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#13432793 01/08/19
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CGPAUL Offline OP
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Shot HP for years...ben out of it now for years, but getting the bug to shoot again, thought I might try this. Some matches scheduled this summer in Wi. not to far from me.
Anyone done this type of match? Seems it could be fun. Whatcha shooting, and what are your thoughts? I got a RR AR gathering dust...would it work? Looks like most guys are shooting bolt guns.
Thanks

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I too would be interested.

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Not much,zero, in the way of replys...maybe an exclusive club?
PRM...just in Va visiting by Norfolk....you got any chucks where you live?

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I much prefer HP to any bipod shooting.
That & PRS sounds very expensive.
$0.02 and no more! smile


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I shot my first match last year. I plan to do 3 or 4 this year, just for fun.

I ran a Criterion LV contour 700 chambered in 6.5 creed. 24" barrel. No can or brake. I threw it in a Grayboe Terrain stock with DBM. Glass was a 10x swfa. This was basically a chunky hunting rifle and not ideal for the PRS game in terms of weight & recoil. I suppose it weighed 6-8 lbs less than most rigs I shot against(majority bolt guns). It also cost about $5,000 less.

After the second stage I was wondering WTF I got myself into. I was a little nerved up after the barricade kicked my ass but started to settle down and have fun after that. I shoot a lot but the challenges I encountered at this match definitely put me out of my comfort zone. I ended up in 28th place out of 42 shooters. I guess that's probably where I deserved to be. This was an "Open" class match so the majority of the shooters had significantly more match experience than I.

I processed the experience for a couple weeks and decided that I would go back for more. I'd say keep it simple and avoid buying every gadget out there. IMO you'll want a low recoiling rifle(1/2 moa capable) that accepts 10 rd mags, a small rear bag, a game changer bag, a bipod, and a scope that tracks reliably. The 10x SWFA did not handicap me and we shot out to 1200 yards. Most of the match was between 400 & 850 yards. Learn your dope, practice on a barricade, do lots of dry firing and I'm sure you'll do well and have fun. I had my dope figured out but had done nothing in preparation beyond that.

Good luck!


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Thanks for the input...I don`t have a bolt gun with that mag. capacity, but do have an AR. Thought I might use that with 69 or 77 grners. I understand the shooting is more like what you could expect in the hunting field..think the practice would be good.
I`m 76, so just finishing would be a win.
Thanks...BTB where are you shooting the matches?

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I think there were a couple guys shooting AR 223's at the match I attended. Shoot what you've got. I'd gun a 69 tmk, 70 rdf, or 75 Hornady bthp in an AR platform. You'll definitely be down on horsepower at "long" range, but that shouldn't stop you from giving it a go.

I live in the upper Midwest and the matches I plan on attending are part of the Border War Rifle Series.

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An AR is going to be a pretty big handicap in a lot of ways. Wind, of course, is an issue, but a larger concern is that small, slow bullet makes spotting hits a lot harder on steel. The steel is usually so shot up that the only way the RO can call hits is sound, and if the plate move. Many times, a .223 just wont swing the plate. Not saying it can't be done, and definitely cant say it won't be fun....but it will be tough.

Do some poking around your area, chances are there is a state or regional lever club that shoots "PRS-Style" club matches that will be a lot less formal, and a good way to wet your feet and see if its something you like. If it is....you will be getting a bolt gun pretty soon.

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Originally Posted by dakotagun
It also cost about $5,000 less.

LOL! Yeah, that's a barrier to entry.


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Originally Posted by liliysdad
An AR is going to be a pretty big handicap in a lot of ways. Wind, of course, is an issue, but a larger concern is that small, slow bullet makes spotting hits a lot harder on steel. The steel is usually so shot up that the only way the RO can call hits is sound, and if the plate move. Many times, a .223 just wont swing the plate. Not saying it can't be done, and definitely cant say it won't be fun....but it will be tough.



This may or may not be an issue. Top competitors are migrating toward 6mm from 6.5 to help reduce recoil since a lot of matches have sensors to detect hits. You don't necessarily have to "spot" them anymore.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by dakotagun
It also cost about $5,000 less.

LOL! Yeah, that's a barrier to entry.


A few guys were chuckling at me when got to some of the last stages. All in good fun of course. There was no "free recoiling" my setup, that is for sure!

I can honestly say that the other shooters were helpful and genuinely nice folks.

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Originally Posted by tarheelpwr
Originally Posted by liliysdad
An AR is going to be a pretty big handicap in a lot of ways. Wind, of course, is an issue, but a larger concern is that small, slow bullet makes spotting hits a lot harder on steel. The steel is usually so shot up that the only way the RO can call hits is sound, and if the plate move. Many times, a .223 just wont swing the plate. Not saying it can't be done, and definitely cant say it won't be fun....but it will be tough.



This may or may not be an issue. Top competitors are migrating toward 6mm from 6.5 to help reduce recoil since a lot of matches have sensors to detect hits. You don't necessarily have to "spot" them anymore.



Very few of the club level matches have target sensor setups, at least around here. 6mm has been a thing for a while, and a 105 or 115 at 3000fps will swing a plate a whole, whole bunch more than a 70gr .224. there are several guys playing with the 22x47 and 22 Creedmoor shooting 90+ bullets at 3000ish, and even they are having some issue with spotting shots.


But yes..if that's all you've got, I'd give it a shot. Its gonna be brutal just because it's not the tool for the job. It will, at least, be a learning experience.

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Yea, there are some matches in Cascade, Wi. this summer. Wouldn`t be too bad a drive..quess they can shoot to 1k, a push for the .223. I was thinking maybe a conversion to the Velkrye would work. New upper and BCG, and I think mags. Quess I could always try a match before spending some bucks.

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I think you'd have a lot of fun with nothing more than a Ruger Predator in 6 or 6.5 and an SWFA 10x.....

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I got the SWFA..just need the rifle! Will look into it.

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I am not at all saying that the Ruger will be truly competitive as it is....but it would sure be fun on a shoestring budget.

AICS pattern mags, smooth action, etc....

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Did some looking last nite..how about a Grendel? Could get an upper for modest cost, and some mags. Would it do 1k tho? Any experience?

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It would be better, for sure, than a .223...but its till pretty pokey. The AR platform is so limiting....but yeah, it would be an improvement.

You can pick up a Ruger Predator in 6mm Creedmoor for $425. I dont think you can get into a Grendel barrel, bolt, magazines, and match grade ammo for that.

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I agree. I'd run a Ruger American 6mm creedmoor before an AR platform.

I'd rather spin a Criterion barrel on a 700 action than doing either.

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Originally Posted by dakotagun
I agree. I'd run a Ruger American 6mm creedmoor before an AR platform.

I'd rather spin a Criterion barrel on a 700 action than doing either.




All day, every day....but I was trying to be as cheap as possible.

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You guys got me thinking....yesterday I took my MK 10 308 out to the farm...can shoot to 6, but shot at 450 and 5. Wtih handloads of 168 hornady match bullets, no problems hiting my 10x10 steel target, shooting prone/bipod out the back of my wood trailer...this load shots a bit under 1 inch at 100. I also have my 7x57 on a 98. Got some 162 ELD-M`s loaded. Gonna shoot for accuracy and over the chrony. If I can get 2750 out of them, and accurcy, the load stays SS to over 1200 yrds.
I know I`ve got limited mag capacity with both, and more recoil, but would either be worth trying?
Again, would like to try these matches...don`t expect to be National Champ by August..

Thanks for all the input.

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You can shoot a PRS style match with just about anything, but the way they are set up, without a certain amount of tailoring, its going to be frustrating.

308 is gonna be tough due to recoil, but definitely doable. The real killer is going to be mag capacity. Most are set up as as 10rd timed stage, and reloading or single loading will be a huge source of frustration.

With that said, give it a shot...when you are done, you will walk away with a plan for next time.

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Thanks...BTB, the 7x57 gave me 3, 3 shot 3/4 inch groups this morning. To cold to fool with the chrony..maybe tomorrow.

Thanks again.

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I've been shooting PRS and NRL matches for 10 years now. Even won the state championship in 2011. 6.5x47 has been my caliber of choice during that entire time though I have a switch barrel in 223 AI which gets occasional use. Getting ready to mix it up with a switch barrel 6.5 Super LR. Used to run an AI chassis and 5.5-20 NF NXS; SFP. Now, a 6-24 IOR, FFP. FFP's can really save the day with a COF has multiple targets at multiple ranges with multiple positions; saves time NOT having to dial when time if critical.

Their is a reason you don't see AR's in the hands of experienced/nationally ranked shooters....They are hard to consistently shoot well from varying positions.

MIL or MOA. Probably depends if you can easily think in 10ths or quarters/1/4's. I'm retired Army and now the MIL system but i'm also old enough to feel more comfortable with MOA/inches. I also like the fact a 1/4 click is more precise measurement than a 1/3rd click for MIL when setting my zero.

YMMV.

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Also,

Don't worry about the most high tech, highest velocity, highest BC bullet/caliber out there. If you're shooting for fun, camaraderie and to better yourself, stick with something easy to load and doesn't need the stay 1/4 moa accurate or chasing the lands. The high speed/BC 22's and 6mm are flat, light recoiling but also have a shorter barrel life. The 308 works well but needs heavier bullets to have a decent BC but also provides more recoil. The 6.5's are a happy medium; 6.5x47, 6.5 Creemoor and 260 Rem. Cans are nice and hearing safe but don't provide as much recoil taming as a good brake. You might notice I mention recoil several times. We competitors are not worried about our shoulders but rather, the ability to watch for your impacts; hit or miss, so we can adjust our POA for the next 9 follow-up shots. You NEED to see that first impact so you can adjust fire. Otherwise you might just be throwing more shots out to miss after your first miss.

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Heavier recoil is going to aggravate POI changes from position to position more than a light recoiling round too.

What do you PRS shooters think about larger bullets as far as being easier to spot impacts?


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Interesting stuff. Thanks. I`m comfortable with either mils or moa....but have built my own drop charts to attach to my scopes dials. Seems to work. I have also used the riticule for hold over/under yardages...tho I`m far from expert. Looking forward to addending a match.

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BTB...how/what do you guys practice? Used to shoot about 150 rnds per week with HP practice.
Wouldn`t care to do that much now.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Heavier recoil is going to aggravate POI changes from position to position more than a light recoiling round too.

What do you PRS shooters think about larger bullets as far as being easier to spot impacts?


Some still feel impacts are move visual with heavier bullets. Some feel they are sufficient with lighter ones. I heard recently that in some national level matches they are installing electric target hit indicators on targets waaaay out there. Can't remember what that distance is; maybe 900+.

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Most matches will have hit indicators on target pass 700 yards.
I shoot PRS matches all the time. Just take what you got and go have fun. Don't over think it.

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If you’re looking to invest a little money, but not much, I would look at the Ruger American Predator in 6 Creedmoor, put it in an MDT ESS chassis, and run your SWFA 10x. Weight and adjustability are your friends in a PRS rifle.

Last year I left my DMRII at home and shot a SWFA 10x, just to show guys new to the sport that you don’t need a $10k rig to compete and have fun. I placed 2nd at a one-day match that drew 55 competitors from across Canada. I had the cheapest scope of the bunch, by far. The lack of Christmas tree reticle was not ideal and cost me a few points on a stage like Alan described, but otherwise it was not a hindrance. You can be reasonably competitive without spending thousands on a scope.

IME, .224” bullets launched from an AR just don’t move the plates enough to let the spotters reliably call hits. You may give up a few points because you made the hit but the spotters couldn’t discern it. I find that 6mm bullets are the threshold for reliably seeing impacts. Because they also offer less recoil than larger calibers, those 6mm chamberings are about ideal, and are dominantly popular. Yes, barrel life is shorter than with a 6.5 or 7mm, but barrels, like powder and bullets, are consumables. It’s the cost of doing business in this game.

I can’t emphasize enough the importance of what Alan mentioned regarding recoil. You have to spot your own misses and hits, and call your own corrections, so you NEED to be able to control recoil and spot the shot. A good brake is extremely helpful here. The Badger FTE is very effective, although very loud and concussive. The PVA Mad Scientist is effective at reducing recoil and not nearly as concussive. The Insite Arms Heathen is similar.

I agree with dakotagun on the 10-round mags, rear bag, Gamechanger, bipod, etc. But for your first match, don’t worry about all the bags, guys are usually very generous with new shooters and will likely let you borrow a bag or two for stages where they’re an asset.

Practice shooting off of various barricades, and natural but uncomfortable supports, as much as possible. Learning to shoot accurately from awkward positions is the name of the game here. Dry fire helps a lot. Google IOTA and you can practice in your basement with a printout of a field of targets, scaled appropriately, available online if you look around.

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
If you’re looking to invest a little money, but not much, I would look at the Ruger American Predator in 6 Creedmoor, put it in an MDT ESS chassis, and run your SWFA 10x. Weight and adjustability are your friends in a PRS rifle.

Hey Jordan,
Why not a Ruger PR? I've seen those for <$1,000.


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Those work, too, I just prefer the ESS. But I have a friend who grabbed a used RPR with Criterion 6XC barrel for $1200 (a steal of a deal, here in Canada), and it’s been great for him. He’s a new PRS shooter, and the rifle certainly is not what’s holding him back.

Ideally, a great budget gun would be a Rem 700 with Criterion prefit in a MDT ACC with TT Special trigger, but the RAR-P/ESS or RPR is a cheaper way to get into the game.

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Anybody shooting any tube guns? Like MAK or Eliseo?


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I never see any tube guns.
I just finished shooting the NRL’s Brawl here in South Texas. I’ve been shooting these types of matches at places like Rifles Only long before the birth of the PRS. I think these types of matches really help your marksmanship abilities especially when hunting. When your in the field Hunting other than in a blind, when have you ever had a perfect shooting position to shoot from. I’d say probably never, you make the best with what you have. This type of shooting translates directly with hunting.
All shooting hobbies cost money. FYI: the trend to shoot calibers other than the .308 is a old one and pre dates the PRS and invention of the creedmoor. We’ve been looking at a way to cheat the wind for a long time and have used calibers such as the .260, ..260 AI, 6.5x47, 243, .243AI, 7 WSM, etc....I would stay away from any of the semi-autos to start. I don’t own one but I think the Ruger rpm is a pretty good way to start and could easily be upgraded. I’d also find a used Bushnell Elite Tactical scope and a case of bullets.

I can’t emphasize this enough, find a good reputable trainer and get some training. Rifles Only, Frank Gali, Gunworks, Etc....Good luck, I hope you get started.

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That's very interesting Chance. I come from 3-P and in my view from the outside looking in, it seems like the two would have a lot of needs in common, especially the need for equipment adjustability. In my ignorance it seems like there should be a lot in common, rifle-wise anyway. (Except I see more of a trend understandably towards higher capacity cases in PRS.)


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I competed at a small local PRS shoot for a few years. At least it USED to be small. It was always 8-12 guys, done by noon, we all had a great time. And then it got popular. Now there's 50 guys and it takes all day. I'd rather drive up in the mtns and shoot with a buddy or two than sit on my ass for 10 hours for 10 minutes of shooting.

My setup was a DPMS LR260 with a NF 5.5-22x50. But there were guys with the whole spectrum of rifles, even an old guy with a bdl Rem 700P in 308 loading from the top!

If your match doesn't handicap semi-autos, there's nothing wrong with a large frame AR IME. 243, 260, 6.5cm.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone
That's very interesting Chance. I come from 3-P and in my view from the outside looking in, it seems like the two would have a lot of needs in common, especially the need for equipment adjustability. In my ignorance it seems like there should be a lot in common, rifle-wise anyway. (Except I see more of a trend understandably towards higher capacity cases in PRS.)


Thinking about it, I have seen a couple of tube guns in the past, if you consider the Tubb 2000 a tube gun? David Tubb once competed with one in a match down here in South Texas several years ago.

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Yes, tube guns were pretty much modeled after Tubb guns in an effort to overcome the cost and unavailability of Tubb guns.

Too bad David was too early for PRS, would have been interesting to see what he could have done in the sport in his prime.


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ttt


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The first tube gun was made by Bill Wylde. He had no interest in commercializing it, but his friends did and sold them as the MAK tube gun. Wylde definitely predated TUBB's T2k and I believe that MAK might have as well. Eliseo picked up on the trend and followed suit. Somewhere along the line, there were other one offs. I recently bought a 788 Tube gun in 6BR off a guy that campaigned it in the South West. I'll have to dig up the history for the chronology.
I don't do PRS, but I've been reading that Tube guns are not the hot set-up. For what reason I don't know.

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Depending on where you go for the match, they can vary a lot. Some have 300+ yd movers, crawling , shooting of pallets. Ranges can run from 200 to 1200 yds.

Tube guns are for another sport.


I use Sako TRGs 22, and a 42, and a Ruger precision. Optics run from Razors 5x20. Night force, and Zeiss.


Best thing is to go shoot or watch, ask questions and see if it interests you.
while high B.C. are a great asset, extreme spread in handholds or store bought is almost more important.

dealing with a 10-20 moa side wind at 1000 yds, is bad enough, but 10 moa difference in impact from extreme spread is impossible.

also 6.5s , 6. etc. go through barrels just like a 243. so barrel life is a reality. (lack of)

If you want to look at some stuff thats used go to the GAP website, Mausingfield,

Autos are not competitive, for several reasons,


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WellI think what I`ve done will work..for now,we`ll see. I had Gary Eliseo chassie on my 40-x, which I`ve chambered in 250AI. Problem was the original set up is single shot..son and I using the tube guns for a two man steel match shot near here. I just had Gary send me a new lower assembly to accomidate detachable AI mags.
The gun is heavy, reducing felt recoil, and I had no problems seeing my impacts during the steel matches. I shoot 108gn. JLK`s close to 3150fps. 12x mil-quad SS on it.

First match here in Wi. is April 13th. We could still have snow on the ground.

Thanks for all the input.

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Here's my most recent update. I figured i'd try a faster 6.5; 6.5 Super LR. For years, i'd been shooting my beloved 6.5x47 running 130 and 140's in the 2730 to 2800 range. Recoil is "tolerable" to see impacts/misses. With the 6.5 Super LR, I was able to get the 140 ELD-M running at 2944. Very accurate but too much recoil. I just could't catch my impacts/misses on targets closer than 800 yds. That far out, I could get my optics back on the target in time to mostly see POI. Likely going to sell the Carbon Proof barrel and 400 pc of brass then move to a 22 or 6mm/6.5x47. With the new, longer, high BC bullets I hope to still be competitive. Keeping velocity below 3200, PRS max velocity allowed, will hopefully help with barrel life. I've talked to several competitors who shoot the big 22 and they are not complaining about their barrel life.

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Alan, with the 22 any concerns about seeing impact not because of recoil but actual impact?

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Originally Posted by CGPAUL
I got the SWFA..just need the rifle! Will look into it.


Got a RAR Predator in 6CM that can be had cheap - Timney trigger in it too. And not to far to drive to get it. 8>)


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Originally Posted by Partagas
Alan, with the 22 any concerns about seeing impact not because of recoil but actual impact?


Was just talking to one of our better and nationally known NRL shooters the other day. He shoots a 22 BR with 88 gr ELD-M's at 2990 and has zero issues seeing hits out to 1200.

Alan

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CGPAUL Offline OP
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Well, we took the plunge and signed up for a PRS match in Wi. April 4th. We`re both gonna shoot our Eliseo tube guns, both chambered in 250 AI. He`s shooten 108 JLK`s, I`m gonna try 110 BiB`s. If nothing else, and the weather co-operates a bit, we should have fun.
Thanks for all the suggestions BTB...tho I ques I didn`t follow many?

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Now post-poned till the 25 th.

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Originally Posted by CGPAUL
Now post-poned till the 25 th.


All sorts of matches postponed. Was really looking forward to the NRL22 Nationals just South of Nashville; postponed.

Alan

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Sorry I missed this thread..

Yep I shoot, and built a gun to —- but haven’t had time to really start.
I know a lot of guys in the business locally (GAP, Manners, Vapor Trail bullets, ..). The game is interesting, but pricey.

Frankly F-Class is an off shoot of Highpower, but with slopes and only prone so give that a look.. (a lot of the gear is the same).

I’m going to tune up my 6 creed I built for PRS, by nature I’m a tactical spot shooter, so all this weird PRS stuff (heavy rifle my arse) is a really like american marshal arts .. for compeition more than real tactical...

Anyway - yep me too, but I’m a couple years ahead of you... Buy your Kestrel yet ?

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No Kestrel, no phone, just a home made tape on the scope...just interested in trying this out. Unless again, things change here in Wi., the match, which had been post-poned, is on again for May 16. Hopefully, my son and I will get to shoot it.
I`m not quite as flexable as I once was, so hope I don`t have to contort too much.

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Provided you have your drop logged in 50 yard increments out to the furthest the range you will shoot at has targets you should be good.

Keep in mind that as things heat up your point of impact will move up...

If you haven’t ever shot with Mirage, the target is lower than it looks -aim low !!

The first thing you will learn is that you aren’t allowed to close the bolt without your cheek on the stock (safety rule at just about everywhere).
For whatever reason that screws with a person’s head.

If you have 10 round magazines, or can get them - Take’m ... or you will have to reload at some stations.

you’ll need a good bipod (harris is fine).. and a front bag for shooting off rails and boards.. a challenger bag is best - if it’s hard take some sand out of it so it conforms to what ever you put it on.

WRITE YOUR NAME on stuff that everyone has or it can grow legs ... you’ll get it back, but someone might carry 2 bags for a couple stations.

Make sure you have a sling you can take off, guns are heavy, you have to walk...

You’ll need a good backpack to throw you bags, binoc’s, ammo, ... from station to station.

BINOCULARS... you’ll need to see the layout of the targets before the course of fire begins so you aren’t looking for them when it’s your time to shoot. Many guys bring a tripod & a spotter as well.

Empty action flag ... to put in when not shooting is good.

Let them know you are a new shooter, and to call the shots for you so you can adjust your aim.... things will be more enjoyable that way.

Notice they will have different types of shooting at each station, some are one or shots per target with multiple targets at the station, others will be shoot until you miss and you are done, ....There is a briefing at each station, so pay attention to those.

Barricade stances tend to jack people up, put the bag up, put your feet back and spread square to the targets, and lean forward just a bit to put some pressure on the rifle into the bag.

It’s worth spending some bench time just getting used to chambering when a round is in an open action when you are looking through the scope at a target, and also trying the barricade stance before you get to a match.

What every you do - have fun.

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Very good info...thanks
I did a lot of H.P. when a bit younger, still like to compete, but have never done this. I have all the equipment you suggest, and my range tape on the scope is marked in 50yrd increments. The open bolt move is something I need to concentrate on...as you know rapids in H.P. do not require this.
I have been practicing, now that all the snow is gone and ground drying, I can get out with the mat and do some more.

Thanks again

BTB, what is tactical spot shooting? Suppose I could look it up.

Yep...got it.

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Well, we shot yesterday..weather was nice, no rain or snow. Like nothing we`ve ever shot before,was a challenge. First thing that struck us was the target layout, and the "range". Old corn field with trees and sticks every where..bino`s are a must...good tip..no neat range as in HP., targets helter-skelter, tho once spotted, easy to find when shooting. Match was very well run, no confusion, RO`s were excellent to work with as new shooters, every one was helpfull. Folks in our squad in particular. Targets ranged in distance from 240 to 760..my rifle, scope, ammo worked very well...the operator, not so much. Some brain farts. Need more pracitce with the tri-pod in unsupported positions. If counting, I came in 74th out of 100 shooters, my son at 57th. I was 6th out of 9 in the senior class.

We had a BLAST..

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Most all millennials don't have a clue what the old NRA High-power game was about....commonly called the National Match Course! Shot early on using the US Springfield, M1 Garand, M14, and now what I call the Rat Gun....for which is good for shooting turtles off logs!

Ain't got a clue!! No scopes....all iron sights which 99.9% of folks don't have a clue how to use!!

Shame Shame!!

I'm glad I cut the heart out of the best of it!!


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Sharpsman....yes, thought I knew everything bout shooting till I shot HP. Amazing what can be done with Irons! Kicked a lot of butts in the any rifle/any sight matches.
At the time, one of my biggest thrills was to see the target carrier drop my first shot, first 1k yrd. match at Lodi, Wi.

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God, Family, and Country.
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Also check out X-Ring on Youtube pretty interesting channel


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