Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Montana shoulder season ,poorly run

Some people still don't understand that lower elevations, which are usually privately owned , feed those elk all winter long.The elk move lower,not because all the grass has been grazed, but because most of it is covered with snow too deep to paw thru.This has been going on for a few hundred years at least. The elk feeding on private land eat a lot more forage than they do on public land during the winter.

Another reason they move to private land is too much hunter pressure on public land.They aren't dummies and know where they are safe.

I hunt where mostly sheep are grazed. I find ell very year.

California is great example of cutting out grazing and timber on public land . The old saying "graze, log it or let it burn" holds true.

You can bit*h to your congressman all you want,but when it comes down to it,the ag community carries much more weight.Also the federal government does not control wildlife,each state does. The feds can pass all the laws they want about use of federal lands ,but they can't control wildlife unless it is a protected species. All those mean nasty ranchers have the right to kill all those elk that are eating their forage,but mostly they feed them.

Colorado has such hunts.I disagree on how CPW manages them.Mostly because vouchers are given out to ranchers when crop damage occurs and the rancher decides who hunts,sometimes selling those tags.The general public has no way of finding out who gets those tags.
There are units in Colorado where a person can get two elk tags for public land "A" and "B" tags. Crop damage or cull hunts are "C" tags and you can buy as many as you want.

" don`t forget federal land belongs to all the people of America not just ranchers" You can do anything within legal means to use any federal land,but you have to go to the states to hunt on that land.Something too many people can't get thru their thick skulls.

I think an awful lot of folks fail to realize that success rates in most traditional "elk hunting" states runs in the low 20% range with WY being the outlier in the mid-40% range. That means 1 legal elk every ~5yrs of hunting. Even if you as a non-resident hunt every-other year you're looking at an average of 1 legal elk/decade. WY is higher but it's unlikely you're going to hunt WY every year due to preference points.

Elk hunting isn't like sitting in a stand/blind over a corn-flinger.

It looks to me like the FWP is certainly bowing to pressure(dollars) from ranchers via the state legislature to open up public land to grazing and to reduce elk numbers to non-huntable numbers. Looking at what has been done in 380, 392, 391 and a few other zones nearby that I've hunted over the last decade bear that out. The FWP is giving out more cow tags than there are elk in most of these areas. That is blatant depopulation.

Wolves, sub divisions and 'wilderness' trophy homes are clearly the answer.

Sam, did you know you are a millionaire?

There are too many elk, too many cattle, not enough mule deer.

And a new emerging whitetail population that is most exciting on the Eastern mid Idaho Border.

Any amount of brucellosis in any herd of animals is a " Big Deal" IMO.

It is a shame some one blames successful cow elk hunting on their own inability to harvest an animal during Montanas general season.

Personally I find Montana a total breath of fresh air to big game hunting compared to Idaho! But I am a dick head!

Please hunt Idaho instead!

Pete53, I hope you are more intelligent than your writing skill indicates. Please proofread before posting. A couple of points.With a couple of exceptions, elk numbers are way over projection. Two reasons why. There is a lot of private land that won't allow hunting. The problem is that many of their neighbors that do allow hunting, have to deal with the massive elk herds coming off those locked up properties when winter hits, and the elk head for their haystacks. Second, many of the elk have been living in the irrigated pivots for 5 or 6 generations now. Those elk have been born and raised in the near vicinity and won't leave willingly. There is plenty of grass for cattle and elk on public ground. The elk are not starving. Would you rather eat dry crappy grass in august, or set up camp in an irrigated pivot of alfalfa? There are no perfect solutions, and as long as we want private property rights in this country, we will have to deal with people who won't allow hunting even when they should. All sides will have to give a little. The overall sorry condition of the average elk Hunter here in Montana doesn't help much. More people that want to sit and gripe, than get out and walk and hunt. If you can't at least kill a cow elk here in Montana during a 5 week season, then you haven't hunted very hard.

Ranches in the west are a tremendous land trust for wildlife, sportsmen, and wildlife enthusiast alike. Most ranchers today are land-rich and cash-poor. Folks love to run them down but many live on million dollar plus properties and work for pennies. I don't begrudge them the bit of public grazing that is left on FS land or the vast areas of BLM that is grazed. You run these ranches out of business and the alternative is too often development, 20 acre parcels. What's more is that the truth is the opposite. Studies show that regularly grazed land is healthier year-to-year over ungrazed, overgrown land. You show some evidence that elk are starving in the mountains due to competition with cattle and I'm all ears. Finally, much of the grazing has been cut back due to the clean water act, which closed many areas to public lease. As a population, ranchers are our friends and the friends of wildlife. I don't need free access to all ranch property to recognize the benefit we derive.

Shrap, it is always interesting that folks come here because of the beauty and abundance and then want to fix it. What they might miss is that we've been hunting, ranching, farming, and mining this land as long as we've been here. Is it perfect? No, certainly not. But I'm always hearing these one-aspect solutions that are supposed to solve great issues with little consideration for what the unintended consequences might be.

As for me, I get elk during the general season every year on public land. I don't hunt the shoulder season. However I understand that the shoulder season is designed to drive elk from private holdings and onto public land, thus increasing your opportunities. It seems to me that the OP is barking up the wrong tree. Maybe stop worrying over elk that you can't hunt and go where the elk live that you can hunt?

The OP likely comes from the land of raised permanent "Pinochle" stands, abandoned farmstead woodlots, and 3 acre food plots.

I saw in the bowhunting/crossbow thread that the OP has a 4pt minimum on his hunting property back in WI. I didn't see where he stated that he let folks come in and shoot does or voluntarily moves deer off of his land and onto public land to help provide opportunity for folks hunting public land.

Can you quantify how public lands are in worse shape now than they were 10, 15, or 20 years ago?

I can tell from your sophomoric posts that you have no clue what you're speaking about. You are simply emoting like a hysteric woman.

Educate yourself because you are making a fool of yourself.

Do you have any clue why elk numbers are up?

Do you not understand that a tremendous amount of wildlife population boom in the western states, Montana included, are a result of improvements made to range, both public and private, by ranchers. Yes, those terrible people that you choose to denigrate here. It is no wonder you struggle getting access to hunt anywhere but public lands with an ignorant, chip-on-your-shoulder, uneducated attitude like you have.

Anybody have any General tag shoulder season recommendations?

I never filled my elk tag and am not wanting to buy a non resident B if I don't have to.

Thanks!

I talked to the retired FWP biologist that spent decades managing the Madison-Wall Creek Wildlife Management Area out of Ennis, Montana. Specifically, we talked about grazing allotments on the National Forest and the impact on elk. It was concluded by him that the cattle grazing on the National Forest had virtually no impact on the available grass for elk forage. He also mentioned how the elk moved out of the high country due to snow and weather conditions and not because of lack of grass.

Further, he explained the reasons for shoulder seasons and how landowners were involved in that decision process by FWP. The lies that Brad and Pete want to spread is nothing more than an emotional rant because they want to force landowners to allow them to hunt on private property in the name of game management. You guys need to get more information other than Gallatin Wildlife Federation and other environmentally based organizations that want to overturn private property rights for the sake of personal selfishness.

Nothing but crickets from the gallery I am sure, as our boys that want everything for themselves, realize they are not in the majority for wanting things their way...

So Shrapnel, were you ever prosecuted for defacing public property?

https://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?285848-Does-Anyone-Remember-Larry-Altimus

Because frankly, you've got quite the arrogance to come here and, rather than have a conversation from differing POV's about public property (elk), turn to personal attacks because someone differs with you.

Amazing hypocrisy...

Of course not. You and your butt buddy Kurt are way off base. You keep trying to bring that ridiculous story of defacing property. You haven't even been there and keep trying to make something of it. It is a signature rock face that local ranchers have scratched their names and brands into for decades. That is how we found it, we were told by local ranchers. Somewhere after the fact, there has been a claim that there are petroglyphs in the same are, but it is also under good authority that the so-called petroglyphs were scratched there by those same ranchers.

You have no knowledge of any of this but through Kurt and yet you don't see mine or anyone else's name by the petroglyphs, just in another rock face. Here is another picture of a rock face we defaced, I have found them in various places around the state and they are nothing more than markes of people and their passing by a similar place over time. Go ahead and report this one too...

A couple things: 1) I'm not butt buddies with anybody but I did take those pictures with somebody who goes to church with you. 2) I have been there, know the locals, didn't see any local brands or names - just you and your boys names. 3) Your names are a couple steps from the petroglyphs and there is now a sign there, as it's on USFS land. 4) I didn't "report" anything, but was curious if you got in any trouble.

Now - back to the great elk hunting thread..

+1, no doubt about that last sentence.

100% agreement from me. When you have a conversation rather than a shouting match, the nuances come out.

But in the case of the Shoulder Season, it comes primarily from landowners wanting it all their own way.

Thanks for setting the record straight Greenhorn.

In my experience, whenever someone breezily throws the word "liar" around, they usually are...

And what about those that throw the word 'breezily'?