EL binoculars that I think are very wonderful, and my old Bushnells, although perfectly OK for most things, get used as spares.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Doug,
Thanks! Haven't tried a Kowa for a while, but was impressed when I did.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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castnblast,
Yep, difference in eyesight can affect how we see through binoculars. Which is why I've always conducted many tests with a line-up of binoculars (or scopes) and several people, from their 20's on up, and those who've had their eyesight "corrected" with surgery.
I have written about this before, including the fact that even in humans whose eyes test 20/20 (or better) there are differences in binoculars (especially color transmission and pupil expansion) that can make a big difference in how individuals perceive the view through the same binocular.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Mule Deer, thanks for your wisdom and experience. Your answer is just what i would expect and have always received from you. My only other comment is my hope that optics shoppers like I was, who have "sub-optimal" eyesight need not feel pressured to buy expensive optical equipment that they cannot take full advantage of, and top retailers like Camera Land recognize that fact and don't try to "up sell' to people who receive no benefit from spending more money. Another good reason for a wide range of consumer products. Try before you buy, don't just trust someone else's opinion.
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The $80 6x30 Leupold Yosemites are an astonishing bargain. A pair of Nikon Monarchs in 8x42 for under $300 compare very favorably with my ornithologist niece's 8x42 Leicas. Optics have come a long way in the past 20 years.
You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
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I am not limited nearly as much by price/quality, alpha, mid-range, or whatever - as I am by intra-ocular distance - most bino's go to 75 mm.
My wide-set eyeballs need ~ 77 mm, therefore I am VERY limited in availability. Minox has been the best I've found FOR ME.
I've always been a curmudgeon - now I'm an old curmudgeon.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Mule Deer. About 15 years ago, I went into a "bird store" and looked thru the binoculars they had in stock. There was one that I looked thru that gave me that "WOW" we hear about. It was the Pentax you talked about in your first post. I have not looked thru any since that gave me the same view of things. My eyesight isn't great, which may have an effect on how I view things thru binoculars, but the majority I have looked thru seem very similar (really nice overall with nothing to complain about). I attribute this to a large extent to the fact that the great influx in new optics companies has caused the glass makers to create much better glass on the whole in recent years. Before, there were cheap binoculars and really good binoculars with not a lot of overlap. Since Zen Ray and so many others hit the market, there is a very fuzzy line separating good and very good optics and prices generally have lowered. A quality optic that would sell for $1000 if manufactured in Europe can sell for a fraction of that if made in China. And if quality control is held to a high level, the finished product can be of equal quality as well.
I wish that I could have afforded the Pentax back in the day as I still remember the feeling looking thru them, but there are so many really good binoculars today I am sure I can find another "wow" binocular and probably at a much lower price.
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joe6555
Likewise about 20 years ago I was in a LGS and looking at some binoculars when I picked up a used Optolyth 8x32 porro. Looking out the back door I could see a brushy hill about 2 miles away. This was during the fall after most of the leaves were gone. Through all the previous binos the leafless bushes looked more like fuzzy blobs when I looked though those Optolyth they looked like individual limbs and twigs I was amazed, had I had $400 I would have bought them on the spot but alas it was not to be.
Ed
A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.
The worst slaves are those that put the chains on themselves.
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John:
Years ago (15'ish?) I bough the Pentax WCF 8x42's you recommended. From Doug even! Love them. That said as my eyes deteriorate with age I find myself flipping my eyeglasses up and down to get the things in correct focus, so a bit rickety of a process.
The Pentaxes replaced some old "glasses on" binoculars (mebbe Bushnell's?) that were relegated to reserve status. But they were DESIGNED for eyeglass wearers.
Question: Following the theme of your article, are there good "cheap" binoculars out there actually designed for eyeglass wearers?
Thanks!
Blu_Cs
Carry what you’re willing to fight with - Mackay Sagebrush
Perfect is the enemy of good enough
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Thanks John, I like this type of conversation. Hunters needs to change from situation to situation, sheep hunters will spend the extra money for a minimal upgrade. You might look through them for 2 hours at a time, any advantage in viewing time could find that lamb tip that turns into the ram. For me I would take my old beaten .270 with a old fixed power scope and a state of the art binocular. I carry a decent compact spotting scope too. Whitetail hunters choose differently- different needs.
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Campfire Kahuna
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comerade,
I think you would be surprised by some of the lower-priced binoculars. I've glass for hours through many of them.
Eyestrain can be caused by many things, including poor collimation of the two barrels, or not being able to "bend" the binocular barrels close enough or wide enough for your interpupillary distance. But often it's also due to the amount of "fuzz" around the edges of the field of view. This occurs in ALL binoculars, but in very good binoculars is extremely small. If the fuzz extends very far into the FOV, however, long-term glassing will result in eyestrain, due to the eyes trying to focus constantly, even though the FOV is sharp in the middle.
I've tested some lower-priced binoculars where the outer 1/3 of the FOV is fuzzy. I call this "donut vision," where only the center of the FOV is sharp. But there are a bunch of lower-than-alpha priced binoculars these days that have minimal edge-fuzz, so little you have to go looking for it to notice.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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A word of caution to prospective buyers of the Yosemite 6x30 glass. Know your inter-pupillary distance, or look through them before you mail order them. The Gods, to amuse themselves, placed my eyes so far to Port and Starboard that many otherwise good quality binocs just won't work. Flintlocke.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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A word of caution to prospective buyers of the Yosemite 6x30 glass. Know your inter-pupillary distance, or look through them before you mail order them. The Gods, to amuse themselves, placed my eyes so far to Port and Starboard that many otherwise good quality binocs just won't work. Flintlocke. Ever try a monocular instead? It might be a viable option.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Thanks for the tip, but I seem to be prone to eye fatigue when using one eye, at least during extended sessions at the spotting scope or rifle scope. I just gotta be aware of IP distance. Got all in a lather about getting the Yosemite's and before that Meade Safari Pro's and before that the 8.5x42 Audubon's (you can tell I'm a Porro guy?). Tons of good glass out there, but many of the Asian designs aren't concerned with the small percentage of folks on the high end of IP distance. Euro designs tend to accommodate us. Yea, I'm a slow learner.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Campfire Tracker
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A word of caution to prospective buyers of the Yosemite 6x30 glass. Know your inter-pupillary distance, or look through them before you mail order them. The Gods, to amuse themselves, placed my eyes so far to Port and Starboard that many otherwise good quality binocs just won't work. Flintlocke. Ever try a monocular instead? It might be a viable option. Who makes a good monocular? Serious inquiry.
BE STRONG IN THE LORD, AND IN HIS MIGHTY POWER. ~ Ephesians 6:10
Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance,
and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Good article but to compare apples to apples, when I found this forum you could get top shelf alpha glass from Doug for $1000, I bought several different pairs back then. Today the top alpha glass is $2000-$2500 + and spotters are in excess of $3000. IMO there’s no justification for even a dedicated hunter to spend the money on top shelf alpha glass these days unless the price is a non issue and they really feel they need it. I buy quality stuff but this fireman isn’t spending $2,000 + on Binos. I’ve got Meoptas that I’ve acquired second hand for a fraction of new price and a pair of 6x Yosemite’s when I want smaller. It’s nice to,have choices but sadly the Binos that were alpha glass of 20 years ago aren’t as good as many $400 Binos these days.
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A word of caution to prospective buyers of the Yosemite 6x30 glass. Know your inter-pupillary distance, or look through them before you mail order them. The Gods, to amuse themselves, placed my eyes so far to Port and Starboard that many otherwise good quality binocs just won't work. Flintlocke. Ever try a monocular instead? It might be a viable option. Who makes a good monocular? Serious inquiry. I don't know about high end stuff, but I used to carry a Simmons 8×21mm monocular.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Kahuna
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Good article JB ! Thanks!
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Thanks for the article JB,
Good timing as... I'm looking for a pair of binoculars that are both a smaller package and lighter than my Leupold 8x42 'Pinnacles'.
Thinking 8x32's and want to stay under $500.
Any recommendations?
Thanks,
Jerry
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Campfire Ranger
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Thanks for the tip, but I seem to be prone to eye fatigue when using one eye, at least during extended sessions at the spotting scope or rifle scope. I just gotta be aware of IP distance. Got all in a lather about getting the Yosemite's and before that Meade Safari Pro's and before that the 8.5x42 Audubon's (you can tell I'm a Porro guy?). Tons of good glass out there, but many of the Asian designs aren't concerned with the small percentage of folks on the high end of IP distance. Euro designs tend to accommodate us. Yea, I'm a slow learner. I wound up getting a Minox binocular for just that reason. I have NO idea who else builds them with that much intraocular distance - but the Minox are the best I've had, in that regard.
I've always been a curmudgeon - now I'm an old curmudgeon.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Thanks for the article JB,
Good timing as... I'm looking for a pair of binoculars that are both a smaller package and lighter than my Leupold 8x42 'Pinnacles'.
Thinking 8x32's and want to stay under $500.
Any recommendations?
Thanks,
Jerry Jerry, I had the same question and called Cameraland and asked them. Took Doug's advise and am sure glad I did.
BE STRONG IN THE LORD, AND IN HIS MIGHTY POWER. ~ Ephesians 6:10
Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance,
and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Campfire Tracker
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Thanks for the article JB,
Good timing as... I'm looking for a pair of binoculars that are both a smaller package and lighter than my Leupold 8x42 'Pinnacles'.
Thinking 8x32's and want to stay under $500.
Any recommendations?
Thanks,
Jerry Jerry, I had the same question and called Cameraland and asked them. Took Doug's advise and am sure glad I did.
BE STRONG IN THE LORD, AND IN HIS MIGHTY POWER. ~ Ephesians 6:10
Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance,
and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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I have 2000.00 binoculars and have had lesser.I will keep the two pair of German bins that have. I would down grade my rifle scope and spotting scope before ever considering changing. I hunt sheep by preference and hunker down to glass for hours at a time. If at sometime good quality stabilized bins become available , I will look at them. Better than Cannon's offerings
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I bought some Pentax 8x43 DCF SP on Mule Deer’s advise a few years ago as the best bang for your buck then. I haven’t been disappointed. Got them from Cameraland as well.
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I like my Leupold Yosemite binos. I have two pairs. Both are 6x30. They work great and are still in good condition. I don't recall when I got them, but I believe that it was the first or second year they were available. The first one was a gift from my wife. I bought the second, should the first pair fail or break.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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I bought Pentax DCF SP binos about 10 years ago for about $525 and they are very, very good.
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Campfire Kahuna
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“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I like my Leupold Yosemite binos. I have two pairs. Both are 6x30. They work great and are still in good condition. I don't recall when I got them, but I believe that it was the first or second year they were available. The first one was a gift from my wife. I bought the second, should the first pair fail or break. ......... I also have two pair of Yosemites, the first of which from when they were a recent introduction. But I sort of "lost" them when the wife commandeered them and she didn't even buy me a pair as a replacement. So in 2016 after retirement I ordered another pair for myself and let her keep the first pair. Have had zero problems with them and the smaller size makes them "kid friendly" .
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That was nice of you.  The two Yosemites are the only binoculars that I own. It's because of my hunting needs. I had others before them - Bushnells - but gave them to my SIL.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Thanks for the article JB,
Good timing as... I'm looking for a pair of binoculars that are both a smaller package and lighter than my Leupold 8x42 'Pinnacles'.
Thinking 8x32's and want to stay under $500.
Any recommendations?
Thanks,
Jerry Try the Nikon Monarch 7 8x30's - ~$375 stunning glass in a very lightweight and compact package. Make sure you are trying the Monarch 7's - the lesser Monarchs are in a different league as well as price point.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Thanks Mule deer! I was in a bind and needed a Bin to replace My Nikon Monarchs I had for 12yrs. Ten miles down the road I'm pulling into a Cabela Store And The first pair I looked through Cabela's HD Intensity 10x50's and the search lasted a whole 5 minutes. $219 later I'm headed back up the hill hunting. While scouting Bulls this September my good friend asked to look through them. He's like how much were these? $219 I said. Wow he said they are quite a bit brighter than mine. Hands me his Vortex Viper HD's and there was no guessing. We agreed the Cabela HD's were at the very least noticeably brighter and cost $300 less. My only complaint they are a lil heavier than my old Nikons. I've one season on the Cabela's now and beat the living chit out of them. Best bang for the buck? I think so. https://www.cabelas.com/product/hun...ntensity-binoculars/2558676.uts?slotId=0
Your Every Liberal vote promotes Socialism and is an
attack on the Second Amendment. You will suffer the consequences.
GOA,Idaho2AIAlliance,AmericanFirearmsAssociation,IdahoTrappersAssociation,FoundationForWildlifeManagement ID and MT.
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Good article, down to earth as usual. As expected, it riled a few snoots into a bit of a lather. Liked that, too.
Now in my 70s, I've always been a cheap skate and haven't leaned towards spending more money, if something a bit less expensive will do. Back in the mid 1970s a buddy and I both had Kmart 10x50s made in Japan. Doubt they cost more than $50 back then and we both used them for decades, mostly while varmint hunting and lots of preseason deer glassing. We were younger then and had better eyes. so we got by with the cheap glass. Anyone that has spent all day glassing for woodchucks, learns to appreciate decent binos.
Years later and with a much better income, he started buying much better glass. One summer we were looking about and he handed me his new B&L 10x50a. Pretty good binos for the time, but I noted they weren't 15 times better than my old Kmarts, as the price suggested.
By the 90s he'd moved onto Zeiss binos and I had a pair of Nikon Monarchs, both 10x50s. I had the same comment after looking thru his Zeiss binos, that I'd had years before with the B&Ls: Good, but not 15 times "gooder". Got a pair of 8x30 Yosemites years ago for Christmas. They are what I have with me from turkey, archery deer and rifle deer seasons. Right now it's flintlock season here in PA, so they're still in use. Love 'em to death. Light, bright and handy. Can't ask much else from a small pair of bines that cost less than $100?
Like to add that I have a Konus 80mm spotting scope. For the money, I think it doesn't give up much to the Kowas that cost far more than it did. Neither do most of those that have looked thru it, unless they have a Kowa? Then it's not even close. ;O)
Last edited by dubePA; 12/29/18.
If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.
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