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According to you guys, the precise scopes, bullets blah blah [bleep] blah, turn the turrets and let er chew..... I mean, numbers don't mean shiit if bullets and swfa piles of shiit are as accurate as both of you say..... hint


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
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Or simply get off your cuunts and get within 450 yards, which I s really super hard!!!!! Laffin


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
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Originally Posted by Judman
According to you guys, the precise scopes, bullets blah blah [bleep] blah, turn the turrets and let er chew..... I mean, numbers don't mean shiit if bullets and swfa piles of shiit are as accurate as both of you say..... hint

Hint......you can’t buy proficiency. Improved bullets and scopes, and higher “numbers”, simply enable the proficient to be proficient at a wider range of distances than they were proficient at before.

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Originally Posted by Judman
Or simply get off your cuunts and get within 450 yards, which I s really super hard!!!!! Laffin

I like to be able to seal the deal, near or far, and have done plenty of both.

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Near is more apt than far, everytime.... I somehow get by quite handily with junk Leopold every time, and never ask myself "what if"... But I don't get out much... Hint


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
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Right on. You only have yourself to please. You could get by quite handily with a front stuffer and irons, and I’d be happy for you. Wouldn’d bother me a bit. I happen to be quite interested not only in chasing critters, but also in modern ballistics, increasing my capability to make hits at whatever distance, and discussing same with other interested parties. Never said you had to do it my way, and I don’t plan on doing it yours wink

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Right on. You only have yourself to please. You could get by quite handily with a front stuffer and irons, and I’d be happy for you. Wouldn’d bother me a bit. I happen to be quite interested not only in chasing critters, but also in modern ballistics, increasing my capability to make hits at whatever distance, and discussing same with other interested parties. Never said you had to do it my way, and I don’t plan on doing it yours wink




Good post right there!



There are posts and threads I seriously disagree with,
That's ok.

They don't have to use the stuff I do,
I'm not diminished if someone loves hunting moose with a Savage 22 Hornet,
Or prairie dogs with a 700 H&H.


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Originally Posted by elkcountry
Why not get the best of both worlds like I did and get a 270 Weatherby!

Elk Country


I like my 270 Weatherby. I like my 270 Win. I like my 280. I like my 308. I like my 30 06. I like my 300 mags. I like my 338. I like my 358. I like my 9.3x62. I like my 223, 22-250, 243 and 6.8 SPC too, but not for elk, moose or other large game.


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Hell has open borders.

Let that sink in.....

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I agree with Dillon.

Nice post Jordan!


"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills












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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Right on. You only have yourself to please. You could get by quite handily with a front stuffer and irons, and I’d be happy for you. Wouldn’d bother me a bit. I happen to be quite interested not only in chasing critters, but also in modern ballistics, increasing my capability to make hits at whatever distance, and discussing same with other interested parties. Never said you had to do it my way, and I don’t plan on doing it yours wink


And he still doesn't need a magnum to hunt elk, which was the question....


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
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Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Right on. You only have yourself to please. You could get by quite handily with a front stuffer and irons, and I’d be happy for you. Wouldn’d bother me a bit. I happen to be quite interested not only in chasing critters, but also in modern ballistics, increasing my capability to make hits at whatever distance, and discussing same with other interested parties. Never said you had to do it my way, and I don’t plan on doing it yours wink


And he still doesn't need a magnum to hunt elk, which was the question....

I never said that he did. I entered this thread to weigh in on an incorrect ballistic statement that was made in the course of discussion. In fact, I said that either can be made to work just fine, as can a .358 Win, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30-06, or .375 H&H.

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

Well, if we’re talking about comparing loads in two specific rifles, then we should clarify the barrel length and twist rate of those barrels. Not an idealized, normalized comparison, but an actual comparison of the ballistics provided by various loads on your rifles. The .270’s 22” barrelled velocity is real world. What twist rate does it have? That makes a difference. If a factory R700 and 10” twist, then Bryan Litz’ testing says the true G1 BC of the LRAB exiting your barrel is around 0.550.

He tested the 7mm 150 LRAB at 0.576 G1 BC using a common 9” twist. Assuming a 7RM of the same weight as your .270, a minimum charge of H4350 or H100v would generate about 18.3 ft-lbs of recoil and about 2830 fps. Likewise, the 162 ELD-X at 2755 fps using a min load of IMR 4451 generates 18.7 ft-lbs. The recoil would be less in a rifle heavier than your .270. Both of those loads drift less in the wind at 600 than the .270/150 LRAB, and the recoil is comparable.

As an aside,
the 143 ELD-X from the 6.5 Creedmoor at 2750 fps also drifts less in the wind at 600 than the .270 load, and would recoil even less for her.


Jordan -

First, thank you for your thoughtful and civil response.

Daughter's .270 is a lefty factory M700 with whatever the standard twist was back in 1970. I have not measured it but assume 1-10. My 7mm RM, a Ruger M77 made in 1982, is also factory stock and assumed to be 1-9.5, which is the current Ruger twist.

My original thought was to buy a rifle for the action, then rebarrel to 6.5PRC, 6.5-06 or 6.5-06AI. If the .270 I purchased hadn't been accurate, I would be looking at rebarreling to one of the latter two. (I reload for the 6.5-06AI and her husband reloads as well.) At this point it is moot as the .270 does everything needed with superb accuracy. Daughter is very happy with it (a BDL model in good shape) and that is what matters most to me. I've taken time to glass bed it and check and adjust the trigger. Her hubby will probably replace the trigger with a Timney.

If Bryan Litz is correct about the .270/150g LRAB, the difference between 6.5/143 ELD-X @ 2750fps and the .270/150 LRAB @ 2910fps is pretty thin. Nosler reduced the B.C. values for many of their LRAB bullets based on testing by EMRTC in New Mexico, which provided the .591 value for the .270/150 LRAB. In any case, we will shoot her .270 out to 600 to verify what the B.C value is for her rifle. Whether .550 or .591, the difference in drift is only 1.3" at 600.

Thanks again.
CH


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No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Well, since you already own, have tuned, and like the rifle (.270), the ballistic advantage of a 6.5 Creedmoor or 7RM is likely not the largest factor in your choice. Although the Creedmoor does recoil significantly less than the .270 wink

Here is a chart Bryan put together showing the results of his testing using different twist rates and stability factors (SG’s):

[Linked Image]

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Jordon, nice job of keeping the discussion on track and passing on good information. Typical Canadian, polite and respectful!

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Originally Posted by patbrennan
Jordon, nice job of keeping the discussion on track and passing on good information. Typical Canadian, polite and respectful!


I agree. Jordan is always laid back and polite. That being said the original thread turned off track, which they usually do, to no fault of Jordan's.


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
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Just looking at the 150 gr numbers, not enough real difference to make a whit at 400+ yards for the hunter. 7mm Weatherby leaves the .270 Win in the dust with a close BC as does the 7mm Remington Magnum. Yes, both have more recoil.


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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Well, since you already own, have tuned, and like the rifle (.270), the ballistic advantage of a 6.5 Creedmoor or 7RM is likely not the largest factor in your choice. Although the Creedmoor does recoil significantly less than the .270 wink
...


Jordan -

As you correctly surmised, there were a number of things considered when the .270 purchase was made. Daughter #1 has been using a .308 Win with a 130g TTSX (B.C. .35 claimed) at 3045fps chrono'd. Using the admittedly arbitrary values of 2000fps and 1500fpe as the yardstick, the primary goal was to give her extended reach with minimal recoil increase.

More or less in order of importance, where close or better counts:
1. Left handed
2. 2000fps, 1500fpe @ 600 yards
3. Recoil
4. Drift
5. Drop
6. Rifle make and model
7. Even money for her unwanted, right-handed .30-06
8. Factory hunting ammo availability and variety
9. Rifle availability

The M700 BDL fit those parameters very well. The fact that it was made in 1975 gave me some concern regarding barrel condition, but I needn't have worried - test loads with the 150g LRAB printed half MOA 3-shot groups with two powders, both using consecutive 0.5g powder increments. That's how I arrived at 2910fps - it was the middle load with H100V.

Agreed, the 6.5 Creed would recoil less. Her hubby has two - a heavy barrel M700 and (IIRC) a Ruger American Predator. Daughter will probably shoot them but they are, for her, wrong-handed.



Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/22/19. Reason: corrected numbering: 1,2,4... to 1,2,3...

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280 AI.

What was the question? wink


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I watched 2 different people kill elk with 150 gr bullets out of a 270 Winchester. I guess it was a good thing they didn't know they weren't properly armed. They just shot the elk, the elk died. I guess if they would have used a 7 mm Mag the elk would have been deader or crippled when they flinched and muffed the shot.? Kiss principle here people , the woman has a 270 she likes and has faith in, leave well enough alone don't need to undermine her faith in her self. MB


" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


Case in point,
we spotted elk at 1100 yards this year. Neither Daughter #1 or her hubby had ever taken an elk and none of use were prepared for a shot that long.
We closed to 476 yards, at an altitude (~8500 feet) and wind conditions (essentially none) where Daughter's .308 Win/130g TTSX @ 3045fps MV
would have been adequate. While would have been quite happy to take the shot, Daughter #1 was not comfortable shooting at that range. By the
time we closed to her comfort range the elk were gone.

Granted, I used this event as an excuse to get her a .270 Win and develop a 150g LRAB load that delivers elk-killing velocity and energy
(2000fps and 1500fpe is my rule of thumb)


Your rule of thumb is 1500 fpe.... 130 ttsx 3045mv would not deliver that at 476 yds...,yet you say you would be happy to take the shot.

If manufacturer claimed BC for 130ttsx can be relied on, you would have about 1360 fpe./ 476 yd
However tests on Barnes bullets show real world BC can be below published numbers in some cases by well over 5%
which could potentially bring energy down to around 1300 fpe / 476 yd. (8500 Alt..)...or 1243 fpe / 476 yd. ( 7000 Alt.)


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


Daughter #1 has done her elk hunting with a .308 Win and 130g TTSX @ 3045fps. I figure that would have worked out
to about 500 yards at 7000 feet and above,.


130 ttsx /500yd (7000ft) would give about 1250 fpe , if claimed BC .350 is correct.
with a possible B.C. error of up to 5% , it could be more like 1195 fpe / 500 yd.

That is significantly below 1500 fpe, so Im left wondering what the actual real world minimum energy level is that you would
be prepared to shoot elk with?


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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