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If the extraction camming surface is located correctly, you do not have to withdraw the bolt because the cam has done that for you when you lifted the handle. It is true that part of the cocking takes place when the bolt is closed but it is not true that it is normal to have to with draw the bolt for the cocking piece to clear the sear. Also, if the first contact when the bolt is pushed forward is between the cocking piece and sear, you will have a rifle which is likely to slam fire or the sear or sear connector is likely to be damaged if the bolt is operated briskly.
In a perfect world, the extraction cam should engage immediately after the same degree of rotation where the locking lugs clear the closing ramps on the seats. The cam will then withdraw the bolt enough that the cocking piece will clear the sear (before the nose of the cocking piece drops into the detent) while also beginning extraction of the fired cartridge.
The point is, since movement of the bolt is necessary to cock the rifle, anything which moves the bolt does, indeed, affect how re-cocking is accomplished.If the extraction cam is moving the bolt to the rear, as it should, the rifle will re-cock by simply lifting and lowering the bolt handle. If the extraction cam has too much clearance so that it does not move the bolt rearward, the rifle will not re-cock by simply raising and lowering the handle; you will have to withdraw the bolt a little. It also may not extract all that well.
Dans40x,
I'm sorry to have offended you. I have not worked on 10,000 Remington bolts but I have worked on many hundreds over forty-plus years of gunsmithing. I have also built replacement bolts for Remington 40X's and 700's for custom rifles so I'm not totally clueless. GD

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Originally Posted by greydog
If the extraction camming surface is located correctly, you do not have to withdraw the bolt because the cam has done that for you when you lifted the handle. It is true that part of the cocking takes place when the bolt is closed but it is not true that it is normal to have to with draw the bolt for the cocking piece to clear the sear. Also, if the first contact when the bolt is pushed forward is between the cocking piece and sear, you will have a rifle which is likely to slam fire or the sear or sear connector is likely to be damaged if the bolt is operated briskly.
In a perfect world, the extraction cam should engage immediately after the same degree of rotation where the locking lugs clear the closing ramps on the seats. The cam will then withdraw the bolt enough that the cocking piece will clear the sear (before the nose of the cocking piece drops into the detent) while also beginning extraction of the fired cartridge.
The point is, since movement of the bolt is necessary to cock the rifle, anything which moves the bolt does, indeed, affect how re-cocking is accomplished.If the extraction cam is moving the bolt to the rear, as it should, the rifle will re-cock by simply lifting and lowering the bolt handle. If the extraction cam has too much clearance so that it does not move the bolt rearward, the rifle will not re-cock by simply raising and lowering the handle; you will have to withdraw the bolt a little. It also may not extract all that well.
Dans40x,
I'm sorry to have offended you. I have not worked on 10,000 Remington bolts but I have worked on many hundreds over forty-plus years of gunsmithing. I have also built replacement bolts for Remington 40X's and 700's for custom rifles so I'm not totally clueless. GD


Sorry, but you are wrong there. the primary extraction cam does not move the bolt to the rear before the cocking piece is moved far enough to the rear to clear the sear. If it did as you suggest I could not take any 700 bolt and adjust the trigger way light and make it not cock on the simple bolt lift and close and then fix it by adding a bit of weight back on the trigger. And especially when doing it with rifles which have been properly timed.

Last edited by Sitka deer; 11/06/18. Reason: Negligent discharge on my part

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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by greydog
If the extraction camming surface is located correctly, you do not have to withdraw the bolt because the cam has done that for you when you lifted the handle. It is true that part of the cocking takes place when the bolt is closed but it is not true that it is normal to have to with draw the bolt for the cocking piece to clear the sear. Also, if the first contact when the bolt is pushed forward is between the cocking piece and sear, you will have a rifle which is likely to slam fire or the sear or sear connector is likely to be damaged if the bolt is operated briskly.
In a perfect world, the extraction cam should engage immediately after the same degree of rotation where the locking lugs clear the closing ramps on the seats. The cam will then withdraw the bolt enough that the cocking piece will clear the sear (before the nose of the cocking piece drops into the detent) while also beginning extraction of the fired cartridge.
The point is, since movement of the bolt is necessary to cock the rifle, anything which moves the bolt does, indeed, affect how re-cocking is accomplished.If the extraction cam is moving the bolt to the rear, as it should, the rifle will re-cock by simply lifting and lowering the bolt handle. If the extraction cam has too much clearance so that it does not move the bolt rearward, the rifle will not re-cock by simply raising and lowering the handle; you will have to withdraw the bolt a little. It also may not extract all that well.
Dans40x,
I'm sorry to have offended you. I have not worked on 10,000 Remington bolts but I have worked on many hundreds over forty-plus years of gunsmithing. I have also built replacement bolts for Remington 40X's and 700's for custom rifles so I'm not totally clueless. GD


Sorry, but you are wrong there. the primary extraction cam does not move the bolt to the rear before the cocking piece is moved far enough to the rear to clear the sear. If it did as you suggest I could not take any 700 bolt and adjust the trigger way light and make it not cock on the simple bolt lift and close and then fix it by adding a bit of weight back on the trigger. And especially when doing it with rifles which have been properly timed.


This action that I’m talking about has a properly adjusted trigger with a 3 lb trigger pull weight. If the same problem is still happening with a properly adjusted trigger, would you then think that it is not properly timed? Or still consider it normal to have to pull the bolt back a little further after lifting the bolt handle all the way up? Thanks.

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Listen to Dan, he knows absolutely what he is talking about. IMO, you probably have set your trigger lower than it should go because the springs are heavy and stiff. They lack range to be adjusted light and still provide enough range to reliably move the trigger when the bolt is lifted. A lighter trigger spring will be shorter in compression at the desired 3# setting so it will have more consistent pressure during cocking where the heavier spring will not be compressed enough to move the connector back. Who adjusted the trigger?

The trigger cocking is not a timing issue.


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by greydog
If the extraction camming surface is located correctly, you do not have to withdraw the bolt because the cam has done that for you when you lifted the handle. It is true that part of the cocking takes place when the bolt is closed but it is not true that it is normal to have to with draw the bolt for the cocking piece to clear the sear. Also, if the first contact when the bolt is pushed forward is between the cocking piece and sear, you will have a rifle which is likely to slam fire or the sear or sear connector is likely to be damaged if the bolt is operated briskly.
In a perfect world, the extraction cam should engage immediately after the same degree of rotation where the locking lugs clear the closing ramps on the seats. The cam will then withdraw the bolt enough that the cocking piece will clear the sear (before the nose of the cocking piece drops into the detent) while also beginning extraction of the fired cartridge.
The point is, since movement of the bolt is necessary to cock the rifle, anything which moves the bolt does, indeed, affect how re-cocking is accomplished.If the extraction cam is moving the bolt to the rear, as it should, the rifle will re-cock by simply lifting and lowering the bolt handle. If the extraction cam has too much clearance so that it does not move the bolt rearward, the rifle will not re-cock by simply raising and lowering the handle; you will have to withdraw the bolt a little. It also may not extract all that well.
Dans40x,
I'm sorry to have offended you. I have not worked on 10,000 Remington bolts but I have worked on many hundreds over forty-plus years of gunsmithing. I have also built replacement bolts for Remington 40X's and 700's for custom rifles so I'm not totally clueless. GD


Sorry, but you are wrong there. the primary extraction cam does not move the bolt to the rear before the cocking piece is moved far enough to the rear to clear the sear. If it did as you suggest I could not take any 700 bolt and adjust the trigger way light and make it not cock on the simple bolt lift and close and then fix it by adding a bit of weight back on the trigger. And especially when doing it with rifles which have been properly timed.


Of course you could. If the trigger is adjusted too light to hold, it is adjusted too light to hold. It matters not whether or not the rifle is capable of being cocked by simply raising and lowering the handle. A rifle which does allow the cocking piece to be lowered onto the sear connector will allow a lighter setting than one which catches the sear before the bolt is fully forward and contacting at the bridge but if there is insufficient spring pressure on the trigger or insufficient sear engagement, it will follow down, regardless. If the extraction cam does not retract the bolt enough to clear the sear, you can adjust the trigger until the cows come home (although, just what cows might have to do with it, I can't really say!) and it still won't recock unless you withdraw the bolt slightly.
There is certainly some truth in the assertion that how the bolt is manipulated can also affect the actual cocking sequence. If one tends to put a little forward pressure on the bolt handle, the extraction cam MUST move the bolt back to clear the sear. If one tends to put a slight pressure to the rear, the bolt will naturally move to the rear enough to clear. My feeling is this: even if one pushes hard forward as the bolt handle is lifted and lowered, the extraction cam should move the bolt to the rear enough to reset the sear or sear connector. GD

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mod7rem,
Any Remington 600/660/673/Xp-100/Xp-100R/XR-100/Seven/722/721/700/40X of OEM design are COCK on OPEN when rotating the bolt out of battery.
Pushing fwd/cycling the bolt into battery utilizes a COCK on CLOSE to reset the trigger/connector/firing pin striker.

STRIKER TO SEAR HAND OFF can be re-worked to operate by means that you have been lucky to have not had an accidental discharge to date.
(stop practicing that maneuver before someone gets hurt/killed & wants to sue Remington for being stupid)

Bolt Handle TIMING has nothing to do with firing pin cocking or trigger group operation.


The biggest variable w/ any Remington is the bolt body "TUBE" length prior to pinning & induction brazing the head/lugs to the tube.
The second variable is the changes in bolt handle design from 1962 to present.
Current production "short cam" bolt handles as I've coined them, can NOT be TIMED properly by silver brazing the handle closer to the receiver since there are 5 aspects to TIMING a bolt & handle.


Keep'em in the X ring,
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Just to clarify then: Is it your contention that the trigger parts, specifically, the sear or sear connector, should be the first thing to make contact when the bolt is pushed forward? Further, do you also contend that the location of the bolt handle, specifically, the camming surface, does NOT influence whether or not the sear/connector is the first point of contact when the bolt is pushed forward?
I only ask because it is apparent there is a communication issue at work here. Either one or both of us is not understanding the other. GD

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greydog,
It's not a communication issue between treads,it's a comprehension issue brought upon yourself.

As previously noted-
An UNMOLESTED Remington is COCK on OPEN & COCK on CLOSED by design.

The bolt handle &/or primary extraction TIMING has NOTHING to do with firing pin striker/cocking piece or trigger group mechanics.

Yes,the STRIKER to SEAR "HAND OFF" TIMING is easily remedied & is more voodoo for most, compared to handle timing.


Keep'em in the X ring,
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All bolt actions are, to a certain extent, cock on open and cock on close, by design. This includes Mausers, Springfields, Enfields, Winchesters, Howas, Rugers, etc. However, all of them also "hand off" the striker to the sear AFTER the extraction cam surface contacts the receiver. Second stage of the cocking operation occurs as the handle is turned down and the bolt is cammed forward.
I checked all of the 700's and 40x's in my shop (nine of them) along with a clone, and all but one accomplished the "hand-off as the handle was lowered; not as the bolt was pushed forward. The one which handed off as the bolt was pushed forward is a new, stainless action. Of the others, one doesn't really count because it has a home made bolt in it, the handle is integral, and I made it to maximise primary extraction. So I have one which hands off as the bolt is pushed forward and seven which hand off as the handle is turned down. One in which the sear picks up the striker before the extraction cam surface touches and seven which touch at the cam first. My question then becomes, which is as it should be? I should add that the single example also has very little primary extraction; this occurring only during the last five degrees of bolt rotation. It sure seems like this is related to the location and timing of the handle. It also seems like on this particular specimen, trigger function is somewhat affected since it has to be set up with considerably more sear engagement or the striker will follow down if the bolt is operated briskly. Is this just coincidental?
I have seen numerous Remingtons where the striker was altered to effect hand off as the handle was lowered rather than when the bolt was pushed forward but I always felt this was approaching the problem from the wrong direction.
Though I am, truly, an old dog, I am always eager to learn new tricks and look upon this as an opportunity to try and do so. GD

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Originally Posted by Dans40X


STRIKER TO SEAR HAND OFF can be re-worked to operate by means that you have been lucky to have not had an accidental discharge to date.
(stop practicing that maneuver before someone gets hurt/killed & wants to sue Remington for being stupid)
.


Not trying to argue but I’m a little confused by this part. What are you referring to?

- having a live round in the chamber with the firing pin lowered and then just raising the bolt handle up then back down to cock it ready to fire? If that’s the reason, it’s not something I do. I either have one in the chamber with safety on or nothing in the chamber. The only time I use the raise and lower to cock the firing pin is when testing or adjusting a trigger or if I’m dryfiring to get the feel of a trigger before I shoot a live round.

- or do you mean that my model 7’s ability to cock the trigger ready to fire, just by raising the bolt all the way up and back down again without having to pull the bolt any farther back than the extraction cam already moves it? Does this condition make it more likely to have an accidental discharge?
If thats the reason, that would also be confusing because every Remington 700 and 7 I’ve ever owned or handled has worked this way. Same goes for my other rifles which are tikkas, kimbers and savages.



When I noticed this 700sa action wouldn’t cock the firing pin by just cycling the bolt handle up and down, I suspected the trigger might not be adjusted properly. I backed out the 3 adjustment screws and adjusted all 3. I did the engagement first, then over travel, then started playing with trigger pull weights. I tried heavy trigger pull and it made no difference and I wound up setting it at 3lbs.

My question is, what is the fix for this issue if the trigger adjustment is not the problem? Or is it normal for some Remington’s to do this and others not? Thanks.

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mod7rem,
Your trigger adjusting routine is dangerous at best.
Cease & desist until you have a clue what you are doing.


greydog,
Once again-
Bolt handle TIMING has nothing associated w/ firing pin TIMING in a Remington.
Break out the precision instruments-
With bolt rotated out of battery - - firing pin is cocked.
COCK ON OPEN
Indicate protrusion from aft end of firing pin striker to firing pin shroud which Rem calls a PLUG.
Annotate that number to the nearest thousandth of an inch(.000")
With a clear chamber,tip rifle muzzle down & let bolt slide fwd.
Slightly PUSH fwd & rotate bolt into battery.
COCK ON CLOSE
Indicate protrusion from aft end of firing pin striker to firing pin shroud.
Annotate that number to the nearest thousandth of an inch.(.000")

STRIKER TO SEAR HAND OFF TIMING

Average dimensions that you will notice depending on vintage are
cocked= +.015"
battery= +.060"
fired= -.120"

Any Remington w/angled sear to striker engagement surfaces by design is unlike any military square cut sear/striker arrangement by design which allows lifting the bolt handle to re-cock the firing pin in a battlefield scenario/situation unlike a COCK on CLOSE design.(M98/M96/'03/'03A3-A4/P17/SMLE)


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You are missing the point entirely Dan. I know a portion of the cocking is done on bolt closure. This is the case on every bolt action of which I'm aware. The question I am asking, the question which, so far, you have declined to answer is this: Is it proper for the extraction cam to withdraw the bolt sufficiently to permit the sear to reset? Also, when the bolt is pushed forward, is it proper for the extraction camming surface to contact before the cocking piece contacts the sear? Alternatively, should the cocking piece contact the sear first? The Model 70 Winchester uses an angled sear surface and yet it is considered proper that the extraction cam contact first when the bolt is pushed forward. Canjar admonished gunsmiths to ensure this was the case when fitting his triggers to the Model 70. Otherwise, he said, trigger function would be compromised. He said the same thing about 700's. Apparently, he didn't know that what happened at the extraction cam had no effect on the trigger at all.
As I said, I am fully aware that a portion of the cocking sequence takes place on bolt closure. My contention is that, when things are as they should be, this portion of the operation takes place when the bolt is turned down; as is the case on a Mauser, Winchester, Springfield etc. I contend that this final cocking of the rifle should only take place when pushing the bolt forward in those designs which are designed to be cock on closing like Enfields, Lee Enfields, '91,'93,'96 mausers etc. If Remingtons are supposed to be a cock-on-closing action, I had better get to work and fix those that I have which are not. I can't grind the extraction cam back since that won't affect cocking anyway and I would hate to lose my primary extraction. Maybe I could recut the cocking cam so it would not cam the cocking piece back so far; more like the Enfield. Then I can have a real cock-on-closing Remington. I won't have to worry about the sear engagement being insufficient to handle the shock of the bolt being slammed home because that is, apparently, not a thing. GD

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greydog,
Are you capable of indicating or guessing to reply?
ALL of your Remington's are cock on close unless someone has reworked pieces/parts.
No,not all actions are cock on open & cock on close.

Your Winny 70 is a bad rework of M98/'03's w/ angled striker/sear configuration copying the military counterparts, so yes you are able to lift/rotate the bolt to re-cock the firing pin.. aka military action.

Canjar &/or Kenyon trigger groups, IMO aren't worth a $10 dollar bill....sloppy/non-repeatable w/ a shoe as wide as a loader bucket.


From the 1940's to the present, what has changed from the 722/721 to 1962's redesign to the 700?


When bolt/handle/striker/sear are properly TIMED your Rem will be COCK on OPEN.....ONLY & your elected trigger pull will be repeatable as an 2 stage trigger group.


Keep'em in the X ring,
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Finally, you managed to answer the question; almost. You seem to have admitted that it is proper for the Remington to be able to cock on open when everything is as it should be. It only took four pages of BS and you blowing smoke to accomplish this.
We now know (in reality, we have known from the outset) that a properly timed bolt will allow the 700 to cock on open. This could have been revealed as part of a civil discussion, early on, but your default response to everything is to ridicule and denigrate. Now that we have gotten past this personality flaw though, perhaps we can just provide information. You can start by telling me which bolt action is not cock on open and cock on close (Hint: Any action with even a short cocking cam is, to a certain extent, partially cock on open. Any action in which the bolt moves forward as the handle is turned down,after the sear has contacted the cocking piece is, to a certain extent, cock on closing. It's all just semantics. ). Using your own measuring technique, you will notice that Model 70's, Mausers, Sakos, Rugers, etc., all accomplish a significant potion of the cocking sequence as the handle is turned down. By the way, in your instructive calculations, you forgot to add in the amount the bolt sleeve unscrews as the bolt is closed. In the case of the 700, the sleeve has a 12 TPI thread which gives us .0833 per revolution. This means 1/4 turn yields roughly 21 thou. So, if the difference, relative to the rear of the bolt sleeve, is .061 (an arbitrary figure I pulled out of thin air) then the actual amount of cocking which has taken place is about .082" (once again, arbitrary figure. Chosen as an example only). Anyway, actions vary as to the amount of cocking which is done as the bolt is closed. On a Mauser 98, it's a lot, on a 700, it's much less. In those actions which are categorized as cock on closing, most of the cocking occurs as the bolt is pushed forward but a portion of the cocking sequence is on opening and a further portion is as the bolt is turned down.
The importance of having the extraction camming surface take up the shock of the bolt being slammed forward (as in a rapid-fire scenario; as might occur in the field) becomes greater with rifle using an over-riding sear trigger. This especially in those instances where sear engagement is minimal. A military, two-stage trigger, with it's generous sear engagement, can handle a pretty significant shock load. A trigger like the Remington, with a narrow, shallow, engagement area, not so much. This why it is so difficult to adjust a Remington to a light, safe pull if the bolt timing is wrong. The sear engagement has to be too great to withstand the shock and the spring has to be set too tight to stop the connector from bouncing away.
This will be my last post on this thread as I think this horse is beyond dead. I apologize to any members I may have offended. That includes you, Dan! GD

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greydog,
You can start by telling me which bolt action is not cock on open and cock on close.

To cover more options than you have handled or have experience with.
Barnard P series
Grunig & Elmiger
Borden to name a couple.

I'll tell you anything you want to know......BUT not all that I know!!

No offense taken & no apologies given or accepted.


Keep'em in the X ring,
Dan


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Uhh...take it to a "gunsmith" or contact Remington to get a return authorization...


Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.

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Originally Posted by SheriffJoe


Uhh...take it to a "gunsmith" or contact Remington to get a return authorization...

Since the trigger has been played with there would be charges to replace the trigger. And it will take a lot of time.


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Originally Posted by greydog
Finally, you managed to answer the question; almost. You seem to have admitted that it is proper for the Remington to be able to cock on open when everything is as it should be. It only took four pages of BS and you blowing smoke to accomplish this.
We now know (in reality, we have known from the outset) that a properly timed bolt will allow the 700 to cock on open. This could have been revealed as part of a civil discussion, early on, but your default response to everything is to ridicule and denigrate. Now that we have gotten past this personality flaw though, perhaps we can just provide information. You can start by telling me which bolt action is not cock on open and cock on close (Hint: Any action with even a short cocking cam is, to a certain extent, partially cock on open. Any action in which the bolt moves forward as the handle is turned down,after the sear has contacted the cocking piece is, to a certain extent, cock on closing. It's all just semantics. ). Using your own measuring technique, you will notice that Model 70's, Mausers, Sakos, Rugers, etc., all accomplish a significant potion of the cocking sequence as the handle is turned down. By the way, in your instructive calculations, you forgot to add in the amount the bolt sleeve unscrews as the bolt is closed. In the case of the 700, the sleeve has a 12 TPI thread which gives us .0833 per revolution. This means 1/4 turn yields roughly 21 thou. So, if the difference, relative to the rear of the bolt sleeve, is .061 (an arbitrary figure I pulled out of thin air) then the actual amount of cocking which has taken place is about .082" (once again, arbitrary figure. Chosen as an example only). Anyway, actions vary as to the amount of cocking which is done as the bolt is closed. On a Mauser 98, it's a lot, on a 700, it's much less. In those actions which are categorized as cock on closing, most of the cocking occurs as the bolt is pushed forward but a portion of the cocking sequence is on opening and a further portion is as the bolt is turned down.
The importance of having the extraction camming surface take up the shock of the bolt being slammed forward (as in a rapid-fire scenario; as might occur in the field) becomes greater with rifle using an over-riding sear trigger. This especially in those instances where sear engagement is minimal. A military, two-stage trigger, with it's generous sear engagement, can handle a pretty significant shock load. A trigger like the Remington, with a narrow, shallow, engagement area, not so much. This why it is so difficult to adjust a Remington to a light, safe pull if the bolt timing is wrong. The sear engagement has to be too great to withstand the shock and the spring has to be set too tight to stop the connector from bouncing away.
This will be my last post on this thread as I think this horse is beyond dead. I apologize to any members I may have offended. That includes you, Dan! GD

I concur with everything in your post grey dog
For some reason dan seems to enjoy being obtuse

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Please update what the cause and fix was. I’m having the same issue on a new rifle. Thanks

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