Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .416 Weatherby vs. .416 Rigby?!?

Please forgive the cross-post (I asked also under big-bores). However, it occurred to me that a writer may know the answer to this...

I have read that the .378 Weatherby, .460 weatherby, and .416 weatherby share the same case necked up/down as appropriate (both Lyman and Hornady manuals say so). FURTHER, I have read these cases are derived from the .416 Rigby + belt (Lyman). IF that is true, has Weatherby done anything more or special to allow the Rigby case to handle so much more pressure? Given that (I understand that its true that) the .416 Rigby is loaded to around 40,000 CUP, whereas a lot of modern rounds are loaded more like 55,000 CUP, is that really all Weatherby did? or is there more to it? The flip side is that the .416 Rem is essentially a .375 improved and necked out, much like the .458 Lott, giving Rigby performance from a much smaller case by simply operating at the higher pressure ranges.

Dan

Yes on all of your pressure conclusions. The problem for many of the higher pressure cartridges being the heat where such big shells are used. As I understand, the 416 Rem has since been dialed back from initial publicity specs.

What Weatherby did was beef up the web some, on the 416 Rigby case, put a belt on it and stuff it full of powder and poof you have the 378 460 and 416 Weatherbys. The price for all that goodness is very heavy recoil. You get near 416 Rigby performance out of th 416 Remington and when its all said and done its not a bad way to go. Any action that can handle a 375 H+H will handle the 416 Remington. I had a 416 Rigby for a while and then I had a 416 Remington for a longer while and I liked the Remington a lot. These days there is so little dangerous game that is being hunted, what what there is of it, a 375 H+H handles it well enough.

Along similar lines, the .458 win does do now what it had been promised to do, but had been unable to do given the bullets and powders around when it was introduced. Yet, it still suffers from the poor rep it acquired for caked powder squibs, and solids with jackets that were too thin. The story behind Lott's desire to build a reliable .458 is pretty well known by now -- yet those real motives included having a case that would operate at lower pressures while giving just that little more than the .458 win promised but didn't then deliver. Now, the .458 Lott is getting loaded modern hot, which some folks say misses 1/2 of the point. (It's amazing how much passion some people inject into this debate -- but then, when they have faced dangerous game, and want to KNOW they've done everything they can to avoid getting tossed on some dagga boy's horns, I suppose there's good enough reason.)

Yup -- the .416 rem had a rep, too, for sticking when hot (that is, the powders were/are sensitive to temperature enough so that a hot load got too hot if it was "warm" out). That sticking was enough to defeat the remington 700's extractor.

If Weatherby beefed up their web, does that imply that most manufacturers (particularly Norma) is constructing their casings to be consistent with the old 40,000 CUP standards?

Dan

I have had two 416 Rems and both would shoot fatory 400 grain SAF ammo at over 2500 fps. That is hot, especially for a non-temp sensitive powder. However, handloading them to 2350-2400 fps puts them in the same velcoity range as the original 416 Rigby load, and there doesn't seem to be much of an issue with the 416 Rem so loaded. Randy Brooks of Barnes Bullets told me he likes the 350 grain X bullet from a 416 Rem (probably the TXS nowadays) for everything including elephant, and IIRC, his load was in the 2550-2600 fps range which again is not a hot load.

The 416 Rigby can be loaded to 416 Wby levels, but from talking to guys who have used the Rigby loaded with 400 grainers to 2350-2400 fps, there really doesn't seem to be much killing power gained by shooting that bullt faster. Realize I am just repeating what I have heard. Jorge1 can give you some real life experience with the Rigby in Africa, as can many others here.

I have a #1 in .416 rem, as well as a m77 in the Rigby. I see no fleas on the rem cartridge... brass is available at a very reasonable price compared to .416 rigby. Further, the case is not so fat, so you should be able to fit 1 more in the mag compared to the rigby. Further, it gets the performance with about 20 grains less powder. My only partial complaint about the .416 rem is that Ruger has quit making rifles in .416 rem, Winchester has quit making bolt actions in which I could get a .416 rem. Remington offers one in their Mod 700 abg (custom shop). T/C's new .416 is a Rigby, not a .416 Rem... and it is single shot. To some extent, I suspect that the .416 rem has suffered from its early reputation of cartridge sticking, and that in a market that doesn't have high demand (hunting for animals that need these calibers tends to be expensive), plus they're pushing their ultra mag line... It is a shame how a number of good cartridges (.458 win, .416 rem, etc) have suffered perhaps unjustly given modern components.

I've noticed some variability in loads listed for the .416 rigby -- particularly between the lyman and hornady book. IF the widely touted tolerance to pressure variations in Africa-hot conditions in part provides for strengths up to weatherby loads, that's fine. Mostly, I was trying to bracket how/why there was so much variation in the listings. For example, IMR-4831 in the Hornady book only goes up to 91.2 gr, while the Lyman book lists it up to 98.5 gr. Going back to the Hornady book, the 98.5 gr load puts it in the low-end of the .416 Weatherby, with nearly 2500 fps. Lyman's listed muzzle velocity was rather lower for the same load (different barrels are different, and perhaps different cartridges, such as the 7mm rem mag, are more susceptible to individual variations than others).

Beyond this, I'm not really interested in pushing the .416 rigby up to Weatherby pressures (don't want to play games with the possible impacts on the stock, much less my shoulder). BUT, I was interested in how much tolerance I could expect given comparisons between loading manuals. Apart from that, there are the velocity ranges that the various soft-point projectiles are designed for. I see more listed for the "normal" ranges than the high-velocity ranges...

Dan

The Rigby case can indeed be loaded up to right around .416 Weatherby pressures and velocities, no problem, and in fact some manuals list those loads. I doubt there was any problem doing that even with older brass (and for many years the only brass readily available was Weatherby with the belt turned off) but today's fine brass from Norma and Federal is very stout.

I load my own CZ 550 in .416 Rigby to the old-time levels, however, for three reasons:

I use it mostly with the factory (fixed) express sights, and my handloads hut right where the sights aim.

It knocks the snot out of dangerous game, just as it did when introduced, with relatively modest recoil.

Brass lasts forever when loaded arouynd 40,000 psi.

But I also have a .416 Remington and a .458 Win. These work fine with modern powders at their original (or even slightly) higher velocities, except in the very hottest hunting conditions. Both are fine rounds, and most African PH's I know express little preference between them--except perhaps that .458 ammo is more widely available.

Have also fooled with the .458 Lott some. It is not nearly the fearsome beast some imagine when chambered in a suitably heavy rifle with a decent stock--and loaded to modern safe pressures. This means 2250 fps or maybe a little more with a 500-grain bullet, about 100 fps more than the .458 Win. Like many wildcats, the Lott's ballistics were reduced when it became a factory cartridge, because it was found that most popular "maximum" handloads were at 70,000 psi or more.

John Barsness

I have heard Rigby brass, loaded to the 40,000 CUP range, does indeed last forever! That (given the prices) is a huge blessing!!

I understood that Jack Lott had worked up his cartridge in part because of poor performance from a .458 win that gave him grief with a dagga boy. Seems two things were true about the .458: 1) the ball powders tended to cake given heat and time, which promoted squib loads; 2) the projectiles -- even solids -- were a little thin, yielding interesting performance issues. An article about solids vs monometal bullets does a great job -- including anecdotal info about the powder caking: http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/firearms/solids_monometals_01.htm . But given all of that, and that the .458 win doesn't suffer much from those problems these days, the biggest advantage of the Lott is that it has the space to load it to the originally advertised velocities of the .458 win at lower pressure, making it more tolerant of africa-heat. Yet, it tends to be loaded to the top and hot... Anyway, I've noticed lots of people get very passionate about their CRF DGR's with low pressure cartridges: they figure they want to take out as many risk factors as they can before facing dangerous game.

I told my wife I wanted to hunt buffalo. Since she is from Asia, she had in mind these tame placid animals you can put children on. I figured I would not disabuse her of that idea. Then we were watching TV, and there was this big black animal chasing a couple of lions around. She asked me what that big black animal was... I said, "That is a <cough>." She repeated her question. I said, "That is a buffa<cough>." At that point, the black animal hooked a lion and sent it flying with blood and guts leaking out. She said "What is that?" I said it was a buffalo. She said "You want to hunt *THAT*?? Are you CRAZY!?!??!" It seems animals that require these calibers also tend to be grumpy. Go figger. However, I had a chance to pick up a Ruger #1 in .458 win for under $500 a few years ago. As time went on, I have accumulated several more of that range of calibers in #1's and m77s. When my job sent me on a trip to RSA, I couldn't imagine going without hunting, but no cape buffalo were on the menu for that trip. Now I have all these rifles in search of a chance to use them... In the mean time, I'm getting a lesson on the weird vagaries of the various rifles and calibers, which projectiles will shoot to roughly the same POI for the same loads, etc.

Dan

I've never had the slightest trouble with the 416 Rem. Mag. when it's loaded properly, even in 100 + degree weather. Early batches of Remington 400 gr. factory ammo WERE loaded too hot, however, and that's a fact.

The 416 Rigby burns more powder in order to achieve the same velocity that the 416 Rem. Mag. does with the same bullets, so it kicks harder, and 416 Rigby rifles are also typically built bulkier and heavier, and don't have the same magazine capacity that a less bulky, lighter custom 416 Rem. Mag. can have. So on all counts, I favor the Rem. Mag. over the Rigby.

The 416 Weatherby kicks too hard to me to shoot well, especially with that crooked, misshapen Weatherby stock -- and with the factory muzzle break, it'll blow your ears loose at the same time, as well as the ears of everyone in your hunting party. It's not for me............plus, I don't think that the thin Weatherby Mark V magazine box is built ruggedly enough to handle full-house solid and soft-point loads on a regular basis, plus magazine-capacity is reduced.

AD

I think I have posted this before, but will again:

As recently as last year talked to some Tanzanian PH's who mentioned kicking the bolt handle open on .416 Remingtons with factory ammo, when hunting in very hot (100+) weather. Maybe they had older factory ammo....

As mentioned earlier, I have both a .416 Rigby and Remington. The Rigby with iron sights weighs exactly the same as the Remington with scope, 9-1/4 pounds. When loaded to the same muzzle velocity with 400-grain bullets, darned if I can tell the difference in recoil, despite the 25-grain difference in powder charge. But they have slightly different stock dimensions and thast may be the reason!

JB

I've been loading and hunting with the 416 Rigby for over ten years now. In fact, I have one of the first original RSMs that rolled off Ruger's assembly line. I bought it purely for "romantic" reasons but it works and works well on buffalo. I load mine to about 2400 fps with 400gr Swift Aframes and old style steel Hornady solids.

Having said that, the 416 Remington in my view is a more practical choice IF you intend to stay within original Rigby velocities and that's PLENTY. The Rigby demands a longer, heavier action and if one is going to go that route, might as well go for a 450 Dakota (my choice) Rigby or Lott.

I am also a firm believer that given a proper bullet, speed kills and from speaking with gents who "hot rod" the Big Bores, they definetly see buffalo react differenly when that 416 (or 450) smacks a buffalo at velocities exceeding 2500 fps.(OUCH). So if you want speed, go with the Rigby. Personally I'm very sorry I sold my Model 70 in 416 Remington. jorge

Don Heath wrote an article quite a while ago -- after 1991 -- bemoaning a lot of cartridges and rifles, the .416 rem in mod 700 among them. http://www.african-hunter.com/lessons_learned.htm

However, I have enjoyed my .375H&H in mod 700 classic, and have not noticed any problems with that along the lines Don Heath had described.

My take at this point is that a good chunk of the complaints Heath *may* have had something to do with poor maintenance.

Perceived recoil is very funny... A huge chunk of it has to do with how well I mounted the gun, and can even be affected by whether my clothes/jackets/coats are slippery. Biggest problem with the bench is that I really lack the freedom to get behind the gun and still have flexibility to absorb the shock. Getting the rifle up higher (raised tables so I'm not hunched over) helps a lot. After shooting these, my '06s feel like mouse guns. By grades, I'd put a .375H&H about with a .340 wby, then the .416 rigby, .416 rem, and .458 win loaded with 400gr bullets at around the same -- MAYBE I'd say the .416 rem has a little more jab than the .458 win with 400gr loads; the .458 with 500 gr loads is a little more push, but not awfully much more. The .458 lott is a bit more jab if you cannot get off the bench. Off the bench, not so bad. One thing I haven't understood is why I can get a bruise from my '06s when I can come away from my .416s or .458 win without a bruise?

One other downside: cleaning these things is a lot harder than smaller calibers.

Dan

Hi Jorge,

How do Swift A-frames hold up to velocity? Also, how do they compare to nosler partitions by your reckoning?

If I saw a mod 70 in .416 rem, I'll grab it! I don't see any complaint about the 416 rem -- it has a number of advantages over the rigby...

If I had any complaints about my rifles, it is that two of these big bores are Ruger #1s. They shoot well, and are inexpensive (the .458 win was <$500). BUT, animals that want those calibers tend to be grumpy, and while single-shots work OK, and I KNOW I can get 5-6 shots off in a minute, the chance of dropping cartridges, fumbling when in trouble -- if one gets into trouble -- looks like too much to put a PH through for the sake of the romance of a single-shot... not to mention my wife if I do buy it.

As for why I GOT the Rigby -- well, its a long story, that started when I helped a friend with a project, and he wanted to pay me back. He opened the conversation with the question of what was my dream gun. I said maybe a double, and mentioned Searcy's work... but my (perhaps naive) impression is that doubles are expensive to shoot, expensive to re-regulate if they need it, etc, though some are joyfully accurate. Next on the list was a Rigby -- partly because I like .416's, and I fear (maybe unjustly) that the Rigby is beating the .416 rem in availability - at least for the time being - and I am unsure of how long brass will be easy to find. I suppose I could try to blow out .375H&H brass by resizing, trimming, and fireforming, maybe easier from the 8mm rem, but THAT's harder to find than .416 rem. At the moment, .416 rem brass is easy and cheap to find... But when I began to try to FIND a mauser-style CRF bolt rifle in .416, I only found the .416 rigby.

Dan

DanEP & friends,

I got into the .416s in the 80s, figuring to hunt with one in Africa. I bought a Super Grade M70 .458 WM for a rebarrel project to .416 Taylor when I read an ad in Shotgun News for .416 Hoffman and .416 Remington brass. I immediately called the phone number, and that was how I met George Hoffman (RIP George!). As it turned out George was a bit premature as Big Green had not yet announced their .416. I put in an order with the Custom Shop anyway.

In due time my .416 Remington Magnum M700 arrived. It was a synthetic stocked rifle with a very fat, short 20" barrel. Even with that heavy barrel installed, it only weighed 7 pounds and change. I had also ordered 100 rounds of factory ammo, and they shipped a mix of 350 and 400 grain loads.

Off I went to the range, and fired three rounds. At the first shot, the barrel band departed the rifle. At the third shot the extractor failed. The barrel looked like a copper mine it fouled so badly.

Over the next few years I had Jim Brockman do the cinsiderable work necessary to make it a reliable shooter. I ended up selling the rifle though and going hunting with a pair of .375 H&H rifles.

I have shot the .416 Weatherby and the .416 Rigby in bolt guns too, and they all felt about the same. I think the Remington cartridge is a more practical choice, but the Rigby has it beat sideways for coolness.

jim

I wouldn't own a Remington rifle on a dare and the post above substantiates my reasoning. Dan the 400gr Swifts hold up perfectly. I shot my buffalo at about 80 yards and two of the three bullets went lean trhough leaving huge (at least 60 cal) holes. The one bullet I recovered went through the upper leg, the top of the heart and lodged on the other side. It weighed 397 grains. jorge

I have loaded and tested all of these with the exception of the LOTT which I call a "me too" cartridge as it offers nothing the others do in practical terms.

Regarding the original question, here is the text of an article I had published a few years back on the Big 3 Weatherby's.

AGW

THE BIG THREE


Any shooter who bench tests the biggest of the big, namely the .378, .416 and .460 Weatherby Magnums, will find that they practically stop the rifle range, as onlookers gather to view them in awe. This is because of the fact that even after all these years of availability, these performance based cartridges are still the most powerful factory built bolt action repeating rifles available over the counter.

In today�s modern era of new breeds in magnum cartridges, both long and short, the .460 Weatherby Magnum, now 45 years young, still holds the esteemed position of most powerful factory repeating rifle ever made.

Having played with all of these cartridges for some years, I thought it helpful to pass on some of my reloading information for prospective owners and hand-loaders who may be looking for short cuts on just how to achieve performance and the versatility that was always historically, understated.

My attempt here is to outline the under promoted fact, that these cartridges are both versatile and practical for the serious sportsman with capabilities far in excess of the usual African applications associated with their initial marketing on introduction to the masses. All hand-loading data is my own and worked up over many years with all charges hand weighed and all chronographed on my Oehler 35P using Federal 215 primers exclusively.

Let�s start off with a rundown on the rifles to separate them.

.378 Weatherby Magnum
The late Roy E. Weatherby once said that the folks at Southgate called this one the �Stallion�. It was obviously a name selected because of the substantial recoil this cartridge generates. The .378 uses powder charges in excess of 110 grains to propel .375 calibre bullets at velocities generally reserved for the .300 Magnums. It does kick hard, and it rears up at the muzzle. Most experienced riflemen quote its recoil as the heaviest perceived recoil in the Weatherby range of cartridges.

One of my friends has owned two .378s over the last few years and claims the .378 has a personality of its own. He calls it a vengeful cartridge that punishes its user as much as its target. It is with these two rifles I conducted most of my hand-loading information for.

During my tests, I felt that the rifle itself is perhaps not so well suited to the .378 cartridge, being both lightly profiled and "weighted" with a light for calibre barrel contour. This light front end �balance� dishes out an unnecessary amount of recoil and muzzle lift. The violence in the recoil of the .378 means that it is probably the most re-sold big Weatherby in the line.



According to Weatherby, the .378 sells well because it is the �magnum�s magnum�, the �hairiest-chested� long ranger on the market. I don�t believe many serious big game hunters would opt for this one. When you reach the .375 caliber loaded with 300gn bullets, and still feel under-gunned, then a significantly heavier bullet coupled with an increase in caliber is a better option rather than more velocity within the same calibre.

Where the .378 Weatherby would be ideal, is hunting large and potentially dangerous game like buffalo, lion, bear and moose in semi-open terrain with occasional patches of open country. How it would be made better is a matter of personal opinion, mine, you are about to learn.

After long discussions with .378 users I have come to the conclusion that the .378 Weatherby is an excellent cartridge that could be made better, if not entirely civilised, if chambered in a heavier profiled rifle. Some years ago, I nearly became a .378 owner because my local distributor told me he had a cancelled order for a .378 barrel, chambered in the No:4 profile. Weatherby barrel profiles are much heavier than the common factory barrel profiles and the Weatherby No: 4 is heavier than for example, a Shilen No: 5. It is also the same barrel profile used for the .460 chambering. In the short days I procrastinated, the barrel was sold.

I think the standard .378 Mark V is too lightly profiled, has too little weight and has a barrel too thin to aid in reducing muzzle lift. Further to this, the .378 Weatherby is the only magnum in the Weatherby line using in excess of 100 grains of powder which does not have a muzzle brake fitted as standard.

If you could purchase a .378 Weatherby in a rifle profiled more along the lines of the .460 Magnum then you would find the �stallion� tamed considerably.

One of the big advantages in support of the .378 is the standard .375 calibre bullets available to hand-loaders, which are relatively inexpensive and commonly available in a range of weights from 220grain through to 350grains.

Hornady produces a great many 220gn bullets in this calibre and if you look around to see how many .375 Winchester lever rifles are around, it becomes rather obvious that they are being digested by .375 H&H and .378 Weatherby users. If you like to use this bullet in the .378 then 114gr of IMR 4350 will propel them at 3380 fps. Energy is 5582 ft/lbs and quite meaningless with this bullet construction. The fact is, it is suitable for practice or big varmints and pest destruction only.







A more practical light bullet for game hunting is Speer�s 235gn. One of the better loads chronographed used 112gr IMR 4350 for a velocity of 3336 fps. Energy is 5809 ft/lb. This is a good load for feral game hunting and deer of any size, including elk.

The practical bullet for general use is Hornady�s 270gn Spire Point. During testing, factory loads using this bullet shot cloverleaf groups with such consistency that they were used as the standard to beat. If at any time while testing, a hand-loaded group went wild, then the factory loads were shot again to ascertain whether the cause was a bad load or an accuracy problem. Invariably the factory load would shoot back into its original �ragged hole� group.

My hand-loading never once equalled the factory loads for accuracy, with the best loads shooting 1.5 moa. Some of the better loads consisted of 117gr AR 2213 which is the same powder as H 4831 for 3178 fps and 108gr IMR 4350 which gave nice even readings of 3150 fps.

The 300gn Hornady Round Nose is probably the most respected and consistent performer in the .375 H&H Magnum and it is also an excellent choice in the .378 Weatherby Magnum. During tests it was loaded down slightly, to improve on H&H velocities. With a load of 102gr IMR 4831, a good velocity of 2650 fps would suffice for most big game hunting in thickly wooded areas without pushing the integrity of the bullet too much.

The premium load for the .378 Weatherby, the sort of load you would use for a lion or brown bear hunt, was made up using the 300gn Swift-A-Frame bullet. I found two good loads which suffice for any game under elephant in size. A load of 111grains using Reloder 22 pushed the A-Frame over the light screens at 2928 fps. Highest velocity came from 113gr of the same powder, which achieved 3006 fps. This latter load provides an energy of 6021 ft/lbs and is a maximum load which should be worked up to gradually from at least five grains below.

The .378 is a peak performance cartridge that really could do better with a barrel profile slightly heavier than "issue". I would also prefer a good muzzle break fitted and continue with another course of hand-loading and testing with the great range of Barnes "X" bullets now available from 210gn through to 300gn. If I had another one of these rifles to play with again, I would concentrate on the mid weight Barnes X bullets of 250 and 270 grains which would suffice for any game under any conditions.

In summary, I would say that the .378 Weatherby is not the most practical big Weatherby for the American hunter because of the aforementioned rifle profile and the under .40 calibre restrictions which exist in some African countries associated with hunting their largest game. It is however still a heavy hitter for those who demand power at longer ranges for general hunting needs on larger game through to the more dangerous species.



.416 Weatherby Magnum
This is one of my favourite Weatherby cartridges. It must be because I have owned three rifles so chambered. �Thumper�, my original black Fibermark-stocked .416, is softly spoken for a cartridge that consumes 120gr of powder per shot because it was made for me with a 25 inch No: 5 (Shilen profile), matt blued barrel without muzzle brake.

�Brownie�, the newer KDF McMillan Fibergrain-stocked factory rifle, is a dreadfully loud rifle and it is necessary to use ear protection at all times, whether on the range or in the field.

My latest .416 Weatherby is another Mark V rifle I have had for over 20 years and has gone through three barrels already, before being re-barrelled to .416 Weatherby Magnum. With this third rifle I requested a 26 inch tube profiled No: 5 and had it triple �Magna-ported�. This is not a standard option so don�t expect you local �Magnaport� sales rep to know what you are talking about.

Because of the extensive testing I perform on the range, I wear both ear plugs as well as ear muffs. In the field either will suffice in taking the edge off the muzzle blast, though plugs are probably more practical. The factory rifle, �Brownie� has a 24.5� barrel fitted with a �KDF� style muzzle brake which Weatherby calls an "Accubrake" as standard, whilst the custom version, �Thumper� sports a 25� number 4 profiled barrel without any muzzle brake. In the field and on the range the rifle with muzzle brake is the more comfortable to use provided, ear protection is used.

I have had myself videotaped whilst participating in goats culls with the factory Accubrake version and on tape the recoil looks like about the .30/06 in terms of muzzle lift and shoulder push. In reality, if feels more like a heavy .338 Magnum load.


The .416 Weatherby magnum is one of only 2 Weatherby cartridges that does not have a freebore or long throat, the other being the .240 Weatherby magnum. Freebore has two main handicaps. Firstly it contributes to the blast that makes the big Weatherbys sound ferocious, and secondly, rifles with free bore don�t tend to shoot boat-tail bullets very well. I�ve given up trying to get boat-tails to shoot in Weatherbys and now only consider flat based bullets for my hand-loads.

The thing that first made the .416 calibre appeal to me has only strengthened my opinion about and affection for this cartridge, and that is the fact that it provides a combination of being over .40 calibre and using pointed bullets.






When the .378 Weatherby is running very high pressure to push 300gn bullets at factory specs of 2925 fps, the .416 is approaching this velocity with 350gn pointed bullets. According to the Barnes catalogue, 350gn Barnes �X� bullets have a ballistic coefficient of .521 and a sectional density of .289. This bullet will take any game on the planet.

My best load uses 119gr of IMR 4831, which shoots 1.2 moa groups and has a muzzle energy of over 6650 ft/lb. Its performance in the field is awesome. Penetration is the best obtainable from a non-solid bullet.

If velocity turns you on, my fastest load consists of 121gr IMR 4350 behind the 300gn Barnes soft point bullet for a velocity of 3080 fps. Before I go on, all Barnes soft point bullets are now discontinued, except the heaviest in the given calibre. �X� bullets have not only proven themselves worldwide, but they have been accepted and endorsed by the professionals in Africa. The lightweight soft nose versions are now essentially �obsolete� technology.

With over a decade of working with this cartridge in a range of rifles, I have accumulated extensive reloading data covering all bullet weights and most powders. I have shot game out on the open plains at over 300 yards, and as close as a few yards in heavy timber. It is one of the most spectacular rifles I have ever seen used in the field.

Heavy bullet users have several to choose from. Barnes makes a 400gn �X� bullet which is ballistically the best 400gn available. Hornady makes a round nose bullet and corresponding solid with tapered ogive. This bullet seems to shoot acceptably at around Rigby velocities of 2400 fps but isn�t effective at the 2750 fps the Weatherby is capable of. According to Hornady, this bullet is made for the Remington version only. Weatherby factory ammo is loaded with a Hornady bullet which is profiled similar to the 300gn .375 and 500gn .458 round nose bullets. This bullet is not available to hand-loaders.

The best round nose bullet I have tried, is the 410 grain Woodleigh Weldcore. These bonded core bullets when loaded up to full power, achieve maximum power in the .416 calibre. Woodleigh have recently released a new bullet in .416 caliber which is heavier again in the jacket construction and weighs in at 450 grains and should be a very decent payload for heavy game.

My best load in the 400gn weight range uses 111gr AR 2209 which is the same powder as H-4350. Velocities are around 2700 fps plus, with energies well over 6500 ft/lbs. Ample for anything, full stop. Recoil perception as far as I can tell, is less than that of the .378.






A fast and efficient load I used was 117gr of AR 2209 (H-4350) behind the 335gn Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet. Velocities ran 2965 fps average for three groups. In the field they were predictably efficient. Recoil was the heaviest I have felt in this chambering on the bench but quite satisfactory and tolerable in the field.

For potential .416 owners I would recommend three loads to try. Firstly, a Barnes �X� load for general use. There are 300gn, 325gn and 350gn, and it would pay to try all three to see which your rifle prefers. The best powder for the 300 grain weight is AR 2209 (H-4350) or IMR 4350. IMR 4831 is excellent and my favorite with the 350 grainers. When selecting the 400 grain bullets, I found Reloder 19 to produce some very high velocities, many above factory specifications.

With the 410gn Woodleighs, my advice is to try for two loads. A heavy load is a must so as not to insult the ballistic potential of the .416�s caliber. 111gr AR 2209 (H-4350), 114gr AR 2213 (H-4831) or 112gr IMR 4350 will get 2700 fps or more and still shoot flat to 250 yards.

A mild load to equate to the lesser .416 cartridges by producing velocities around 2400 feet per second is a must to introduce you to your rifle and let you know that shooting your big bore rifle can still be fun. Such a load is much easier on the ears and shoulder and still ample for general use. Fact is, it�s too good for big game only, and can be used on just about any hunt. The bullets will still perform on deer sized game and familiarize you with your big game rifle.

Some good loads to try are 95gr IMR 4320, 90gr IMR 4064, 90gr AR 2208, 100gr AR 2209 (H-4350) or 110gr H-4831. All will achieve velocities of 2400-2500 fps and felt recoil, which is very mild, considering the power. You will enjoy using these loads.

You can already tell from my writing that I like this magnum. It is versatile and can be used sensibly on all manner of game from deer on up to anything your check book can provide in opportunity. The rifle in recoil is controllable and the blast is there but not objectionable. Because the barrel is beefed up to what Weatherby calls a No:4 contour, the weight of the rifle in conjunction with the overall balance is very well balanced to the cartridge. If you are an experienced rifleman or someone who is prepared to hand-load to suit your own recoil tolerance, you will enjoy this .416 caliber magnum and not suffer restriction in any African hunting that is available.









.460 Weatherby Magnum
This is it folks, the most powerful factory bolt action repeating rifle the world has ever known. Since its introduction in 1958, this 45 year old gentleman of the ballistic world is truly worthy of legendary status. Because of the limited size of the common factory produced bolt actions and the head start the biggest Weatherby has, it is unlikely that the .460 will ever lose its crown. The "blue-sky" marketing of past generations is no longer effective with our modern generation which is used to detailed facts and chronographed supporting evidence in any modern assessment.

According to Weatherby it is still the largest seller in big bores simply because it is the end of the line, the biggest there is. Just like a big V8 car, the power is there if you need it and the pleasure can come merely from ownership than from absolute necessity.

My own .460 Magnum was hand picked from the Southgate store by Mr Roy Weatherby Snr over twenty five years ago. In those days of the early 1970�s, the .460 was still a very �known� cartridge though not commonly available in the gun stores. A friend of mine telephoned Roy Weatherby and after a conversation that lasted 2 � hours, Mr Weatherby kindly offered to personally select and send 2 Mark V rifles chambered in .460 magnum to our local dealer for our collection.

True to his impeccable word, the rifles arrived and turned out to be the prettiest .460�s you will ever see. The highly figured French walnut stock is rock hard and is used on all .460 rifles, being harder than most other walnuts.

Since then, my rifle has had over 2,000 rounds put through it, both in the field and on the bench to determine its full ballistic potential. For a light load, 300gn Hornadys were loaded with 100gr of IMR 3031 for 2778 fps. Accuracy was acceptable at 1.5 MOA though nothing startling. It was however, devastating on lightly built game and I culled many feral goats out to 300 yards or so with straight on holds, resulting in extensive internal damage and many split skins resulting from the imparting of kinetic energy on the lightly framed animals.

A good accurate light load I used over a period of years consisted of the Speer 400gn flat point and 100grains IMR 4064. Fifteen rounds shot in three groups of five measured a scant 1.2 moa. When sighted 2.5� high at 100 yards it shot 2.5� low at the 200 yard targets.

The highest velocity load tried using the 500gn Hornady was 122gr IMR 4350. This load chronographed at 2642 fps for 7752 ft/lb. Recoil is very heavy even with the Pendleton De-kicker muzzle brake as factory fitted and a standard accessory back in the early 1970's.




When talking sheer power and practical performance, one of the most powerful loads you can try has come from using the Swift-A-Frame bullet. A load of 123gr IMR 4350 sent this wonderfully accurate projectile over the Oehler at 2678 fps. This load was chronographed at 15 feet from the muzzle meaning that the magical 8000 ft/lb of muzzle energy the .460 is rated at was exceeded.

After using the rifle for so long now, my preferred load for all round use utilizes the 400gn Barnes �X� bullet. 116 grains of IMR 4064 produces 2900 fps it makes the .460 a more versatile rifle for African plains game and a simply awesome rifle for the world�s dangerous medium game such as lion and bear. For an accuracy load with this bullet, 110 grains of the same powder chronographs just on 2750 fps and shoots under .7 MOA with the best shooting. I have used this bullet on a variety of game including wild scrub bulls with emphatic results.

For heavy loads on large and potentially dangerous game, I have settled on the 550 grain Woodleigh Weldcore bullet and 120 grains of Winchester 760 which chronographs at 2525 fps. I used this load to decisively flatten a huge buffalo in South Dakota a few years back. Even with the 7,800 FPE this bullet was subjected to, the Woodleigh held together and expanded with the core remaining adhered to the jacket material and weighing 458 grains.

If you are interested in sheer performance, I also tried the 600 grain Barnes Original. I know most of you have read articles that attempt to compare some other cartridge to the .460 in trying to discredit or dethrone its majesty, but the true king of horsepower will chronograph the 600 grain pill at 2460 fps using a charge of 116 grains of IMR 4350. This load yields 8064 foot pounds of energy.
Simply Awesome.

The .460 Weatherby Magnum is a fine rifle for big game in timber and is extremely versatile in that it can be loaded to equal the velocities of any .45 calibre cartridge down to the .45-70 in performance. In attempting to find a load to play with that is light to use and suitable for use in feral game culls, I found a pussycat of a load in 57 grains of 2400 with Federal 215 primers. I did try standard large rifle primers but experienced too many hang-fires so reverted back to the ever reliable �215�. Velocity reached 2085 fps with another grain reaching 2120 fps and shooting into .5 MOA which is excellent.

The other notable thing about this load was that in bench shooting the .460, the recoil was so mild that the rifle didn�t even lift off the sand bags and remained level during chronographing. I tried this load during some culls I participated in and it hits like a very hard .45/70 loading which is great and quite useable for some types of hunting.

Woodleigh also makes a 400 grain spire point bullet in .458 caliber and these bullets shot around .5 MOA in my rifle using 110 grains of IMR 4064.



When the .460 is loaded down to equal the velocities of the .458 Winchester Magnum, the recoil is quite mild and is surprisingly easy to shoot. This is made possible because of the proper stock profiling and 11 lb weight of the Mark V rifle. Loads propelling the 500 grain Hornady at around 2100 �2200 fps were so mild in the heavy rifle that it was hard to accept the power being realized. The best loads here used 87 grains of IMR 4064 which gave very good accuracy and recoil that was almost a pleasure.

Which of the �Big Three� is better, is decided by two things. If you are �well heeled� you�ll probably own all three and have to justify nothing. For the rest of us, most .460s are sold to people who just want to own the most powerful rifle in the world. The .416 is one of the trendier calibres in the world today and is reported to be outselling the .375 calibre in some areas. The .378 is a hybrid of long ranging super performance and stopping power.

My advice on choice would be centred more around the medium bore existing in your rifle rack. If you own a .338 of some kind, I�d opt for the .416 as it is more like a big brother to the .338�s and similar in trajectory performance in the field.

If you own a .375 H&H, I would be inclined to have a .460 as backup. The .378, I feel is better suited to the shooter who doesn�t have a rifle over .30 caliber. It is hard to offer any real logic for the choices but then, that�s part of the fun, of it?


AGW

Forgot to mention that I also owned the .416 Remington which was made up on a .458 Supergrade Model 70, with Remington Factory barrel rethreaded to the action. The action was milled out to accomodate a 95mm (Sorry, don't know the inches)internal magazine box and the feed ramp polished and shaped to feed slick.

Sold it. Yeah I know!

Also had several .458's plus test rifles, the 3 .416 Wby's mentioned above and a test .416 Rigby in the CZ 550.

I kept my choices which was the .458 and the .460.

The .416'6 were a lot of fun and very accurate cartridges to work with, but they do not have the thump of the 45's. This is borne out if you like paper ballistics and theory, using the TKO comparisons which rate the .458 higher than any of the .416's.


The defence rests.

AGW

Jorge, friends,

Given the debates over virtues and vices, I have to say that I had decided to sell all my m700 '06's. That was a part of the turnover I did in tuning my accumulation of rifles. Yet, I have been reluctant to trade my m700 classic in .375H&H, nor do I feel that my .22-250 will suffer from the recoil -- The .375 shoots so well, and has yet to make me sad. Yet, I felt strongly enough about it that I was content to roll over the others, and am happier for it.

Having said that, I offer the following as a question: given the effect of the .416 rem, and given the new introduction of all their UltiMags -- I suspect that they have put some serious effort into fixing their problems. In any case, its been long enough that we should have heard by now if folks have had problems with their .338 RUM, or the .375 RUM... anybody hear anything?

Jim, sounds like you've ended up enjoying your adventures with the .416 Rem -- even if it did give you some headaches. Least of it, you had a chance to meet some good folks -- the best part of such journeys!

AGW -- just saw your posts! In a way, it is a significant tribute to the .416 Rigby case. Tastes are funny -- its odd to like the power of big bores, but not to be too interested in some of the current top ones: 700 NE, etc. Yet, the .416 Rigby has panach.. The .416 Rem (Ruger #1) I picked up because a friend was selling his, and I couldn't resist.

Having said that, I remember the 1st .460 Wby I ever saw. It was a peculiar gun for its breed, some form of commemorative. It was engraved, and it had an octogonal (half-octogonal? I do remember the flat faces quite distinctly) -- with the huge case that it fed -- a .458 bullet with a bottleneck. Golly!

Dan

I'd be inclined to keep the 700s in 30-06 and sell the 375 H&H. Having said that, the 416 Rem I had built on a 700 was exceedingly reliable in every category. I sold it to fund the CZ 550 I had rebarreled in 416 Rem but that was probably a mistake. My CZ is just now starting to show the reliability of my 700.

If I were going to build what I consider to be a super reliable 700, I'd go with a Sako extractor and a Jewell, Jard, or Timney trigger. That will resolve most of the mechanical issues with the rifle.

I personally have a lot of confidence in a Sako/Timey equipped 700, and without a doubt my most reliable rifle is a 700 so built in 338 Win mag. I have really out this rifle throug it's paces. I have beat the snot out of it elk hunting (I'm clumsy) and have 600ish rounds through it. It has never missed a lick. I was going to sell this rifle after I bought my M-70 Classic in 375 H&H, but I then remembered my 700 in 416 and realized what a dumb idea it is to get rid of a rifle that works well.

The 700's were either mediocre shooters on all ammo, or were very, very picky (shot remington factory stuff great, shot everything else very poorly). I replaced them with another crf .30-06 (shoots all ammo better), a 7mm rem mag (now have two rifles in that caliber -- something I wanted), which also shoots ammo well. I still trust the .375. I have 300 rounds through it, which has punched lots of paper, taken one hare, and one gemsbuck. If I have reason to come to mistrust it, I will go to one of the .416's. I have learned a while ago not to give up good shooters.

Dan