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#13438186 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: jwp475]  
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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm


"...Field reports of squib loads from a result of the compressed powder coagulating in the African heat, caused more than a few dangerous situations; there were reports of bullets actually bouncing off an elephant’s hide—the problem was real."

What does this mean? I've never heard of coagulated powder before.


Bullets “bouncing off an elephants hide” I’m calling BS on this.


I cannot prove or disprove this (Bullets bouncing off).....but many years ago (‘60’s) I read of some African hunters having experiences with “squib” loads. Much reduced velocity, with zero or near zero penetration! memtb


You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

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#13438246 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: memtb]  
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jwp475 Offline
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Originally Posted by memtb
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm


"...Field reports of squib loads from a result of the compressed powder coagulating in the African heat, caused more than a few dangerous situations; there were reports of bullets actually bouncing off an elephant’s hide—the problem was real."

What does this mean? I've never heard of coagulated powder before.


Bullets “bouncing off an elephants hide” I’m calling BS on this.


I cannot prove or disprove this (Bullets bouncing off).....but many years ago (‘60’s) I read of some African hunters having experiences with “squib” loads. Much reduced velocity, with zero or near zero penetration! memtb


I’ve read the same BS but not in the 60’s those claims came latter. Reduced velocity probable but even 1700 FPS will penetrate and kill elephant. Too many have been killed with revolvers at 1200 t0 1400 FPS. I have a hard time believing those claims without detailed info with proper examination



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
#13438383 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: jwp475]  
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gunner500 Offline
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Yup, I shot a bedded Eland bull in the right ham at 60 yards with a Sharps rifle and cast lead bullets I put up myself, had the skinners hand me the bullet from his left shoulder, that 8-9 feet of penetration from a bullet leaving at 1365 fps.


MOLON-LABE you commie vaginas!
#13438487 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: gunner500]  
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No doubt that heavy, solids at low velocity, I have been a “handgun hunter” (part time) since the ‘70’s, will penetrate and kill. As the shots were not taken across a chronograph, we have no knowledge of the velocities. As a “squib load”, already a cartridge failure, the velocity may have been well under 1000 fps. Again......assuming it happened, at all! memtb


You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
#13438540 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: Ranting]  
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Tell you what, lads. I'll ask some of the older PHs at DSC about the 458 issue ( I KNOW for a fact the squib load issue with impacted ball powder due to excessive compression was real) and get back to you.


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#13438544 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: memtb]  
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gunner500 Offline
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Agreed, I have heard about massive compression of early ball powders in the 458 causing ignition problems, probably ww-748, thank god for todays powders, I even use the old H-335 to get a reliable and easy 2150 fps with 500 gr Woodleigh and Partition bullets, same charge under the 450gr BBW #13 solids for better than 2300 fps, that has to be a hell of a penetrator.


MOLON-LABE you commie vaginas!
#13439372 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: Ranting]  
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All that makes sense - compressed load affecting powder ignition resulting in very low speed load that caused the projectile to bounce of an elephant (I've experienced ignition issues and fail to ignite when working up cast projectile loads with too slow a powder). I don't think the term the powder "coagulated" is correct. Maybe the problem was a combined issue of compression + heat (high ambient temperatures)?

And maybe coagulation refers to the appearance of any unburnt powder afterwards. When I had the ignition problems in the early days of my cast load experiments, the black deterrent coating on the powder was blown/burnt off exposing the yellow nitrocellulose, and the powder would clump together (partially melted?) but you cause squeeze it apart again using finger pressure. It was really weird - the primer pressure alone was enough to drive the lead projectile into the start of the rifling (and hard to remove) but not ignite the powder of even blow the cotton ball wad on top of the powder out of the case. If someone had told me this could happen I wouldn't have believed them, but I saw it first hand. Mind you not all the loads did this - most fired or hang fired, and the stuck projectile ended my session at the range for the day.

#13439672 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: jorgeI]  
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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Tell you what, lads. I'll ask some of the older PHs at DSC about the 458 issue ( I KNOW for a fact the squib load issue with impacted ball powder due to excessive compression was real) and get back to you.


Couldn't find his account but Ganyana wrote about first hand experience with 458WM failures.

Here is the jist of it-

https://www.shootersforum.com/african-hunting/106065-ammunition-cheap-passing-legends.html

IIRC he was given a Parks 458 which did not penetrate and he finished the job with a lighter rifle.
I believe Don also wrote of an appy shooting an elephant with no results and the bullet was later found to be sticking into the hide without penetrating the skull.

#13439862 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: 86thecat]  
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Originally Posted by 86thecat
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Tell you what, lads. I'll ask some of the older PHs at DSC about the 458 issue ( I KNOW for a fact the squib load issue with impacted ball powder due to excessive compression was real) and get back to you.


Couldn't find his account but Ganyana wrote about first hand experience with 458WM failures.

Here is the jist of it-

https://www.shootersforum.com/african-hunting/106065-ammunition-cheap-passing-legends.html

IIRC he was given a Parks 458 which did not penetrate and he finished the job with a lighter rifle.
I believe Don also wrote of an appy shooting an elephant with no results and the bullet was later found to be sticking into the hide without penetrating the skull.



Not reaching the brain, I buy bouncing off of the hide I’m not buying.



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
#13440294 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: Ranting]  
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It is hard to imagine, especially since there is no mention of squib load.

I have an african hunting DVD at home where the guy is hunting elephants (and buffalo) with various double rifles. I recall that he is using a 577NE double and shoots an elephant straight in the forehead and only "brains" it, meaning it's only stunned and goes down to it's knees (and able to recover after a short period of time if allowed). He then goes around the side and puts a finishing shot in the side of the head. He comments that this is typical behaviour for this cartridge and that this technique was used by some well know hunter.

It was titled "Death by Double Rifle" by "Big Bore Productions" - I'll have to dig it out tonight and revisit the particular scene.

Last edited by mauserand9mm; 01/10/19.
Bravo

#13440534 - 01/10/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: Ranting]  
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86thecat Offline
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Hope this saves some google time, 577 and Elephants-
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/472102309/p/1/xsl/print_topic
Couldn't find the article about 577's I was looking for, seems like a lot from 10 years ago has gone by the wayside online. African Hunter had quite a library of articles that seem to be awol.

#13440923 - 01/11/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: 86thecat]  
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gunner500 Offline
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Interesting read on the AR link, Thanks 86, that guy was using a woefully under powered 577 load, I have an Ele load for my 577 double, the 750gr Barnes banded solid at a beautifully regulated to the sights 2076 fps would be near unstoppable, I put that load through a near 2ft across dead seasoned oak here at the farm I later sawed up for fire wood, never shot and Ele, but, that would have to work.


MOLON-LABE you commie vaginas!
#13460657 - 01/16/19 Re: Any Reason for a 458 Lott ? [Re: jwp475]  
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458 Lott Offline
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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by 86thecat
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Tell you what, lads. I'll ask some of the older PHs at DSC about the 458 issue ( I KNOW for a fact the squib load issue with impacted ball powder due to excessive compression was real) and get back to you.


Couldn't find his account but Ganyana wrote about first hand experience with 458WM failures.

Here is the jist of it-

https://www.shootersforum.com/african-hunting/106065-ammunition-cheap-passing-legends.html

IIRC he was given a Parks 458 which did not penetrate and he finished the job with a lighter rifle.
I believe Don also wrote of an appy shooting an elephant with no results and the bullet was later found to be sticking into the hide without penetrating the skull.



Not reaching the brain, I buy bouncing off of the hide I’m not buying.



Agreed. Years ago I was fiddling around with cat fart loads with my 35 whelen using 148 gr wadcutters. I loaded down to the point bullets wouldn't leave the barrel, then added a tad more powder until the bullets would leave. Never chronoed the loads but I imagine they were 300 fps or there about. Even at that sedate velocity I was getting 1" penetration in a phone book at point blank range.

Now if a 148 dead soft wadcutter will penetrate 1/2 way through a phone book, I'd imagine a 500 gr solid at squib level whatever that is would not simply bounce off the skin of an elephant. It takes more pressure to engrave a solid than a dead soft wadcutter so even a squib is likely leaving the barrel at least 700 fps if not 1000 fps and a 500 gr at that speed is going to be capable of much more penetration than most would believe.


Donald Trump wasn't elected president in spite of who he is and how he acts, he was elected precisely because of who is and how he acts. Remember that.
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