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#13126415 - 09/12/18 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats?  
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cas6969 Offline
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I've been playing around with "non traditional" loads in my No.1 450/400. Pushing both round nose and spire point Hornady 300r bullets very accurately and very fast... but at this point I have giant varmint bullets, since they were not designed to go this fast. So I decided to try some Barnes TSX's. The Hornady loads seem to match up with Quickload's predictions on velocity and I'm guessing pressures. With the Barnes however I'm getting pressure "signs" much sooner than expected and my velocities are around 200fps slower that predicted by Quickload. A disappointment. If I shoot them at that speed, I might as well just use the much cheaper jacketed bullets at that same speed, down where they'll be fine.

So I do some more reading about where I should be seating the Barnes, instead of just picking an OAL that was close to the others. (though it is the OAL used in Quickload). I don't have the proper tools to measure the chamber/throat and I'm too lazy to find my Cerosafe, so I used the poor man's method of chambering a long loaded round. I was a bit surprised at what I found. (I did it many many times, the bullet isn't pulling back when I eject)

[Linked Image]


Are they all this way? (All 450/400's? All No.1's?) Is it because they're chambered for round nose 400r bullets?

I had been seating to the second driving band. .050" off of this is still going to leave a lot of bullet hanging out there in the wind.

300 BP

#13128150 - 09/13/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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JFE Offline
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Most large game rounds have a fairly long throat. Eg in the 375 H&H and 9.3x62 the throat is approx 3/8" long. In the 458 Win mag its around 1.1" long. Most Weatherby cals have throats that are 3/8" long, whereas they used to have 3/4" long throats back in the 80's. When it originally came out the 458 Lott used to have a long throat like the 458 Win mag but it was later shortened quite a lot.

In some cases it's for chambering long, full diameter RN pills and in other cases it's to allow a smaller case perform like a larger case by quickly dissipating pressure (eg 458 Win mag).

As you have found, in your case it may not be practical to seat the Barnes bullet as recommended for accuracy.

#13272405 - 11/11/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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cas6969 Offline
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Most confusing. I loaded that dummy round in the gun dozens of times. Bullet firm in the case mouth, not loose. Good neck tension and some crimp, chambered the round by tapping it in with a hammer and a punch. Measured exactly the same OAL every time I tested it.

Just for the heck of it I loaded some rounds that length (.050" shorter) only to find they wouldn't chamber!! WTF? (of course after driving 45 minutes to the range) Wouldn't even come close to chambering, 1/4" or more too long.

I'm so very confused at this point. And of course now I can't find that dummy round, I want to measure it and see why it would chamber but the others won't.



So I started the whole thing over from scratch. Came up with a seating depth that was actually SHORTER than the original one I tried with the Barnes bullets. I think I was seating them into the lands.. ever so slightly and that was why the pressure signs showed up early. (?) So for now I have a usable, accurate load that will get me through the season. It's still 100 fps slower than quick load is predicting, but still faster than I really need, so no big loss other than impressive sounding numbers. wink

Last edited by cas6969; 11/11/18.
#13272996 - 11/11/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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swarf Offline
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I may be out of wack on this, but I believe your problem is your bullet. It looks like a Loverin style bullet.

Loverin bullets are cast with a taper so that they self align in the throat and bore. Take a bullet that has been just cast, and try placing it lengthwise in a pair of calipers. I think that you will find it tapered from base to its tip. If it is you are playing with a low velocity/low pressure target bullet. I think you might be trying to make a Chevette into a F250. Or at least trying to put a Chevette type engine into an F250.

I'd get a different bullet mold. Talk to the guys on the cast bullets forum.

#13273228 - 11/11/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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cas6969 Offline
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smile It's a Barnes copper bullet, not cast. All the bullets in question came from the same box.

Alpha

#13273404 - 11/11/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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Since I do not know your reloading objectives,and the 450/400 400 grain Woodleigh bullets are great for DG (including elephants) what is it that you wish to shoot with hyper velocity Barnes bullets that you cannot kill with standard velocity bullets?


CRS, NRA Benefactor Life Member, Whittington Center, TSRA, DWWC, DRSS
Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/
#13273734 - 11/11/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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cas6969 Offline
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Nothing I probably couldldn't kill with a 30-30 or any of the other 40 or so options I have. laugh

But shooting them at traditional velocities, it doesn't do anything that a few other options don't already do. However, shooting them faster makes it do something noting else I have does. Which in and of itself makes it worth keeping. wink

Last edited by cas6969; 11/11/18.
#13275315 - 11/12/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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crshelton Offline
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OK and thank you for the prompt and polite answer.

A friend of mine shoots prairie dogs (and their mounds) with his 1895 .405 WCF - just because he can and he enjoys it!
If he can do it with North Fork bullets, you surely can with your 450/400 and Barnes bullets. Have fun!


CRS, NRA Benefactor Life Member, Whittington Center, TSRA, DWWC, DRSS
Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/
#13275576 - 11/12/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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cas6969 Offline
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The Hornady's shoot great... doing 2700+ fps. But I wouldn't want to shoot anything I planned to eat with them.

#13291055 - 11/19/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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DN1957 Offline
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I knew a guy that shot ground moles with a 450 N.E. out of a #1 just because he could, he'd sit in his aluminum lawn chair and wait for the ground to move then shot at the movement.
Didn't have to hit them the concussion killed them.
Then dug up the solid bullet and reloaded it and shot them again
He tried the same in a 416 Rigby but complained about the slugs going in too deep.

The neighbors thought he was crazy, I thought it was a unique solution to the problem.

He's dead now, I suspect there was celebration at PETA with the death of another big game hunter.

If ya got it shoot it!

Bravo

#13297378 - 11/21/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: DN1957]  
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swarf Offline
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I'd still you to take a good look at the bullet. I Now understand that it is a Barnes Monometal. But still look.

We have known for years that some .264 bullets are two diameter. Do the caliper jaw test I mentioned. Is this bullet tapered or two diameter? Those pressure relief grooves are many, and really go up the bullet to its tip. Secondly: how did you determine your seating depth? When I start with a new bullet I take a cleaning rod and run it down the muzzle to the breech face, and run a pencil line around the rod at the muzzle. Next take bullet and drop into the action until if stops in the throat. Hold it up there with a pistol rod, and again place your cleaning rod down the barrel until it is stopped by your test bullet. Draw a ring around the rod with the pencil again. Take your vernier calipers and measure this distance, and consider it your MAX overall cartridge length.

I know all of this sounds over simple, but it seems to me that you might be missing something that just requires another look. This is the kind of thing that is best walked away from and returned to the next day. This would be a good way to get a different perspective.

I'd love to hear what this exercise shows you - if anything. I just find your problem intriguing.

#13338915 - 12/06/18 Re: 450/400 Ruger #1, long throats? [Re: cas6969]  
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Tarbe Offline
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Originally Posted by cas6969

Are they all this way? (All 450/400's? All No.1's?)




Max OAL in my Boddington Buffalo 450/400 with the 300gr Barnes is 3.85".


USMC 0351

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