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I went out and shot my CORE/RMR again this morning, I still can't believe how much muzzle flip this combo has compared to shooting my 2.0C. I added the TLR-1 light and things were better. I also tried the factory barrel and the only thing different was my group sizes. I may yet give up on this adventure and sell the pistol/sight, if I do I'll let you know on the Apex barrel. It really sucks to have spent so much money with Apex to get this thing shooting like the 2.0C does from the factory.

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Originally Posted by Yondering


Such as varying light conditions, for one. A carry gun might be used in the dark, or in bright noon Arizona sun, and the optic should be automatically functional in either without adjusting settings. An optic on a competition gun can be adjusted for the current conditions, for the most part.

Leupold's motion sensor tech is another one, where the dot is switched on when it detects motion and shuts off after 5 minutes of inactivity. For a range gun that spends most of it's life in the safe, that works great. That same optic carried in your waistband will be switched on all the time, and the electronics should be designed around that.

And of course there's durability. Competition shooting is not fighting. Priorities for a competition or target optic are more towards clear glass, window size, etc (all things the DPP is great for). For a carry gun though, being able to take a beating and always being on, visible, and zeroed are higher priorities.

I'd think anyone looking for a carry optic would want to consider these things before just copying whatever the top competition shooters are using.




I wouldn’t go off the USPSA list either, but only because most shooters are cheap. Durability of RDS’s on pistols is lacking in all but a few. However, the problem with your thinking, is that every single high level organization that uses red dot pistols for real have all come to the conclusion that Auto adjust sucks. There is no difference in using a RDS on a pistol and an RDS on a carbine. Set the brightness to the highest light level expected and shoot with both eyes open. I adjust the brightness once in the morning, and once in the evening.


I’ve been using red dot equipped duty/carry pistols since 2009. This is at the beginning of their use for duty. Between myself and teammates I have seen at least 50,000 rounds put on JP/Tasco/Shield/Trijicon/etc mini’s, Trijicon RMR and Type 2, Leupold DP and Pro, MRDS, Burris, Vortex, etc, etc. All used heavily on duty, carry, and competition pistols under all conditions. From -20 degrees and in 4 feet of snow, to 140 degrees and desert.


The only ones I would mount and use are-

Trijicon RMR 06 Type 2
Leupold Delta Point Pro.





Originally Posted by TWR
I went out and shot my CORE/RMR again this morning, I still can't believe how much muzzle flip this combo has compared to shooting my 2.0C. I added the TLR-1 light and things were better. I also tried the factory barrel and the only thing different was my group sizes. I may yet give up on this adventure and sell the pistol/sight, if I do I'll let you know on the Apex barrel. It really sucks to have spent so much money with Apex to get this thing shooting like the 2.0C does from the factory.



Well, the muzzle flip is the same regardless of irons or dot, it’s just that the dot shows it. Which is really the point of a dot- you see more. If you have an optimum grip and stance, then you learn to except the dot movement and run it.


On average it takes a solidly trained shooter (read B class shooter) around 8,000-10,000 focused rounds to completely master the dot in all situations. The payoff is worth it.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus


On average it takes a solidly trained shooter (read B class shooter) around 8,000-10,000 focused rounds to completely master the dot in all situations. The payoff is worth it.


What does it require to get a novice to exceed the use of irons?


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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
... and I've got the 2.0C cut, so ...


Why did you choose to have your slide milled? You can mount these kinds of sights with an adapter and the rear sight dovetail, can't you? I'm curious as to the benefits of each option.

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We have one dovetail mount on a gun and it just doesn’t seem very rigged. And it make the optic sit much higher than a Miller slide.

With the milling the optic is completely recessed in the slide with tabs protruding into the base of the optic. There’s not much that can move it as long as the Loctite holds.


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your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by Formidilosus

I’ve been using red dot equipped duty/carry pistols since 2009. This is at the beginning of their use for duty. Between myself and teammates I have seen at least 50,000 rounds put on JP/Tasco/Shield/Trijicon/etc mini’s, Trijicon RMR and Type 2, Leupold DP and Pro, MRDS, Burris, Vortex, etc, etc. All used heavily on duty, carry, and competition pistols under all conditions. From -20 degrees and in 4 feet of snow, to 140 degrees and desert.

The only ones I would mount and use are-

Trijicon RMR 06 Type 2
Leupold Delta Point Pro.


Thanks for your insight. Have you had a chance to evaluate the Sig P320 RX as part of your testing?


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by Yondering


Such as varying light conditions, for one. A carry gun might be used in the dark, or in bright noon Arizona sun, and the optic should be automatically functional in either without adjusting settings. An optic on a competition gun can be adjusted for the current conditions, for the most part.

Leupold's motion sensor tech is another one, where the dot is switched on when it detects motion and shuts off after 5 minutes of inactivity. For a range gun that spends most of it's life in the safe, that works great. That same optic carried in your waistband will be switched on all the time, and the electronics should be designed around that.

And of course there's durability. Competition shooting is not fighting. Priorities for a competition or target optic are more towards clear glass, window size, etc (all things the DPP is great for). For a carry gun though, being able to take a beating and always being on, visible, and zeroed are higher priorities.

I'd think anyone looking for a carry optic would want to consider these things before just copying whatever the top competition shooters are using.




I wouldn’t go off the USPSA list either, but only because most shooters are cheap. Durability of RDS’s on pistols is lacking in all but a few. However, the problem with your thinking, is that every single high level organization that uses red dot pistols for real have all come to the conclusion that Auto adjust sucks. There is no difference in using a RDS on a pistol and an RDS on a carbine. Set the brightness to the highest light level expected and shoot with both eyes open. I adjust the brightness once in the morning, and once in the evening.


I’ve been using red dot equipped duty/carry pistols since 2009. This is at the beginning of their use for duty. Between myself and teammates I have seen at least 50,000 rounds put on JP/Tasco/Shield/Trijicon/etc mini’s, Trijicon RMR and Type 2, Leupold DP and Pro, MRDS, Burris, Vortex, etc, etc. All used heavily on duty, carry, and competition pistols under all conditions. From -20 degrees and in 4 feet of snow, to 140 degrees and desert.


The only ones I would mount and use are-

Trijicon RMR 06 Type 2
Leupold Delta Point Pro.



Well, I've only been carrying a red dot Glock of some form every day since 2012 so you've got a couple years on me, and I've only got about 40,000 rounds through the various high end red dots myself. I test my gear pretty thoroughly and have not run into the light issues Bluedreax describes with a LED RMR. The "dual illuminated" versions definitely have those issues though IME. All of my testing and pass/fail criteria are based on personal concealed carry though, not proactive door kicking, and there are some differences that apply to dots as mentioned above.

If you really think you can predict the light level for an unexpected fight with a carry gun, more power to you. Personally I think some of you guys confuse proactive vs reactive stuff sometimes; chances are high you wont' be able to adjust dot brightness of a carry gun when you need it, and I've yet to find a brightness setting that works everywhere on either an RMR or DPP. The dot in my belt right now is an adjustable RM07; I could adjust the brightness if I thought that was better, but it stays on auto mode and is always visible when I need it.

I do agree on choosing between the RMR and DPP, although not necessarily the Type 2 RMR as I've killed 4 in a row in the past year on the same guns that ran the type 1 RMR flawlessly before.
Durability is just the most basic requirement, but you're right that most of the dots out there don't cut it; I've seen most of the others you mention go down as well.

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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux


When you say that "the electronics should be designed around that" it seems like your implying that they're not. If the DPP electronics aren't robust enough to handle constant on use then please tell us where you're getting that from, because I'd sure like to know about it.


I'm saying battery life for the DPP is designed around the optic shutting off when not in use. I didn't say anything about durability or whether it's robust enough or not.

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Yondering,

Do you think MRDS are suitable for duty carry or not?


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
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Originally Posted by Yondering


Well, I've only been carrying a red dot Glock of some form every day since 2012 so you've got a couple years on me, and I've only got about 40,000 rounds through the various high end red dots myself. I test my gear pretty thoroughly and have not run into the light issues Bluedreax describes with a LED RMR. The "dual illuminated" versions definitely have those issues though IME. All of my testing and pass/fail criteria are based on personal concealed carry though, not proactive door kicking, and there are some differences that apply to dots as mentioned above.





How many did you put 40,000 rounds through? How long did it take you to put 40,000 rounds through one.



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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
We have one dovetail mount on a gun and it just doesn’t seem very rigged. And it make the optic sit much higher than a Miller slide.

With the milling the optic is completely recessed in the slide with tabs protruding into the base of the optic. There’s not much that can move it as long as the Loctite holds.


Thanks for the info

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Form,

The fiddle fugking with brightness on a duty gun bothers me.

Would you carry one sans iron sights? And do you think co-witnessing is imperative?


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
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How do you like the Overwatch Precision set up ? I had Glockmeister do the polish job on my model 40 trigger when I purchased it and I do not have any issues with it but I am always looking for improvements.

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Irons help you pick up the dot quicker as you learn to shoot it. I’m no expert but I’ve noticed that much.

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Originally Posted by deflave
Yondering,

Do you think MRDS are suitable for duty carry or not?


I'm not law enforcement so can't speak from experience there. However, a number of guys in my training group are, and feel that the LED RMR sights are good to go for duty carry. They can certainly handle a beating, as we've verified in training. Of course a solid mount is part of the requirement for being able to take a beating; MOS systems seem to be marginal and dovetail mounts aren't even worth considering.

jwp475, I mean about 40,000 rounds total through red dot equipped carry guns. Over 7 years that's probably a pretty low estimate; I average ~1K rounds per month in 9mm alone although a small portion of that is with stock guns too. The optics in question were mostly RMR LED versions (I've had 8 or 9 of them) plus a couple DPPs, some other stuff like the old DP, dual illum RMR, RMS Shield, Vortex junk etc on friend's gear.

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Originally Posted by deflave


What does it require to get a novice to exceed the use of irons?


That’s a bit of a convoluted answer. What I was alluding to with 10k rounds was “mastery”. The issue with a dot isn’t in accuracy or speed once the dot has been found, it’s in finding the dot under stress with a less than perfect draw/position. It’s not that’s it untrainable, it’s just that few put the work in to get their draw and presentation burned in. Where this shows itself is when a person new to the dot goes into FOF, pulls the pistol up and can’t find the dot. A lot of the time they will start shooting through the window rather than finding the dot or sights because they feel they are behind the curve. The answer to that is of course correct training, driving the sights first to pick the dot up, and emotional control.


If I had my way, everyone would start with the dot from the beginning. So to answer your question three days with 1,000’ish rounds with intensive, structured FOF to drive training and emotional control objectives home.






Originally Posted by RufusG

Why did you choose to have your slide milled? You can mount these kinds of sights with an adapter and the rear sight dovetail, can't you? I'm curious as to the benefits of each option.


Blue answered already, but dovetailed dots aren’t the way to go for real use. First Co-witnessed irons are a requirement. Second, there’s already a training issue with dots, mounting them higher above where traditional sights are, only compounds this.






Originally Posted by Cheyenne

Thanks for your insight. Have you had a chance to evaluate the Sig P320 RX as part of your testing?


Yes. The pistols are fine, but I wouldn’t choose to use the Sig red dot unless I had no choice.







Originally Posted by Yondering
]

If you really think you can predict the light level for an unexpected fight with a carry gun, more power to you. Personally I think some of you guys confuse proactive vs reactive stuff sometimes; chances are high you wont' be able to adjust dot brightness of a carry gun when you need it, and I've yet to find a brightness setting that works everywhere on either an RMR or DPP. The dot in my belt right now is an adjustable RM07; I could adjust the brightness if I thought that was better, but it stays on auto mode and is always visible when I need it.

I do agree on choosing between the RMR and DPP, although not necessarily the Type 2 RMR as I've killed 4 in a row in the past year on the same guns that ran the type 1 RMR flawlessly before.
Durability is just the most basic requirement, but you're right that most of the dots out there don't cut it; I've seen most of the others you mention go down as well.



I don’t think I can predict anything. The dot is kept bright enough so it’s visable in the harshest (brightest) light I will find myself in.

While I will concede that a lot of mil dudes do not recognize the differences between work when they have 6 of their best friends with them, and going to the movie theater on the weekend- I do know the differences. I’m sitting eating Thai right now with a G19 and RMR in appendix. It is nighttime, yet the dot is set bright enough that I can see it even while looking into lights. There’s zero issue if I use it outside and the dot is “too bright”. Both eyes open and you can still aim fine. Not ideal maybe, but works much better than an auto adjust, being outside in the dark and needing to shooting into a lighted area/building, or around vehicle headlights.

All of us started with auto adjust dots. We all thought that was the way to go. However we have been in enough situations where the dot wasn’t bright enough. All of us now use adjustable intensity sights. I would rather have a dot too bright and bloomed out yet still usable, than not be able to see it at all. After about the fifth time having to use the BUIS to make a shot, I had enough.


This is not to say that I think auto adjust dots are unusable or whatever. Just that while auto adjust works most of the time, when it doesn’t- it doesn’t at all. User adjustables are rarely perfect for the lighting conditions you are in, but they can be set where I’m never having to go to the irons.




Originally Posted by deflave
Form,

The fiddle fugking with brightness on a duty gun bothers me.

Would you carry one sans iron sights? And do you think co-witnessing is imperative?



I would not carry one without co-witnessed irons. Co-witnessing is a requirement on a standard carry/duty pistol. Specialty uses like the Geissele 6 Second mount withstanding, there is no dot that is 100% reliable right now. We have seen very good service from the RMR Type 2’s, however I don’t think we’ll see a dot that’s “there” until the Aimpoint gets out.


On the adjustable brightness. If you bloom it out ridiculously and take it inside a room, you can still aim it both eyes open. As above, I and everyone I know that uses a dot adjusts it twice a day- once in the morning you turn it up, as evening hits you turn it down two levels. Same as the carbine.

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Originally Posted by deflave
Form,

The fiddle fugking with brightness on a duty gun bothers me.

Would you carry one sans iron sights? And do you think co-witnessing is imperative?


That is what bothers me too, and is why I commented earlier; I want my carry gun to be ready to go all the time, without having to adjust anything for current conditions. Especially concerning to me is the possibility of forgetting to turn down the brightness when it gets dark or you leave an indoor area; a bright dot can obscure the whole window. Going the other way is less of a problem as the dot is not there but you can use the irons.

IMO co-witnessed irons are imperative. I would not carry a serious pistol without co-witnessed irons; I'd rather go back to irons only if I had to choose one or the other. Even past the "training wheels" stage, co-witnessed irons are part of my daily check, used to verify the dot is still zeroed.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus



On the adjustable brightness. If you bloom it out ridiculously and take it inside a room, you can still aim it both eyes open. As above, I and everyone I know that uses a dot adjusts it twice a day- once in the morning you turn it up, as evening hits you turn it down two levels. Same as the carbine.


And I and most of the guys I know, which includes some door kickers and LE guys in my training group, prefer the auto adjust. I haven't had the trouble you've had, and it's not for lack of trying. Only time I've had an LED RMR dot wash out is when aiming directly at a bright light source (ie spotlight, headlight, etc), but that's just because the LED physically isn't bright enough on max, not because it didn't adjust. It's pretty easy for anyone with a red dot to verify this stuff for themselves, so you can all figure out what works for you.

One thing I've seen from those who've apparently read about dots but not used them - there seems to be an assumption that the RMR sights adjust brightness based on the light conditions where the shooter is. That's not been my experience; the light sensor is pointed forward like the dot, and adjusts brightness based on where it's pointed. The "dual illuminated" RMR sights are the opposite, their brightness is dependent on light over the shooter, and does not compensate for aiming into a brighter area.

We all have different perspectives on this stuff, but some of the advice I've seen here (including from Blue who came here asking for input) seems to be based on the idea that what's good for one application (like competition or special ops) is automatically good for another (like carry). I do take issue with that, and with some exceptions I think most of us here are intelligent enough to consider the differences.

A couple other points Form - you keep mentioning both eyes open. Yeah, I kind of take that for granted since I've always done that; IMO anyone serious about this stuff should be shooting with both eyes open if they can, along with practicing to aim with either eye.
About the dot blooming the window when it's too bright - that's not too much of a problem when the lens is clear, but concealed carry pistols tend to pick up lint and gunk in the window and the blooming can get a lot worse, to the point the optic is useless and in the way. IMO you're opting to deal with a much higher likelihood of that happening, while I'm opting to deal with a very small likelihood the dot won't be visible but the irons will still be available.


One final thought - for guys who do insist on setting a fixed brightness and screwing with it several times a day - that's a whole lot easier on an adjustable RMR than it is on the DPP with it's single center button.

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yondering with the auto adjustable brightness models if your using a high lumen tactical light and the dot has a gotten dim in the dark, once you switch the light on does the auto adjust bring the dot illumination up fast enough? I would think it would be faster than you could pull a trigger but just wondered on the RMR if light on, shoot instantly was possible.


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Formidilio and Blue,

Thanks for the responses.

My personal take on them is the technology just isn't there yet. 20K guys fiddle fugking with brightness settings twice a day on a duty optic just isn't my idea of practical.

You both stating that you'd not run them without co-witnessing irons concerns me as well. Seems they're just not ready.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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