24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
T
tzone Offline OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
A buddy and I were having a few cold ones after work today. We got to talkin about hunting elk in a few years as he has a contact in CO and asked if I’d be interested. Neither on of us had ever shot an elk. I was telling him about the new M700 I was looking at and said I was thinking about a .270 since it’s been so long since I’ve had one. He said I “need” a mag if we head west.

Now I know damn well I don’t need a mag and was showing him some ballistics that pretty much meant nothing since he has a 7mag for deer that’s what he’d use for elk too.

I have plenty of others I could use, but not a .270 or 7mag.

For those of you that have used them on elk, which one?


Camp is where you make it.
BP-B2

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 317
C
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
C
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 317
I used a 7mm RM with 175 grn Partitions for my first elk and have since taken elk with a .280, .270 and .308 in that order. I saw no difference in performance. Conversely, I much prefer to shoot, and hence practice more with the non-magnums.

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,368
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,368
I know it’s good clean fun for guys here to bash the 270 round, but when I’m out west hunting elk (Every place I’ve hunted!) they bash the 7mm Mag like no other round. I thought that was odd. Lots of places out there even give the 270 a pass.....definitely not so with the 7 mag. It seems to be limited only to elk hunts...it stood out enough to me that it was indeed noticeable.

I personally don’t see either round as a limiting factor providing it’s used as intended...ie, no 800 yard raking shots, etc. If you bust that oil pump, it’s going down.


You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
T, the 270 will be just fine....


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,690
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,690
The hardest part of elk hunting is, finding an elk to shoot......

I’ve killed elk with the .338 mag, .358 win, .270, .260 and now the 6.5 CM.....oh, and pointed sticks.
Whether your strafing bulls across a canyon or popping a cow in a low land meadow, your going to shoot better and more confidently with a firearm your comfortable with.

I’d personally prefer to buy a .270 that I would find more useful for the other hunting I do.
The 7 mag is going to be longer, heavier, louder, more expensive to feed and recoil more than a .270 in the same model.....

There’s plenty of good factory ammo options available for hunting elk, at reasonable prices and some amazing bullets for the hand loader.

Elk hunting: Go now. It won’t get cheaper and you won’t get younger......

Last edited by Blacktail53; 01/11/19.

BT53
"Where do they find young men like this?" Reporter Savidge, Iraq
Elk, it's what's for dinner....


IC B2

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
W
WAM Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
Godawgs, I never heard anyone “bash” the 7mm Magnum as an elk rifle “out here”. Anyone who does probably is in the sauce around the fire. Might get a sideways glance or two if the .270 is touted too much! LOL! Not arguing the potential effectiveness of either other than to say that I’ve seen a dump truck load of elk cleanly killed by various 7mm magnums. Nobody I know hunts elk with a .270 Winchester, but that is statistically irrelevant I know.

Most of the western states limit deer and elk to one or two tags a year so it’s not like the magnums are going to break the ammo bank anyway. Happy Trails


Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,427
B
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
B
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,427
The 7mm mag will out perform the .270.

I own a .270 (my wife's) and not a 7mm mag.

Either will work just fine

-Jake

Last edited by Bocajnala; 01/11/19.

Small Game, Deer, Turkey, Bear, Elk....It's what's for dinner.

If you know how many guns you own... you don't own enough.

In God We Trust.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,723
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,723
Originally Posted by Bocajnala
The 7mm mag will out perform the .270.

I own a .270 (my wife's) and not a 7mm mag.

Either will work just fine

-Jake



My math must be all fu cked up. That doesn't add up. 1 "outperforms" the other when they both produce dead elk? How many times do we need to say this. It's all about the bullet, not the headstamp...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506
TZ, You’d be good to go with a 270 as long as your wearing flaming orange from head to boot. Might I suggest dropping a little more horsepower in the engine by ramping up to a 270 WSM. You’ll find some decent BC bullets from Nosler LRAB’s. May give you some extra MPH. 😎


Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog
“Molon Labe”
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,427
B
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
B
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,427
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by Bocajnala
The 7mm mag will out perform the .270.

I own a .270 (my wife's) and not a 7mm mag.

Either will work just fine

-Jake



My math must be all fu cked up. That doesn't add up. 1 "outperforms" the other when they both produce dead elk? How many times do we need to say this. It's all about the bullet, not the headstamp...



What doesn't add up? What I stated is not debateable. The 7mm mag will outperform the .270 across the board. That's just fact.

I've shot elk with a .45-70, but that doesn't mean it's in the same class as, or does the same things as, a .270 or 7mm mag. But it still resulted in a dead elk.

The question wasn't "which of these will kill an elk?" It was to compare the two. "Either will work just fine." Was my answer, and they will. And the 7mm mag will still have higher performing numbers than the .270. although I've never met an elk that would be able to tell the difference.

When comparing two options it should go without saying that we compare similar loads for each. Nobody is going to compare a 90 grain Speer TNT hollow point.270 with a 7mm mag loaded with 175gr eld-x's .

It's not only about the bullet. Or only about the headstamp. Everything plays a factor when the question is between multiple options.

Back to my original point.... Between the two.... It doesn't matter. Pick whichever makes you smile.

-Jake


Small Game, Deer, Turkey, Bear, Elk....It's what's for dinner.

If you know how many guns you own... you don't own enough.

In God We Trust.
IC B3

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 518
J
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
J
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 518
I'd go with the .270, and use a premium bullet just like I would with any cartridge on elk.
Factory ammo between the two with similar bullet weights is surprisingly close in performance.

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 963
D
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 963
Either one will be fine. I like the 270 because of the light weight options that can be had with a shorter barrel. When hunting elk in the mountains, saving a little weight can be a good thing. Have seen literally tons of elk killed with the 270 win.

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,220
M
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
M
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,220
the 270 works been working since 1925

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,556
S
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,556
I have shot quite a few elk with my 7 mag and 160 Partitions loaded to 3000 fps. The .270 will work, too, but if you are buying a new rifle, it is hard to beat the 7 mag. Bullets from 140, up to 175 gives you much better selection, than with the .270.


You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck.
Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,859
C
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
C
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,859
I've had a 7 mag the first year they came out. Never had a thought about a 270 as it has done everything I have asked of it.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
T
tzone Offline OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
Originally Posted by Beaver10
TZ, You’d be good to go with a 270 as long as your wearing flaming orange from head to boot. Might I suggest dropping a little more horsepower in the engine by ramping up to a 270 WSM. You’ll find some decent BC bullets from Nosler LRAB’s. May give you some extra MPH. 😎


I’ll probably use an 06 or a .308. I just got a kick out of the fact I “needed” a 7mag.


Camp is where you make it.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
T
tzone Offline OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
Originally Posted by mooshoo
the 270 works been working since 1925


Pretty much what I was trying to tell him.


Camp is where you make it.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,731
S
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,731
Tzone, As you said either round is plenty for elk. If you plan on doing a lot of elk hunting and can dedicate a rifle to it, then I might go with the 7RM. It is a great elk killer. Living and hunting where you are now, I can't see a need for 7RM. The .270 would be, in my opinion, more useful. Moreover, if you are a reloader you can get near 7RM power out of the .270. I'm thinking R26 and 150gr Nosler Partition at 3000fps out of the .270 is your huckleberry.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
tzone -

Elk are tough. You don't need a magnum, you need a small cannon. wink

Yesterday I loaded up 150g Nosler Long Range AccuBond for Daughter #1. Cartridge is .270 Win and chrono velocity using a COL of 3.460" is 2910fps.

[Linked Image]

The downrange ballistics for these are better than the 7mm RM load I used exclusively for 20+ years and again in 2015 when I took my elk at a lasered 411 yards, 4 steps and down. Recoil is calculated at about 18 foot-pounds in daughters Remington M700 BDL.

My only advice for elk hunting is "Don't wait". DYI hunts are reasonably inexpensive. And lots of fun.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,791
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,791
Originally Posted by mooshoo
the 270 works been working since 1925

Bullet construction and bullet placement are way more important than bullet diameter.

I now have rifles in both .270 Win and 7 mm RM. I've killed elk with my 7 mm RM and I've killed elk and seen elk killed with both smaller and larger caliber rifles.

I started hunting elk in the late '60s when I moved to northwestern Colorado. At that time I didn't own a centerfire rifle, so I asked the local natives that I worked with what rifle to buy. They said either a .270 Win or a .30-06. I chose a .30-06 and killed a pile of elk with it.

I had wanted a 7 mm RM for many years, but I couldn't justify buying one, because there isn't a whole lot of actual difference between it and a .30-06. I didn't finally buy a 7 mm RM until 2001, and the one that I have now is my second. Its stainless in a plastic stock and is my foul weather elk rifle and is one rifle that I've taken on 4 international hunts.

I've always liked .30 caliber rifles for elk, and my favorite elk rifle now is my .300 Weatherby.


SAVE 200 ELK, KILL A WOLF

NRA Endowment Life Member

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,723
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,723
Originally Posted by tzone
Originally Posted by Beaver10
TZ, You’d be good to go with a 270 as long as your wearing flaming orange from head to boot. Might I suggest dropping a little more horsepower in the engine by ramping up to a 270 WSM. You’ll find some decent BC bullets from Nosler LRAB’s. May give you some extra MPH. 😎


I’ll probably use an 06 or a .308. I just got a kick out of the fact I “needed” a 7mag.


Some guys think there's a huge difference, but really there isn't. With todays bullets and optics that reliable track at any sane hunting distance, you can take an elk with both cartridges equally as well. One doesn't really "out perfom" the other, when in the end you have a dead elk laying on the ground. This isn't the longrange hunting forum either, so essentially we are comparing two peas in a pod for most average elk hunting scenerios. To be honest, all of my elk could have been killed with a 6.5 creedmoor and that's what I plan on using this year...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by tzone
Originally Posted by Beaver10
TZ, You’d be good to go with a 270 as long as your wearing flaming orange from head to boot. Might I suggest dropping a little more horsepower in the engine by ramping up to a 270 WSM. You’ll find some decent BC bullets from Nosler LRAB’s. May give you some extra MPH. 😎


I’ll probably use an 06 or a .308. I just got a kick out of the fact I “needed” a 7mag.


Some guys think there's a huge difference, but really there isn't. With todays bullets and optics that reliable track at any sane hunting distance, you can take an elk with both cartridges equally as well. One doesn't really "out perfom" the other, when in the end you have a dead elk laying on the ground. This isn't the longrange hunting forum either, so essentially we are comparing two peas in a pod for most average elk hunting scenerios. To be honest, all of my elk could have been killed with a 6.5 creedmoor and that's what I plan on using this year...

Just because this forum isn’t exclusively about long-range hunting, that doesn’t mean that LR scenarios are not included in general modern hunting. Even at moderate distances, the 7Mag has a noticeable advantage in steering the bullet to vitals (necessary before you can have a dead elk on the ground). Wind can play havoc on bullets, even at 300 meters. With a 7Mag pushing a 180 ELD at 2960 fps, a 15 MPH full value wind pushes the bullet about 4.5” at 300 meters, using atmospherics common to my AO. So even if the wind is gusty between 0-15 MPH, switchy, and inconsistent, the bullet will still land within a 9” circle with a center hold, which is wrecked vitals. The .270 pushing the 150 ELD-X at 2900 fps drifts about 8” under the same conditions. Even the 6.5 Creedmoor with 147 ELD at 2700 fps drifts a meager 6.6”. With an equally fickle wind, your .270 bullet will land within a 16” circle, which could be a poor hit and a bit of a rodeo.

The contrast between the two bullets only gets more pronounced when you go beyond 300 meters.

Both the .270 and the 7Mag can be made to work fine, and the advantages of the 7Mag may only be apparent in certain scenarios, but to say that there is no advantage is incorrect. This isn’t purely academic- I’ve got extensive experience observing the external ballistics of all three bullets/cartridges, and there is a material and observable difference in how each is affected by the wind, even at modest ranges.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,853
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,853
The recoil advantage goes to the 270, which often trumps a small advantage in ballistics.

If comparing apples to apples, one should compare the 170 berger and the 180 eld.

Last edited by prairie_goat; 01/12/19.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
The recoil advantage goes to the 270, which often trumps a small advantage in ballistics.

If comparing apples to apples, one should compare the 170 berger and the 180 eld.

The difference in recoil is slight, IME, compared to the difference in external ballistics.

Choose any .277” bullet currently mass produced, and the result will be the same- the 7Mag increases the margin of error in ensuring POI is in the vitals.

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,723
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,723
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
The recoil advantage goes to the 270, which often trumps a small advantage in ballistics.

If comparing apples to apples, one should compare the 170 berger and the 180 eld.


Nah, that would be too easy and make it seem like the 270 win treads too much on the heels of the 7mm rem mag.... wink Wait for JeffO to pull out the ballistic gak, we all so greatly appreciate.. grin Some people might think others like the feeling of smoke being blown up their azz...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,468
B
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,468
If I was going to deal with the muzzle blast and recoil of a magnum case I would step up to the 300 Winchester or 300WSM.
270 will work just fine as well a gaggle of other cartridges.
I would concentrate on learning to locate elk. That will bare the most fruit.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,707
L
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
L
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,707
One of these is a 160 grain accubond shot out of a 7mm mashburn at 3200fps, one is a 168 grain LRAB shot out of a 280 Ackley at 2850fps, and one is a 140 grain berger shot out of a 6.5-06 at 2825fps. All three went through elk and were found just against the offside hide. All three were broadside shots. The 140 and 168 were within 25 yards of each other and the 160 grain was another 50 yards farther. All three elk stumbled 30 or so yards and fell over. Which bullet is which?


[Linked Image]

Last edited by laker; 01/12/19.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Anyone that thinks there’s a significant difference between the two inside 500 yards (where the bulk of hunting should happen) needs more experience shooting elk.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
T
tzone Offline OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745

M
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by tzone
Originally Posted by Beaver10
TZ, You’d be good to go with a 270 as long as your wearing flaming orange from head to boot. Might I suggest dropping a little more horsepower in the engine by ramping up to a 270 WSM. You’ll find some decent BC bullets from Nosler LRAB’s. May give you some extra MPH. 😎


I’ll probably use an 06 or a .308. I just got a kick out of the fact I “needed” a 7mag.


Some guys think there's a huge difference, but really there isn't. With todays bullets and optics that reliable track at any sane hunting distance, you can take an elk with both cartridges equally as well. One doesn't really "out perfom" the other, when in the end you have a dead elk laying on the ground. This isn't the longrange hunting forum either, so essentially we are comparing two peas in a pod for most average elk hunting scenerios. To be honest, all of my elk could have been killed with a 6.5 creedmoor and that's what I plan on using this year...

Just because this forum isn’t exclusively about long-range hunting, that doesn’t mean that LR scenarios are not included in general modern hunting. Even at moderate distances, the 7Mag has a noticeable advantage in steering the bullet to vitals (necessary before you can have a dead elk on the ground). Wind can play havoc on bullets, even at 300 meters. With a 7Mag pushing a 180 ELD at 2960 fps, a 15 MPH full value wind pushes the bullet about 4.5” at 300 meters, using atmospherics common to my AO. So even if the wind is gusty between 0-15 MPH, switchy, and inconsistent, the bullet will still land within a 9” circle with a center hold, which is wrecked vitals. The .270 pushing the 150 ELD-X at 2900 fps drifts about 8” under the same conditions. Even the 6.5 Creedmoor with 147 ELD at 2700 fps drifts a meager 6.6”. With an equally fickle wind, your .270 bullet will land within a 16” circle, which could be a poor hit and a bit of a rodeo.

The contrast between the two bullets only gets more pronounced when you go beyond 300 meters.

Both the .270 and the 7Mag can be made to work fine, and the advantages of the 7Mag may only be apparent in certain scenarios, but to say that there is no advantage is incorrect. This isn’t purely academic- I’ve got extensive experience observing the external ballistics of all three bullets/cartridges, and there is a material and observable difference in how each is affected by the wind, even at modest ranges.


Wow. Thanks for the write up.


Camp is where you make it.
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
W
WAM Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
Whoa! Based on all the pixie dust heaped on some cartridges, I should toss all my rifles in the truck and haul them to a shop for consignment and buy a 6.5 Creedmoor and a Cactus Jack Special .270 Winchester to cover all North American large game! Everything worth having is between 6.5 and 6.8 mm it seems. Happy Trails 😎


Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by Brad
Anyone that thinks there’s a significant difference between the two inside 500 yards (where the bulk of hunting should happen) needs more experience shooting elk.

Brad,

When it comes to terminal performance, I would agree with you. But anyone who thinks there isn’t an observable difference in external ballistics between the two, at least in certain circumstances found in the field, needs more experience shooting.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,853
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,853
There's a little more leeway in wind hold with the 7, but most hunters will never see the difference. For example, The 180/7 vs 170/270 will have around 2" difference in wind drift at 500 yards @ 10 mph, which is the difference in hold between a 10 mph wind vs a 12 mph wind. Either will be holding off vitals in those conditions, and I'm of the opinion that if I have to hold off vitals with my wind hold, it's time to get closer or re-position.

The thing that most hunters will be able to differentiate is the recoil - there's a 20%+ increase in recoil with the 7 mag. I've found that portable (say 8 lb or so) 7 Mags aren't much fun to shoot, whereas 270s in the same weight range are a bunch easier to shoot. I've also seen this manifested with a whole bunch of hunters. The 270 guys generally kill stuff without issue. A bunch of the 7 Mag shooters have trouble with the recoil, resulting in missed or wounded game.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Brad
Anyone that thinks there’s a significant difference between the two inside 500 yards (where the bulk of hunting should happen) needs more experience shooting elk.

Brad,

When it comes to terminal performance, I would agree with you. But anyone who thinks there isn’t an observable difference in external ballistics between the two, at least in certain circumstances found in the field, needs more experience shooting.


But again, whether terminal performance or external ballistics, the difference inside 500 yards between the two is meaningless for anyone that can shoot.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,654
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,654
I don't know. I use a 30/06. smile

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 5,458
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 5,458
"outperforms".
Now there is a word that is thrown around all the time in the shooting world, but often is not understood at all.

If "performance" only equals energy, or if it equals velocity, or if it equals ballistic co-efficient, I see no reason anyone, anywhere, would use anything but a 50 BMG or a 408 Cheytac or maybe a 416 Barrett.

But performance is 98% the man and 2% what he shoots--------- and that has been true for a very very long time.


So if we had a scale of 1 to 10, and a cartridge that was a 7 and one that was an 8, in energy, BC and velocity, the answer would be easy.

But if "8" holds less ammo, needs a longer barrel, weights more or kicks harder, and has a shorter bore life (so long term practice can be more costly,) and shoots more costly ammo, in view of the true measure of "performance" being the skills of the shooter over time, is the 8 "better" then the 7?

And if I say 7 is better and you say 8 is better, there is no way to make a definitive judgement between the 2 shooters opinions, because no one is in the place of God who can say from perfect knowledge of every single shot ever fired from both "7" and from "8" which shooter is correct.

We all voice our opinions only from 2 bases.
#1 is individual experience.

#2 is the experience we heard about (some of which may be true and some may not be, or may be only part of the story)

I have owned both and I have used both. I still own some 270s. I sold all my 7MM mags.
Why?
Because I could not see any difference at all in the way either shell killed game and I have a LOT of game behind me to make that judgement from.

The fact is that the 7MMs I had were rifles that I didn't love as much as the 270s I still have. And that is far more about the guns than the rounds they were chambered in.

My 7MM Mags have been a 1 Weatherby, 3 Remington's and 1 Ruger, all of which worked fine, and 2 of which were REALLY accurate (one Remington and one Ruger).

To be 100% fair I must admit that I have sold 5 270s in my life too.

But my 270s are a Winchester M70s, 2 Mausers, and a Winchester M95 Lever Action, all of which I like better then the Weatherby Mk5, the M700s and the Ruger 77 that I had all chambered in 7MM mags.(both Remington and Weatherby) As I said I could see absolutely NO difference at all in the way they killed deer, elk, antelope, bears caribou or moose if they both used good bullets. That statement includes all game as well as farm and ranch critters. (horses, cattle and sheep) that I have either shot with both or seen shot with both.

If I were to make myself a 7MM mag on a Mauser or get one in the Winchester M70s in 7MM Mag I am sure I could see no difference between the Mausers and the M70s I have in 270.

But I just like (for no good reason) the 5 round mags better then the 3 round mag. (I say "no good reason" because I often hunt with a Single Shot rifle and many times that rifle can be a flintlock, so obviously I don't put all that much weight on mag capacity for my hunting rifles)

I like long barrels on the 270s too, so I can't say from a standpoint of custom or semi-custom build that 270 is any handier then a 7MM Mag.

The 270 does kick less then the 7MM Mag, but I really like and enjoy my 300 H&H and also my 9.3s, and my 375H&H, so in reality the heavier recoil of the 7MM Mag is not significant to me either. it is to some, but they have to make their own decisions.

So this is a very simple question, but the answer is not as simple and should be judged on the basis of who is going to own the rifle, and is far more about shooters then it is about cartridges.

What I can say without any doubt is what I have said above. There in NO difference at all that I can see when used to kill game up to and including moose. I like the 175 Grain bullets I can get for the 7MMs, but I have used a lot of the 160 Gr Nosler Partitions in my 270s over the years and again I can't really see any difference in how they kill game .

The bottom line is this:
Get the one you like best. Don't let someone else do your decision making for you. The rifle needs to only please you!

Feel no fear that either will let you down if you simply use good bullets in both. If you use poor bullet you can't blame the shell. (I have learned that the hard way, over 50 years of experience)


Last edited by szihn; 01/14/19.
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,341
R
Campfire Regular
Online Content
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,341
I've always looked at the two in terms of use, carry weight and barrel length. The 270 Win stands out as a nice to carry 6 lbs rifle with 21 or 22 inch barrel giving great MV with that length and making a fine mountain carry rifle able to dispatch bull elk at good distance while maintaining needed ME. The 7mm RM could be reduced somewhat in weight to supply ability for same task in mountains, but would be heavier by a pound or more needing a 24-inch barrel minimum to make a real ballistic advantage over the 270 Win. The 7mm RM comes into its own when utilizing a 26-inch barrel for the likes of pronghorn and mule deer. A 140 grain BT or AB at 3,400+ fps is a nice advantage out in western Nebraska, Wyoming and New Mexico. The 7mm RM is as good as it gets when equipped with a 26-inch barrel for taking long shots with reduced holdover and doping. I have a 308 Win for the mountains and whitetail use and use the 7mm RM exclusively on pronghorn and mule deer in Wyoming and western Nebraska. For elk I typically use a 338 WM but like the 308 Win as well. With the advent of the 6.5mm craze, which is well deserved, the 270 Win and 308 Win are still legitimate contenders in the field and can certainly hold their own against the rest.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
There's a little more leeway in wind hold with the 7, but most hunters will never see the difference.


No argument here. I never said that the average hunter will be able to take advantage of the difference, but to say that there is no difference is just not correct.

Originally Posted by prairie_goat

For example, The 180/7 vs 170/270 will have around 2" difference in wind drift at 500 yards @ 10 mph, which is the difference in hold between a 10 mph wind vs a 12 mph wind. Either will be holding off vitals in those conditions, and I'm of the opinion that if I have to hold off vitals with my wind hold, it's time to get closer or re-position.


The difference is about 3" using 2850 fps for the .270 Win and 2950 fps for the 7 Mag (not red-lining either cartridge), but that's not really the important thing. Comparing wind drift in a simplistic 10mph full value wind is not typically the reality we encounter in the field. We often deal with wind that is constantly gusting, changing directions, etc. If the wind where you're hunting on a given day is gusting between 5-20 mph, suddenly the difference between the two bullets is 6" if you happen to break the trigger during a 20 mph gust. So while 3" in a simple 10 mph FV wind doesn't sound like much, it can be a big deal in the right circumstances. The biggest advantage most guys will see, is the ability to hold on vitals further out without having the bullet pushed off target by an errant wind change or by a wind call that isn't 100% correct. As an example, if we assume an elk's vital zone is 16" across, using the same simple 10 mph constant FV wind, you could hold center vitals and not have your bullet pushed outside of the vital zone by the wind, even if there were let-offs and gusts and direction changes, out to 465 meters with the 180 ELD versus 405 meters with the 170 EOL, assuming sea level atmospherics. So using your criteria of needing to sneak close enough to hold on vitals, you could stop sneaking 60 meters earlier with the 7RM. Again, I'm not saying that the average dude will see the difference, but the advantage is there in the right hands and situations.

Originally Posted by prairie_goat

The thing that most hunters will be able to differentiate is the recoil - there's a 20%+ increase in recoil with the 7 mag. I've found that portable (say 8 lb or so) 7 Mags aren't much fun to shoot, whereas 270s in the same weight range are a bunch easier to shoot. I've also seen this manifested with a whole bunch of hunters. The 270 guys generally kill stuff without issue. A bunch of the 7 Mag shooters have trouble with the recoil, resulting in missed or wounded game.

I'm a proponent of lower recoil promoting more practice, higher round counts, and greater familiarity with a load's trajectory, but when the recoil difference between two loads becomes minimal (the .270 with 170gr bullets recoils more than grandpa's 130gr load) and the ballistic advantage of one load over another is significant, there comes a point where the reduced recoil isn't yielding a net gain in making hits in varied field conditions. IME, if a guy has trouble making hits with a 7Mag, he will also struggle with a .270. If he has shot enough to become familiar with a .270's trajectory, he's usually conditioned enough to do quite well with a 7Mag. If we're concerned with maximizing the ballistic performance to recoil ratio, then the 6.5 Creedmoor with 147's at 2700 fps looks pretty good. It'll go to 435 meters before the same 10 mph wind pushes the bullet outside of the 16" vital zone.

Either way, my initial comment on the ballistic advantage of the 7Mag over the .270 wasn't about the average hunter, but simply the fact that the advantage exists. A good rifleman can take advantage of that advantage under certain circumstances wink

To quote Bryan Litz "Regardless of your level of skill in reading wind, choosing equipment with superior ballistics will improve your chances of success in long range shooting".

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Brad
Anyone that thinks there’s a significant difference between the two inside 500 yards (where the bulk of hunting should happen) needs more experience shooting elk.

Brad,

When it comes to terminal performance, I would agree with you. But anyone who thinks there isn’t an observable difference in external ballistics between the two, at least in certain circumstances found in the field, needs more experience shooting.


But again, whether terminal performance or external ballistics, the difference inside 500 yards between the two is meaningless for anyone that can shoot.


See above quote from Bryan Litz.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Less recoil trumps a couple inches of drift.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
The recoil advantage goes to the 270, which often trumps a small advantage in ballistics.



recoil advantage for .270 can vary, dependent on an individuals sensitivities, or perception of 'felt recoil'

and for those that elect.270 so they can have a lighter rifle are trading away or diminishing recoil advantage.

Some folks are not at all bothered by toting a heavier 7-mag, in fact they also prefer such for a steadier hold.


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,036
S
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,036
I wouldn't sell a .270 to buy a 7mag for elk. If I had to pick between the two for elk? 7mag.. Will poke a bigger hole at the very least.


Your Every Liberal vote promotes Socialism and is an
attack on the Second Amendment. You will suffer the consequences.

GOA,Idaho2AIAlliance,AmericanFirearmsAssociation,IdahoTrappersAssociation,FoundationForWildlifeManagement ID and MT.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Beaver10
TZ, You’d be good to go with a 270 as long as your wearing flaming orange from head to boot. ...


Colorado now allows fluorescent pink. Goes great with the .270 Win. wink


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263
T
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
T
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263
As much as I like the 7 RM I hate to admit that the difference between a 270 and 7 mag is not that much. I would still favor the 7 if given the choice but would not hesitate to hunt with a 270 at all. I have split the difference and used the 270 WSM also. Bullets are more important than caliber or cartridge.


"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Nothing wrong with a .270 Win for elk, although if using factory loads I'd probably opt for a 150g bullet.

Here is a comparison of the .270 Win/150g LRAB load I developed for Daughter #1's .270 Win (22" bbl) and a 7mm RM/ 68g LRAB using Nosler data for a 24" barrel. Calculations at 7000 feet altitude, MPBR zero for a 6" target (maximum 3" rise from LOS),

At 600 yards:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
254 yds = zero point
300 yds = MPBR
52.6" = drop
2234fps - velocity
1662fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil

7mm RM/168 LRAB @ 3047fps,
266 yds = zero point
314 yds = MPBR
45.6" = drop
2377fps - velocity
1882fpe = energy (corrected from original 2108fpe, thank you Starman for pointing out the error]
13.7" = drift
27.9 ft-lbs recoil


In other words, the .270 Win load reaches 600 yards with more velocity and energy than a .30-30 /170g load at 50 yards - which is to say way more than is needed to take an elk cleanly.

Compared to the 7mm RM load (which is WAY better tahn the ones I used for 20+ years), the .270 load has only 1.8:" more drift, Drop for the .270 is about 7" more, but that is easily corrected for.

Most importantly for Daughter #1, the .270 load does it with only 2 ft-lbs more than her .308 Win/130g TTSX/3045fps load and 10.2 ft-lbs (40.5%) less recoil than the 7mm RM.


Compared to the .270/150LRAB, the 7mm RM/160g Grand Slam load I used for 20+ years and has killed more elk for me than all my other rifles combined, is pathetic.


7mm RM/160 Grand Slam @ 2900fps,
247 yds = zero point
291 yds = MPBR
62.4" = drop
1909fps - velocity
1295fpe = energy
25.4" = drift
21.8 ft-lbs recoil


Have given some thought to switching the 7mm to a high B.C. bullet like the 150g LRAB (.546 G1) or ELD-X (.574 G1), but I have enough 140g and 160g hunting loads on the shelf to last my lifetime. The .270 Win/150LRAB outperforms them in terms of calculated ballistics but they work just fine.

If I was a non-handloader with a .270, I'd give the Hornady 145g ELD-X ammo a try and, if it was accurate,in my rifle, worry about finding elk rather than the adequacy of the load.






Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/14/19. Reason: corrected 2108fpe to 1882fpe

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,204
B
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
B
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,204
Just get a 280AI. Kicks like a 270, kills like a 7 Mag


Affordable Sportfishing Charters and Cruises out of Noank CT - https://www.rowdygirlcharters.com/
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,569
S
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,569
I'll take the 7 mm mag because I have no 270. Whoops that Rem 721 is a 270, I stand corrected. like many my safe is full of rifles capable of the task. Terrain might dictate what I take along with weather. My 1895 in 405 win in the dark timber or my Sako FN 300 H&H in a open park in NM. JMO


Never take life to seriously, after all ,no one gets out of it alive.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,142
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,142
tzone, if you do go with the .270, I'd suggest either the 150 hot cor or the 150 partition. The 150 hot cor straight up will knock an elk's dick in the dirt.

As I am sure you're aware, any decent 130 grain bullet would work fine but the 150s out of a .270 really seem to impress critters.



Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


At 600 yards:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
254 yds = zero point
300 yds = MPBR
52.6" = drop
2234fps - velocity
1662fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil

7mm RM/168 LRAB @ 3047fps,
266 yds = zero point
314 yds = MPBR
45.6" = drop
2377fps - velocity
2108fpe = energy
13.7" = drift
27.9 ft-lbs recoil


your 150 LRAB (.591 BC ) and 168 LRAB (.616 BC) velocity-energy figures for 600yd, seem out of whack.


after running those bullets through a few different ballistic calculators, I consistently get more like
2037/1382 and 2180/1773 , respectively.

7-mag also offers option of 175 LRAB(.648 BC)

2800mv, delivers 2017/1581 @600yd.... 20.60 ft/lb recoil (8 lb rifle)


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
Sweet Jesus

U got a .308 and a 30 06.

Get you some camping stuff, rangefinder, optics, Sailor Jerry, etc.

Don't monkey around with the gayness of suboptimal circumference ordaninants!

Just my opinion!


"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills












Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,719
W
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,719
When I see this argument, I think of Les Bowman.. A long time elk guide in northern Wy.. Les was also a .270fan.. But he urged Mike Walker of Remington to bring out the 7mm RM so he must have seen some value to the round..


Molon Labe
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Nothing wrong with a .270 Win for elk, although if using factory loads I'd probably opt for a 150g bullet.

Here is a comparison of the .270 Win/150g LRAB load I developed for Daughter #1's .270 Win (22" bbl) and a 7mm RM/ 68g LRAB using Nosler data for a 24" barrel. Calculations at 7000 feet altitude, MPBR zero for a 6" target (maximum 3" rise from LOS),

At 600 yards:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
254 yds = zero point
300 yds = MPBR
52.6" = drop
2234fps - velocity
1662fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil

7mm RM/168 LRAB @ 3047fps,
266 yds = zero point
314 yds = MPBR
45.6" = drop
2377fps - velocity
2108fpe = energy
13.7" = drift
27.9 ft-lbs recoil

Shouldn’t you compare apples to apples: 270 150g vs. 7mm 150g?

At 600 yards:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
254 yds = zero point
300 yds = MPBR
52.6" = drop
2234fps - velocity
1662fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil

7mm RM/150 LRAB @ 3248fps,
280 yds = zero point
330ish yds = MPBR
39.9" = drop
2457fps - velocity
2010fpe = energy
14.8" = drift
XX.X ft-lbs recoil (who cares what the recoil is? You don’t feel it in hunting situations when you pull the trigger, especially with winter hunting cloths on for additional padding)

I know petite teenage girls who shoot their father’s 7mags. It is sad to see grown men cry on this site about recoil.


"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
No argument there !

If you need to justify a firearm purchase to slay an wapiti, and you owned a 3006.

A 7 mag might buy you some support...........

A 270. Which is a necked down 3003 most likely would be hard work to convinced he non LBG community as needed.


"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills












Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
W
WAM Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
Originally Posted by Brad
Less recoil trumps a couple inches of drift.


And it makes your mangina hurt less..... LOL!


Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
The difference is about 3" using 2850 fps for the .270 Win and 2950 fps for the 7 Mag (not red-lining either cartridge), but that's not really the important thing. Comparing wind drift in a simplistic 10mph full value wind is not typically the reality we encounter in the field. We often deal with wind that is constantly gusting, changing directions, etc. If the wind where you're hunting on a given day is gusting between 5-20 mph, suddenly the difference between the two bullets is 6" if you happen to break the trigger during a 20 mph gust. So while 3" in a simple 10 mph FV wind doesn't sound like much, it can be a big deal in the right circumstances. The biggest advantage most guys will see, is the ability to hold on vitals further out without having the bullet pushed off target by an errant wind change or by a wind call that isn't 100% correct. As an example, if we assume an elk's vital zone is 16" across, using the same simple 10 mph constant FV wind, you could hold center vitals and not have your bullet pushed outside of the vital zone by the wind, even if there were let-offs and gusts and direction changes, out to 465 meters with the 180 ELD versus 405 meters with the 170 EOL, assuming sea level atmospherics. So using your criteria of needing to sneak close enough to hold on vitals, you could stop sneaking 60 meters earlier with the 7RM. Again, I'm not saying that the average dude will see the difference, but the advantage is there in the right hands and situations.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Truth ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As they say in poker, here's the nuts.

And you can kick that 20 mph up to 40-60, 70 mph when it starts blowing snow sideways at the higher elevations.

Great post Jordan.


"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
At 600 yards:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
254 yds = zero point
300 yds = MPBR
52.6" = drop
2234fps - velocity
1662fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil

7mm RM/168 LRAB @ 3047fps,
266 yds = zero point
314 yds = MPBR
45.6" = drop
2377fps - velocity
2108fpe = energy
13.7" = drift
27.9 ft-lbs recoil

your 150 LRAB (.591 BC ) and 168 LRAB (.616 BC) velocity-energy figures for 600yd, seem out of whack.

after running those bullets through a few different ballistic calculators, I consistently get more like
2037/1382 and 2180/1773 , respectively.

7-mag also offers option of 175 LRAB(.648 BC)

2800mv, delivers 2017/1581 @600yd.... 20.60 ft/lb recoil (8 lb rifle)


Starman -

I did muff the energy for the 168g LRAB. Not sure where I got 2108fpe but the correct number per my calculator is 1882fpe.

I'm using 7000 feet in altitude since we hunt elk from about 6200 to 10,000 feet.

So the corrected numbers should be thus:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
254 yds = zero point
300 yds = MPBR
52.6" = drop
2234fps - velocity
1662fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil

7mm RM/168 LRAB @ 3047fps,
266 yds = zero point
314 yds = MPBR
45.6" = drop
2377fps - velocity
1882fpe = energy [corrected]
13.7" = drift
27.9 ft-lbs recoil


The 175 LRAB likely requires a much faster twist than my 9.5 7mm RM. A note form Hornady a couple days ago recommended 10 for their 150g ELD-X, 9.5 for the 162g and 8.5 for the 175g.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
When I see this argument, I think of Les Bowman.. A long time elk guide in northern Wy.. Les was also a .270fan.. But he urged Mike Walker of Remington to bring out the 7mm RM so he must have seen some value to the round..


Sorry, this makes no sense.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Originally Posted by WAM
Originally Posted by Brad
Less recoil trumps a couple inches of drift.


And it makes your mangina hurt less..... LOL!


Nope, just my shoulder.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Here is where the 7 mag and other flat shooters have the advantage, being able to kill a trophy that comes out on the opposing side of the valley floor or on the opposing side of a large park, when you have only a few minutes of daylight left, and don’t have the time to close the gap.

And when they come out across a valley from you on the valley floor, with nothing but valley floor separating the two of you, no matter how much daylight is left, sometimes you can close the gap, and sometimes not depending on the terrain.

Lastly, you never know where your future hunting will be as far as being invited, getting a group together, etc, so why limit yourself in a future unknown hunting terrain with a cartridge.


"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Here is where the 7 mag and other flat shooters have the advantage, being able to kill a trophy that comes out on the opposing side of the valley floor or on the opposing side of a large park, when you have only a few minutes of daylight left, and don’t have the time to close the gap.

And when they come out across a valley from you on the valley floor, with nothing but valley floor separating the two of you, no matter how much daylight is left, sometimes you can close the gap, and sometimes not depending on the terrain.

Lastly, you never know where your future hunting will be as far as being invited, getting a group together, etc, so why limit yourself in a future unknown hunting terrain with a cartridge.


Been reading Outdoor Life on the chitter again?


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Here is where the 7 mag and other flat shooters have the advantage, being able to kill a trophy that comes out on the opposing side of the valley floor or on the opposing side of a large park, when you have only a few minutes of daylight left, and don’t have the time to close the gap.

And when they come out across a valley from you on the valley floor, with nothing but valley floor separating the two of you, no matter how much daylight is left, sometimes you can close the gap, and sometimes not depending on the terrain.

Lastly, you never know where your future hunting will be as far as being invited, getting a group together, etc, so why limit yourself in a future unknown hunting terrain with a cartridge.


Been reading Outdoor Life on the chitter again?

Atleast I’m reading something while on the throne versus you having video sex with other males or taking and texting male anatomy pictures to some of your girlieman friends on here.

Last edited by ElkSlayer91; 01/15/19.

"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Here is where the 7 mag and other flat shooters have the advantage, being able to kill a trophy that comes out on the opposing side of the valley floor or on the opposing side of a large park, when you have only a few minutes of daylight left, and don’t have the time to close the gap.

And when they come out across a valley from you on the valley floor, with nothing but valley floor separating the two of you, no matter how much daylight is left, sometimes you can close the gap, and sometimes not depending on the terrain.

Lastly, you never know where your future hunting will be as far as being invited, getting a group together, etc, so why limit yourself in a future unknown hunting terrain with a cartridge.


Been reading Outdoor Life on the chitter again?

Atleast I’m reading something while on the thrown versus you having video sex with other males or taking and texting male anatomy pictures to some of your girlieman friends on here.


Wow. Quite the fantasy life you have.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,734
B
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,734
Originally Posted by tzone
A buddy and I were having a few cold ones after work today. We got to talkin about hunting elk in a few years as he has a contact in CO and asked if I’d be interested. Neither on of us had ever shot an elk. I was telling him about the new M700 I was looking at and said I was thinking about a .270 since it’s been so long since I’ve had one. He said I “need” a mag if we head west.

Now I know damn well I don’t need a mag and was showing him some ballistics that pretty much meant nothing since he has a 7mag for deer that’s what he’d use for elk too.

I have plenty of others I could use, but not a .270 or 7mag.

For those of you that have used them on elk, which one?


No, you don't need a "mag". You need a rifle you have faith in, you shoot well and has a trusted sighting system. I've tagged out on elk from a 6.5CM to a 338W and the lesson learned is: to put a "good bullet" in the right place at a distance you feel confident in. I have to say that a lot of elk came home after facing the wrath of blue box ammo from a .270 Win.. Hint................


My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Here is where the 7 mag and other flat shooters have the advantage, being able to kill a trophy that comes out on the opposing side of the valley floor or on the opposing side of a large park, when you have only a few minutes of daylight left, and don’t have the time to close the gap.

And when they come out across a valley from you on the valley floor, with nothing but valley floor separating the two of you, no matter how much daylight is left, sometimes you can close the gap, and sometimes not depending on the terrain.

Lastly, you never know where your future hunting will be as far as being invited, getting a group together, etc, so why limit yourself in a future unknown hunting terrain with a cartridge.


Been reading Outdoor Life on the chitter again?

Atleast I’m reading something while on the throne versus you having video sex with other males or taking and texting male anatomy pictures to some of your girlieman friends on here.


Wow. Quite the fantasy life you have.

Glad to see you don't deny it.

Last edited by ElkSlayer91; 01/15/19.

"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,853
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,853
Jordan,
I used a 10 mph wind to compare the 270 and 7 mag because that's the standard for wind drift comparison. Well aware that winds are variable in the real world. You're right about the 6.5 Creedmoor with sleek bullets....the round is a great "why not both" answer to wanting good performance in the wind with modest recoil.

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,819
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,819
ElkSlayer

One sits on a throne, and could get thrown off a horse... cool

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Nothing wrong with a .270 Win for elk, although if using factory loads I'd probably opt for a 150g bullet.

Here is a comparison of the .270 Win/150g LRAB load I developed for Daughter #1's .270 Win (22" bbl) and a 7mm RM/ 68g LRAB using Nosler data for a 24" barrel. Calculations at 7000 feet altitude, MPBR zero for a 6" target (maximum 3" rise from LOS),

At 600 yards:
...
Have given some thought to switching the 7mm to a high B.C. bullet like the 150g LRAB (.546 G1) or ELD-X (.574 G1), but I have enough 140g and 160g hunting loads on the shelf to last my lifetime. The .270 Win/150LRAB outperforms them in terms of calculated ballistics but they work just fine
....

Shouldn’t you compare apples to apples: 270 150g vs. 7mm 150g?

At 600 yards:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
254 yds = zero point
300 yds = MPBR
52.6" = drop
2234fps - velocity
1662fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil

7mm RM/150 LRAB @ 3248fps,
280 yds = zero point
330ish yds = MPBR
39.9" = drop
2457fps - velocity
2010fpe = energy
14.8" = drift
XX.X ft-lbs recoil (who cares what the recoil is? You don’t feel it in hunting situations when you pull the trigger, especially with winter hunting cloths on for additional padding)

I know petite teenage girls who shoot their father’s 7mags. It is sad to see grown men cry on this site about recoil.


I like the 150g LRAB even better than the 168g for the 7mm RM. I chose the 168 for comparison because I shot 160g bullets for many (20+) years and still have a good stash of them. (Along with the 140's I've been shooting more recently.) As I mentioned in my original post, I've considered switching to the 150g LRAB or ELD-X.

Who cares about recoil? I do. And my daughters do. We see no reason to put up with more recoil than necessary to reliably achieve the goal, which is why the big boomers rarely go to the range. I've hit clay pigeons on the 600-yard berm using my .338WM, .300WM, a .30-06, 6.5-06AI and .257 Roberts. And maybe my .243. The light kickers are definitely more fun to shoot and easier to shoot accurately. Especially so for my daughters.

The .270 load is for Daughter #1, who is more sensitive to recoil than the other two. She will do far more shooting at the range than in the field. In comparing the 150g LRAB for the .270 and 7mm RM, using my 2910fps load for the .270 and Nosler's 3248fps for the 7mm RM, the 7mm RM does have a 12.7" advantage in drop but the advantage in drift, which is much more difficult to adjust for, is only 0.7" using your 14.8" figure for the 7mm RM. (My calculator says 14.5", for a 1.0" difference.) Both cartridges deliver more than enough velocity and energy at 600 yards to kill elk cleanly. The important difference for Daughter #1 is the difference in recoil - a calculated 17.7 ft-lbs for her .270 vs. 23.4 ft-lbs for the 7mm RM - a 32% increase in recoil with no practical increase in killing capability. (You can only kill them dead - there is no 'deader'.) I don't have a .270 and the 150g for my 7mm RM is tempting.

Developing my "Rhino Blaster" loads (460g hardcast @ 1812fps) for my Marlin .45-70 was done in a tee-shirt with the Marlin's original hard buttplate. That's a calculated 51.4 foot-lbs at a snappy 21.7fps, repeated about 30 times in one bench session. No crying, but I'm not dumb enough to do it that way again.

As far as my girls and recoil, Daughter #2 doesn't hunt and probably hasn't shot anything larger than my 6.5-06AI, which she prefers. Daughter #3 has shot everything including the .45-70 with the aforementioned "Rhino Blaster" loads. She normally shoots my .257 Roberts. Daughter #1 has shot a variety of my rifles, normally shoots her .308 Win and killed her buck last year with her hubby's .300WSM. She thought the .50 BMG she shot at the range was a lot of fun, but that was one shot, not a range session checking zero, drops out to 600 and practice from various positions. No crying from any of them, just practical, well-reasoned choices for their preferences.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
...

Last edited by ElkSlayer91; 01/15/19.

"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,819
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,819
Wow. Just funnin you a little. Chill. Please forgive. Yer taking this stuff way too serious. Auto correct trips us all up at times. A

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Nothing wrong with a .270 Win for elk, although if using factory loads I'd probably opt for a 150g bullet.

Here is a comparison of the .270 Win/150g LRAB load I developed for Daughter #1's .270 Win (22" bbl) and a 7mm RM/ 68g LRAB using Nosler data for a 24" barrel. Calculations at 7000 feet altitude, MPBR zero for a 6" target (maximum 3" rise from LOS),

At 600 yards:
...
Have given some thought to switching the 7mm to a high B.C. bullet like the 150g LRAB (.546 G1) or ELD-X (.574 G1), but I have enough 140g and 160g hunting loads on the shelf to last my lifetime. The .270 Win/150LRAB outperforms them in terms of calculated ballistics but they work just fine
....

Shouldn’t you compare apples to apples: 270 150g vs. 7mm 150g?

At 600 yards:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
254 yds = zero point
300 yds = MPBR
52.6" = drop
2234fps - velocity
1662fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil

7mm RM/150 LRAB @ 3248fps,
280 yds = zero point
330ish yds = MPBR
39.9" = drop
2457fps - velocity
2010fpe = energy
14.8" = drift
XX.X ft-lbs recoil (who cares what the recoil is? You don’t feel it in hunting situations when you pull the trigger, especially with winter hunting cloths on for additional padding)

I know petite teenage girls who shoot their father’s 7mags. It is sad to see grown men cry on this site about recoil.


I like the 150g LRAB even better than the 168g for the 7mm RM. I chose the 168 for comparison because I shot 160g bullets for many (20+) years and still have a good stash of them. (Along with the 140's I've been shooting more recently.) As I mentioned in my original post, I've considered switching to the 150g LRAB or ELD-X.

Who cares about recoil? I do. And my daughters do. We see no reason to put up with more recoil than necessary to reliably achieve the goal, which is why the big boomers rarely go to the range. I've hit clay pigeons on the 600-yard berm using my .338WM, .300WM, a .30-06, 6.5-06AI and .257 Roberts. And maybe my .243. The light kickers are definitely more fun to shoot and easier to shoot accurately. Especially so for my daughters.

The .270 load is for Daughter #1, who is more sensitive to recoil than the other two. She will do far more shooting at the range than in the field. In comparing the 150g LRAB for the .270 and 7mm RM, using my 2910fps load for the .270 and Nosler's 3248fps for the 7mm RM, the 7mm RM does have a 12.7" advantage in drop but the advantage in drift, which is much more difficult to adjust for, is only 0.7" using your 14.8" figure for the 7mm RM. (My calculator says 14.5", for a 1.0" difference.) Both cartridges deliver more than enough velocity and energy at 600 yards to kill elk cleanly. The important difference for Daughter #1 is the difference in recoil - a calculated 17.7 ft-lbs for her .270 vs. 23.4 ft-lbs for the 7mm RM - a 32% increase in recoil with no practical increase in killing capability. (You can only kill them dead - there is no 'deader'.) I don't have a .270 and the 150g for my 7mm RM is tempting.

Developing my "Rhino Blaster" loads (460g hardcast @ 1812fps) for my Marlin .45-70 was done in a tee-shirt with the Marlin's original hard buttplate. That's a calculated 51.4 foot-lbs at a snappy 21.7fps, repeated about 30 times in one bench session. No crying, but I'm not dumb enough to do it that way again.

As far as my girls and recoil, Daughter #2 doesn't hunt and probably hasn't shot anything larger than my 6.5-06AI, which she prefers. Daughter #3 has shot everything including the .45-70 with the aforementioned "Rhino Blaster" loads. She normally shoots my .257 Roberts. Daughter #1 has shot a variety of my rifles, normally shoots her .308 Win and killed her buck last year with her hubby's .300WSM. She thought the .50 BMG she shot at the range was a lot of fun, but that was one shot, not a range session checking zero, drops out to 600 and practice from various positions. No crying from any of them, just practical, well-reasoned choices for their preferences.



I appreciate your long post. The thread was about hunting, not a lengthy range session. I did see your reference to 150 LRAB, but there was no ballistics posted for comparison sake.

I fully understand and agree with your position on recoil for anyone, long shooting sessions, versus hunting: 1-2 shot, where a person enjoys rather than hate.

I can also understand how recoil would play into a choice on a man having Uncle arthritis or an injury. My “who cares about recoil” reference is for a fit man with a thick hunting jacket who will only pull the trigger 1-2 times when hunting, hopefully.

I’d shoot your 140’s and 160’s up you have loaded, rather than switch to building up a load for the 150’s unless you just want something to do.

I hope you and your family continue to enjoy your shooting, and hunting.


"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Here is where the 7 mag and other flat shooters have the advantage, being able to kill a trophy that comes out on the opposing side of the valley floor or on the opposing side of a large park, when you have only a few minutes of daylight left, and don’t have the time to close the gap.

And when they come out across a valley from you on the valley floor, with nothing but valley floor separating the two of you, no matter how much daylight is left, sometimes you can close the gap, and sometimes not depending on the terrain.

Lastly, you never know where your future hunting will be as far as being invited, getting a group together, etc, so why limit yourself in a future unknown hunting terrain with a cartridge.


A few comments...

1. The .270 Win load I developed for Daughter #1 beats the snot out of the 7mm RM load I used for 20+ years, which was very effective for killing elk. It isn't the headstamp that counts but the performance of individual loads.

2. Most hunters are in no way prepared for shots much past 300 yards, regardless of the terrain or the cartridge they are using.

3. A hunter is not limiting themselves if they are not prepared to shoot past the capability of the cartridge they are using. Given the ability of commonly used cartridges and average hunters, most are not are limiting themselves regardless of their cartridge choice.

Case in point, we spotted elk at 1100 yards this year. Neither Daughter #1 or her hubby had ever taken an elk and none of use were prepared for a shot that long. We closed to 476 yards, at an altitude (~8500 feet) and wind conditions (essentially none) where Daughter's .308 Win/130g TTSX @ 3045fps MV would have been adequate. While would have been quite happy to take the shot, Daughter #1 was not comfortable shooting at that range. By the time we closed to her comfort range the elk were gone.

Granted, I used this event as an excuse to get her a .270 Win and develop a 150g LRAB load that delivers elk-killing velocity and energy (2000fps and 1500fpe is my rule of thumb) to 700 yards. In future situations, neither a 7mm RM with a 150g LRAB or a .300 WM / 190g LRAB would offer any advantage, although they would extend the 2000fps/1500fpe range to 850 yards and over 1000 yards respectively. The limiting factor will be our level of preparedness, which is in large part determined by a) the longest range at my local club - 600 yards, b) our choice of scopes and c) time spent practicing.

There is one other thing to consider - recoil. The .270 Win/150g LRAB load I developed for my daughter has a calculated recoil of 17.7 ft-lbs. The 7mm RM/150g LRAB has a calculated recoil of 23.4 ft-lbs and the .300 WM/190g LRAB recoils at 36.8 ft-lbs. Although the .270 load will drop about 8" more than the others, the difference in drift is only 2.5". I'll take the 8" and 2.5", you can have the recoil. smile





Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/14/19.

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Beaver10
TZ, You’d be good to go with a 270 as long as your wearing flaming flame retardant orange from head to boot. Might I suggest dropping a little more horsepower in the engine by ramping up to a 270 WSM. You’ll find some decent BC bullets from Nosler LRAB’s. May give you some extra MPH. 😎



laugh


Ed

A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.

The worst slaves are those that put the chains on themselves.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91

I appreciate your long post. The thread was about hunting, not a lengthy range session. I did see your reference to 150 LRAB, but there was no ballistics posted for comparison sake.

I fully understand and agree with your position on recoil for anyone, long shooting sessions, versus hunting: 1-2 shot, where a person enjoys rather than hate.

I can also understand how recoil would play into a choice on a man having Uncle arthritis or an injury. My “who cares about recoil” reference is for a fit man with a thick hunting jacket who will only pull the trigger 1-2 times when hunting, hopefully.

I’d shoot your 140’s and 160’s up you have loaded, rather than switch to building up a load for the 150’s unless you just want something to do.

I hope you and your family continue to enjoy your shooting, and hunting.



Thanks.. I hope you and yours do the same.

A hunter that doesn't spend time at the range cannot be well prepared for the long shots. Heck, many hunters I've seen are not well-prepared regardless. smile


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
Here is where the 7 mag and other flat shooters have the advantage, being able to kill a trophy that comes out on the opposing side of the valley floor or on the opposing side of a large park, when you have only a few minutes of daylight left, and don’t have the time to close the gap.

And when they come out across a valley from you on the valley floor, with nothing but valley floor separating the two of you, no matter how much daylight is left, sometimes you can close the gap, and sometimes not depending on the terrain.

Lastly, you never know where your future hunting will be as far as being invited, getting a group together, etc, so why limit yourself in a future unknown hunting terrain with a cartridge.


A few comments...

1. The .270 Win load I developed for Daughter #1 beats the snot out of the 7mm RM load I used for 20+ years, which was very effective for killing elk. It isn't the headstamp that counts but the performance of individual loads.

2. Most hunters are in no way prepared for shots much past 300 yards, regardless of the terrain or the cartridge they are using.

3. A hunter is not limiting themselves if they are not prepared to shoot past the capability of the cartridge they are using. Given the ability of commonly used cartridges and average hunters, most are not are limiting themselves regardless of their cartridge choice.

Case in point, we spotted elk at 1100 yards this year. Neither Daughter #1 or her hubby had ever taken an elk and none of use were prepared for a shot that long. We closed to 476 yards, at an altitude (~8500 feet) and wind conditions (essentially none) where Daughter's .308 Win/130g TTSX @ 3045fps MV would have been adequate. While would have been quite happy to take the shot, Daughter #1 was not comfortable shooting at that range. By the time we closed to her comfort range the elk were gone.

Granted, I used this event as an excuse to get her a .270 Win and develop a 150g LRAB load that delivers elk-killing velocity and energy (2000fps and 1500fpe is my rule of thumb) to 700 yards. In future situations, neither a 7mm RM with a 150g LRAB or a .300 WM / 190g LRAB would offer any advantage, although they would extend the 2000fps/1500fpe range to 850 yards and over 1000 yards respectively. The limiting factor will be our level of preparedness, which is in large part determined by a) the longest range at my local club - 600 yards, b) our choice of scopes and c) time spent practicing.

There is one other thing to consider - recoil. The .270 Win/150g LRAB load I developed for my daughter has a calculated recoil of 17.7 ft-lbs. The 7mm RM/150g LRAB has a calculated recoil of 23.4 ft-lbs and the .300 WM/190g LRAB recoils at 36.8 ft-lbs. Although the .270 load will drop about 8" more than the others, the difference in drift is only 2.5". I'll take the 8" and 2.5", you can have the recoil. smile





Good times afield chasing Elk with family makes for great stories the grandchildren will enjoy hearing, even when the Elk get away.

Have fun practicing at 600 yds to get more comfortable. Shooting a boomstick is fun.


"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91

I appreciate your long post. The thread was about hunting, not a lengthy range session. I did see your reference to 150 LRAB, but there was no ballistics posted for comparison sake.

I fully understand and agree with your position on recoil for anyone, long shooting sessions, versus hunting: 1-2 shot, where a person enjoys rather than hate.

I can also understand how recoil would play into a choice on a man having Uncle arthritis or an injury. My “who cares about recoil” reference is for a fit man with a thick hunting jacket who will only pull the trigger 1-2 times when hunting, hopefully.

I’d shoot your 140’s and 160’s up you have loaded, rather than switch to building up a load for the 150’s unless you just want something to do.

I hope you and your family continue to enjoy your shooting, and hunting.



Thanks.. I hope you and yours do the same.

A hunter that doesn't spend time at the range cannot be well prepared for the long shots. Heck, many hunters I've seen are not well-prepared regardless. smile


Just when they've mastered Buck Fever, they have to start from scratch again to now handle Elk Fever...no matter how prepared they are.


"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Jesus Christ, it turns into wind, blah blah blah..... take your 270 elk HUNTING for fuucks sake..... my god


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Oh and the nemesis, the almighty "recoil", that everyone feels while killing game.... Haha


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
W
WAM Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
Only .270 that holds a candle to a 7mm Weatherby is a .270 Weatherby Magnum. Get over it.


Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
E
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
E
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by southtexas
Wow. Just funnin you a little. Chill. Please forgive. Yer taking this stuff way too serious. Auto correct trips us all up at times. A

I saw what you were referencing on the "throne", where I used the wrong word from being tired and on edge, from being screwed with by Brad.

I deleted it.

I’m truly sorry for snapping at you. Please accept my sincere apology.


Last edited by ElkSlayer91; 01/15/19.

"He is far from Stupid"

”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence


– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)



Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,734
B
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,734
Now that tzone has received a "wealth" of info, I trust he already has what he needs. Rather he may evaluate his equipment for a western hunt and upgrade one or two items. For example, does he have proper footwear for terrain he may not be familiar with? Is his daypack suitable for daily use with adequate
volume for needed gear? This may be an opportunity to consider a higher grade of binocular. Or do you need an upgraded sleeping bag? Money spent here may be far more appropriate than another rifle.

Last edited by bigwhoop; 01/15/19.

My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 481
D
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
D
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 481
Originally Posted by ElkSlayer91
[quote=Jordan Smith]
As they say in poker, here's the nuts.

And you can kick that 20 mph up to 40-60, 70 mph when it starts blowing snow sideways at the higher elevations.

Great post Jordan.


So when elk hunting, one needs to take into account 70mph winds when selecting a rifle, load, and shooting practice. I will make sure I schedule range time during our next hurricane.

Honestly, I have never shot an elk, but many on this board make it out to be a lot harder than it really is.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
T
tzone Offline OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
Originally Posted by Angus1895
Sweet Jesus

U got a .308 and a 30 06.

Get you some camping stuff, rangefinder, optics, Sailor Jerry, etc.

Don't monkey around with the gayness of suboptimal circumference ordaninants!

Just my opinion!


Sure I do. Doesn't everyone?


Camp is where you make it.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,987
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,987
Originally Posted by CarolinaHunter


Honestly, I have never shot an elk, but many on this board make it out to be a lot harder than it really is.



Killing elk ain’t hard.

It’s finding them that’s hard.






P


Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.

~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~

Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
Originally Posted by CarolinaHunter


Honestly, I have never shot an elk, but many on this board make it out to be a lot harder than it really is.



Killing elk ain’t hard.

It’s finding them that’s hard.






P



There Ya go right there!!!


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,987
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,987
I feel qualified to make the statement since I am a recognized expert at not finding elk.





P


Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.

~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~

Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,697
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,697
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
I feel qualified to make the statement since I am a recognized expert at not finding elk.

LOL. That's a quotable quote right there and hits pretty close to home.

Although I don't quite have that problem. I think every elk hunting season I've eventually found elk (unless my memory is bad). However, I have often not found the correct sex of elk that matched my tag more times than I care to count.

I have had cow elk less than 15 yards broadside with a spike bull tag in my pocket. I've been less than 100 yards from bachelor herds of beautiful bulls in multiple seasons with a cow tag in my pocket. I've been within 75 yards of a huge herd bull and all his cows with a spike bull tag in my pocket. I've gone home empty handed far more than I have with meat in the freezer.

But I would agree that if you are hunting with a suitable bullet, finding the right elk is a lot harder than killing them.


“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,303
E
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,303
Originally Posted by tzone
A buddy and I were having a few cold ones after work today. We got to talkin about hunting elk in a few years as he has a contact in CO and asked if I’d be interested. Neither on of us had ever shot an elk. I was telling him about the new M700 I was looking at and said I was thinking about a .270 since it’s been so long since I’ve had one. He said I “need” a mag if we head west.

Now I know damn well I don’t need a mag and was showing him some ballistics that pretty much meant nothing since he has a 7mag for deer that’s what he’d use for elk too.

I have plenty of others I could use, but not a .270 or 7mag.

For those of you that have used them on elk, which one?

Buy the .270 and load up with Nosler Partitions ( your choice in bullet weight) and go kill an elk.

Elk don't read ballistic tables or cartridge head stamps.


Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association

Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell

Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard

Ken
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


Starman -

I did muff the energy for the 168g LRAB. Not sure where I got 2108fpe but the correct number per my calculator is 1882fpe.

I'm using 7000 feet in altitude since we hunt elk from about 6200 to 10,000 feet.



well I ran the numbers again at your specified 7000ft alt.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=c320f2e4

result was:
150 LRAB @600yd 2224/1647
168 LRAB @600yd 2367/2090

175 LRAB 2800mv @600yd 2184/1854 (7000ft alt.)
(posted for folks who have faster twist than a factory 7mag)


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


The 175 LRAB likely requires a much faster twist than my 9.5 7mm RM. A note form Hornady a couple days ago recommended
10 for their 150g ELD-X, 9.5 for the 162g and 8.5 for the 175g.


Nosler use 9.0" twist for their test rifle and 175 LRAB.
Barnes recommend minimum 8.0" for their mono-metal 175



-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

Who cares about recoil? I do. And my daughters do. We see no reason to put up with more recoil than necessary..


Didn't you say you spent $500 on a lightweight mc.Edge stock?

$500 splurge to increase that dreaded bane of a thing called recoil...WTF?

that kind of money can get a person a new barrel for 7Mag that will handle 175 LRABs ... grin
or put it toward a factory rifle 280 A.I. 9.0 "twist and one is on their way for using 175..


Originally Posted by Judman
Oh and the nemesis, the almighty "recoil", that everyone feels while killing game.... Haha


I recall my 1980s M70 featherweight, Leup. 2.5-8x, steel rings, 7-3/4 lb empty.
then the MkV .270 Wby ,Brown Prec. stock , same scope and rings, 8-1/4 lb empty

The decision was easy, weight and recoil penalty didn't seem much, so the FW was effectively out of a job.
magazine capacity?... I usually don't put anymore than one-Up -- two-down in any medium bore rifle.
Ive even hunted with one up the spout, and only one or nothing in the stack.

... 6- 3/4 lb MkV ultra-LW was not available back then, otherwise I would have got one, topping out at
the same weight as M70 fw.


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Starman
well I ran the numbers again at your specified 7000ft alt.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=c320f2e4

result was:
150 LRAB @600yd 2224/1647
168 LRAB @600yd 2367/2090

175 LRAB 2800mv @600yd 2184/1854 (7000ft alt.)
(posted for folks who have faster twist than a factory 7mag)


Nosler use 9.0" twist for their test rifle and 175 LRAB.
Barnes recommend minimum 8.0" for their mono-metal 175


What B.C. values are you using? The Nosler web site has corrected values of .546 and .616 respectively for the 150g and 168g LRAB. I used the corrected values.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

Who cares about recoil? I do. And my daughters do. We see no reason to put up with more recoil than necessary..


Didn't you say you spent $500 on a lightweight mc.Edge stock?


In a word, "No."

Quote
$500 splurge to increase that dreaded bane of a thing called recoil...WTF?

that kind of money can get a person a new barrel for 7Mag that will handle 175 LRABs ... grin
or put it toward a factory rifle 280 A.I. 9.0 "twist and one is on their way for using 175..


Given that I've never spent more than $125 for a stock, your question is irrelevant. And the 175g LRAB won't provide me with any useful advantage over the 150g LRAB in my 7mm RM, so no need to buy a new rifle or barrel to use it.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

What B.C. values are you using?


The B.C. values I indicated when I first responded to your .270win 150 LRAB vs 7 -mag 168 LRAB ballistic comparison....
eg;
[quoteStarman=]
your 150 LRAB (.591 BC ) and 168 LRAB (.616 BC) velocity-energy figures for 600yd, seem out of whack.
[quote]

Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
The Nosler web site has corrected values of .546 and .616 respectively for the 150g and 168g LRAB.
I used the corrected values.


B.C. .546 is for 7mm 150 LRAB, ...270 cal 150 LRAB, BC = .591

your downrange comparison was based on .270cal 150 LRAB vs 7mm 168 LRAB.


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


In a word, "No"


Oops my mistake ,you said you could potentially spend $500 on a Mc Edge


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

I could take my M700 .30-06 and put a McMillan Edge on it for $500, with a final weight around 7.5 pounds, ...


***
***
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

While I would love to have a .280AI or a 6.5-06AI or similar in a rifle that was 6 pounds all up,....


How much does recoil really bother you considering you would relish a 6 lb 280 AI...?

Would 7-Mag at 7.5 lb, bother you anymore than a 6lb .280 A.I......?

Selecting middle of the road max.velocity and powder charge(Nosler data) for .280 AI - 168 LRAB( ie; 58grains , 2850mv)
recoil for a 6lb rifle is nearly 27 ft/lb.


7-Mag (at 7.5lbs) 168 LRAB (68 grains powder) at a more moderate 2900mv (than your orig. 3047 mv),
gives 24.35 ft/lb recoil
and still delivers better figures downrange than your .270win 150 LRAB.

If one chooses a different 7 -mag powder, 2900mv can be done with only about 62 grains,(Nosler data) and recoil under 23 ft/lb.




-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,719
W
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,719
What is so hard to under stand Brad.. Bowman a famous elk guide like the .270.. But he played with the 264 necked up to 7mm.. He saw enough value to urge Mike Walker of Rem to bring the round out commercially.. Mike did and the result was the 7mm mag... If Bowman thought there was a difference it was valid enough for Walker to act on it.. Now go play with your .308 and be happy..


Molon Labe
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Starman
B.C. .546 is for 7mm 150 LRAB, ...270 cal 150 LRAB, BC = .591

your downrange comparison was based on .270cal 150 LRAB vs 7mm 168 LRAB.


OK. My bad – the velocity energy and drift numbers I used line up with 8000 feet altitude, not 7000 feet. I reran the numbers for 7000 feet and came up with this:
.270 Win, 150g LRAB @ .591 BC, 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target:

.270 Win/150 LRAB @ 2910fps,
253 yds = zero point
299 yds = MPBR
47.1" = drop
2209fps - velocity
1626fpe = energy
16.2" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil


Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
In a word, "No"

Oops my mistake ,you said you could potentially spend $500 on a Mc Edge

Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
I could take my M700 .30-06 and put a McMillan Edge on it for $500, with a final weight around 7.5 pounds, ...


***
***
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
While I would love to have a .280AI or a 6.5-06AI or similar in a rifle that was 6 pounds all up,....


What I was talking about was options to spending $3500 to $4800 for a lighter weight rifle. Yeah, I’d rather buy a McMillan Edge for $500. But I haven’t done so for a variety of reasons, the most important being that doing so doesn’t have sufficient ROI.

Originally Posted by Starman
How much does recoil really bother you considering you would relish a 6 lb 280 AI...?


Here’s what I said about recoil earlier in this thread. I don’t see any need to retype when I can just copy/paste:

“Who cares about recoil? I do. And my daughters do. We see no reason to put up with more recoil than necessary to reliably achieve the goal, which is why the big boomers rarely go to the range. I've hit clay pigeons on the 600-yard berm using my .338WM, .300WM, a .30-06, 6.5-06AI and .257 Roberts. And maybe my .243. The light kickers are definitely more fun to shoot and easier to shoot accurately. Especially so for my daughters.”

The key phrase in that is “We see no reason to put up with more recoil than necessary to reliably achieve the goal…”. If I had a rifle that was 6 pounds all up it would be a great carry rifle. I’d put up with the increased recoil for some purposes and choose a different rifle for others.

Not that I need a .280AI as I already have a 7mm RM and .280 Rem.

Originally Posted by Starman
Would a 7-Mag or 30.06 at 7.5 lb, bother you anymore than a 6lb .280 A.I......?


Nope, because the recoil of the 7.5-pound rifles would be less for many loads.

Originally Posted by Starman
Selecting middle of the road max.velocity and powder charge(Nosler data) for .280 AI 168 LRAB( ie; 58grains , 2850mv)
recoil for a 6lb rifle comes in at nearly 27 ft/lb.

7-Mag (at 7.5lbs) 168 LRAB (68 grains powder) at a more moderate 2900mv (than your orig. 3047 mv), gives 24.35 ft/lb recoil
and delivers better figures downrange than your .270win 150 LRAB.


First, I come up with a different recoil figure for a 168g bullet, 68g powder, 2900fps and 7.5lb rifle – 27.5 ft-lbs vs your 24.35 ft-lbs. Your number seems to line up better with a rifle/scope combo just under 8.5 pounds.

Comparing the .270/150g LRAB to the 7mm RM/168g LRAB load:

.270 Win, 150g LRAB @ .591 BC, 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target, 600 yards, 2910fps MV:
253 yds = zero point
299 yds = MPBR
47.1" = drop
2209fps - velocity
1626fpe = energy
16.2" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil (8.3lb rifle and scope = Ruger Hawkeye and Burris 3-9x40 FulField II))

7mm RM, 168g LRAB @ .616 B.C., 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target, 600 yards, 2900fps MV:
253 yds = zero point
299 yds = MPBR
53.1" = drop
2227fps - velocity
1850fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
24.9 ft-lbs recoil (8.3lb rifle and scope)
27.5 ft-lbs recoil (7.5lb rifle and scope)

Originally Posted by Starman
“… better figures downrange than your .270win 150 LRAB.”

???

Zero and MPBR ranges are identical. The .270 has a 6” advantage in drop while the 7mm RM has a 0.7” advantage in drift. Given the closeness in the drift, I’d say the advantage goes to the .270 Win. The 7mm RM has an insignificant 18fps advantage in retained velocity and a 224fpe advantage. Advantage 7mm RM, but given that the .270’s 2209fps and 1626fpe @ 600 is adequate for anything Daughter #1 is going to be doing in the foreseeable future, the extra 18fps and 224fpe are pretty much a “don’t care”.

Which brings us to recoil and the fact that the .270 is for Daughter #1. At 17.7 ft-lbs recoil it is 1.9 ft-lbs (11%) more than the .308 Win load she has been using. The 7mm RM 168g load is 41% more than the .270 load with similar weight (8.3lb) rifle/scope combos and 55% more than the .270 with a 7.5lb rifle/scope.

Based on the figures, the advantage easily goes to the .270 and 150g LRAB for Daughter #1’s purposes.







Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/16/19. Reason: edited for clarity

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


Zero and MPBR ranges are identical. The .270 has a 6” advantage in drop while the 7mm RM has a 0.7” advantage in drift. Given the closeness in the drift
, I’d say the advantage goes to the .270 Win. The 7mm RM has an insignificant 18fps advantage in retained velocity and a 224fpe advantage. Advantage 7mm RM,
but given that the .270’s 2209fps and 1626fpe @ 600 is adequate for anything Daughter #1 is going to be doing in the foreseeable future, the extra 18fps and 224fpe
are pretty much a “don’t care”.


since 168 LRAB 2900mv already has either equal or excess of what you require in certain values,

why did you ramp up 168 LRAB to 3047mv in you first 600yd ballistic comparison?..why push it that hard?

Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

The .270 has a 6” advantage in drop

.270 Win, 150g LRAB @ .591 BC, 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target, 600 yards, 2910fps MV:
253 yds = zero point
47.1" = drop

7mm RM, 168g LRAB @ .616 B.C., 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target, 600 yards, 2900fps MV:
253 yds = zero point
53.1" = drop




Ive tried a number of ballistic calculators and cannot find one that gives 150 LRAB( .591)2910mv anything like a 6" drop advantage over 168 LRAB(.616)2900mv
7000ft alt. / 253 yd zero:

no matter which program I use, both results come out very close to each other.

150 LRAB - 53.07" 600yd
168 LRAB -52.91" 600yd

Its illogical in physics that a lower B.C. projectile would have (6") less drop than a higher B.C. projectile, when launched at virtually
the same MV and with same zero point.


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
You are right - it is not logical. My calculator defaulted to 300 yard zero when I recalculated for the .270 and I forgot to change it to 253 yards. Once again, my bad.

That said, the only number that changes is the drop. The corrected drop value of 53.4" is used below.


.270 Win, 150g LRAB @ .591 BC, 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target, 600 yards, 2910fps MV:
253 yds = zero point
299 yds = MPBR
53.4" = drop
2209fps - velocity
1626fpe = energy
16.2" = drift
17.7 ft-lbs recoil (8.3lb rifle and scope = Ruger Hawkeye and Burris 3-9x40 FulField II))

7mm RM, 168g LRAB @ .616 B.C., 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target, 600 yards, 2900fps MV:
253 yds = zero point
299 yds = MPBR
53.1" = drop
2227fps - velocity
1850fpe = energy
15.5" = drift
24.9 ft-lbs recoil (8.3lb rifle and scope)
27.5 ft-lbs recoil (7.5lb rifle and scope)


So the 7mm RM /168g LRAB DOES have the advantage in drop at 600 yards, by a whopping 0.3". And it wins in drift by 0.7" drift, as I stated before.

But my point remains the same - if both loads are more than adequate for our purposes at 700 yards - using 2000fps and 1500fpe as the benchmark - but our personal limits due to practice restrictions is 600 yards, the additional 23fps and 224fpe at 600 yards is a big "don't care".

For Daughter #1, the disadvantage of the additional 41% recoil of the 7mm load at 2900fps far outweighs its advantages at 600.

For my purposes, the 150g LRAB in my 7mm RM beats the 168g LRAB.

7mm RM, 150g LRAB @ .546 B.C., 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target, 600 yards, 3150fps MV:
272 yds = zero point
321 yds = MPBR
543.7" = drop
2357fps - velocity
1851fpe = energy
15.7" = drift
22.5 ft-lbs recoil (8.3lb rifle and scope, 63.0g powder)


I'd go with the 150g LRAB for my 22" .280 Rem as well:

280 Rem, 150g LRAB @ .546 B.C., 7000 ft altitude MPBR zero for 6” target, 600 yards, 2850fps MV:
247 yds = zero point
292 yds = MPBR
58.2" = drop
2106fps - velocity
1478fpe = energy
18.3" = drift
18.5 ft-lbs recoil (8.3lb rifle and scope, 57.0g powder)

Does this mean I'll never hunt with my .338WM or .300WM again? No. It just means that the job I want done can be accomplished with a lot less recoil. Same reason I switched from 160g bullets to 140g bullets in my 7mm RM over a decade ago.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,729
S
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,729
Wow, epic.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Never made much sense to me to hamstring a cartridge with a mediocre bullet, only to deal with 40% more recoil than you’d get with another cartridge shooting a better bullet.

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,464
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,464
Nothing like the battle of the ballistic tables. My head hurts.



“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,902
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,902
Jordan,

Don't know about Canada, but in the USA pushing mediocre-BC bullets as fast as possible is an old tradition....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Originally Posted by smokepole
Wow, epic.


Haha I agree... just wow....


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,791
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,791
Originally Posted by smokepole
Wow, epic.

+1 I'm sure glad I started elk hunting before the internet was invented, so I just bought a .30-06 and started killing elk.


SAVE 200 ELK, KILL A WOLF

NRA Endowment Life Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,142
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,142
My goodness. Finding the better elk round is hard (that's what she said...again).



Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
I U that worried about recoil.


Buy a Ravin crossbow,


"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills












Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
T
tzone Offline OP
Campfire 'Bwana
OP Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
Well I'm not and no.


Camp is where you make it.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 22,869
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 22,869
Tzone: I have actually Hunted AND killed Bull Elk with both calibers you are interested in - I would prefer you choose the 7m/m Remington Magnum with 160 grain Nosler Partition bullets for Elk - if adding Deer that bullet would do also but probably more energy than need be!
Best of luck to you.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,452
E
Campfire Regular
Online Content
Campfire Regular
E
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,452
Why not get the best of both worlds like I did and get a 270 Weatherby!

Elk Country


"I refuse to waste my common sense on those who have been educated beyond their intelligence"

All you need to know about Democrats is they call American citizens "Deplorables" and illegal immigrants "Dreamers"!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,292
R
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
R
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,292
I have hunted with two 7MM RM's. Took one elk with the M700 Remington tuned but basically stock rifle. Worked just fine but the 90 yard shot really didn't test the round much though the 175 gr. Hornady Innerlok did not exit. I like the round and if a slightly heavier rifle doesn't bother you I don't see any reason not to get one. That said I have used the 270 and 30-06 more and find they did very well also. I would go out and handle some rifles chambered in either of the cartridges and pick the one you like best.


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]



Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,939
G
GF1 Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,939
The .270 with 150 grain Nosler Partitions and the 7mm RM with 160 grain Partitions are so close in performance that the difference is hardly worth a discussion. A bore diameter difference of .007”, ballistic coefficients of .465 vs. .475, velocity difference of less than 100 fps. I too have killed elk and deer with both and honestly can’t see a difference in effect. The only big difference is the weight of the rifle; that’s why I no longer own a 7mm RM and own three .270s. But that’s just preference. You can easily work a 7mm RM into an 8 to 8 1/4# rifle, and there are lots of happy campers who use them. Angels dancing on the head of a pin.

If I want a significant step up in power, I reach for one of the 300s (my particular pet is a custom pre-war Model 70 in 300 Win Mag), shooting a slippery 200 grain bullet at 2950 fps. Increasingly, I’m doubting the extra power is necessary, but I’m just fond of the rifle and take it along anyhow.

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,104
O
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
O
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,104
Originally Posted by tzone
A buddy and I were having a few cold ones after work today. We got to talkin about hunting elk in a few years as he has a contact in CO and asked if I’d be interested. Neither on of us had ever shot an elk. I was telling him about the new M700 I was looking at and said I was thinking about a .270 since it’s been so long since I’ve had one. He said I “need” a mag if we head west.

Now I know damn well I don’t need a mag and was showing him some ballistics that pretty much meant nothing since he has a 7mag for deer that’s what he’d use for elk too.

I have plenty of others I could use, but not a .270 or 7mag.

For those of you that have used them on elk, which one?


I started elk hunting as a kid with a .308 and it was enough gun to get it done in. Later in life, I used a .30-06 because I won it at a banquet and it was my favorite gun. Now that times have changed things a bit and I have plenty of guns to choose from I can tell you that I carried a Tikka T3 in 7mm Rem mag this last season. Mt back up rifle has been a custom savage that is chambered in 7.82 Lazzeroni Patriot, but this last year I took a Tikka T3 Ultralight in .270 as my back up gun. So I guess I took them both with me on the last outing.

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
You are right - it is not logical. My calculator defaulted ....


How come you didn't pick up on the resulting error?

It would only take a reasonably competent ballistic tinkerer with rudimentary grasp of the science
to recognize or identify such a glaring error in results.

Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

So the 7mm RM /168g LRAB DOES have the advantage in drop at 600 yards, by a whopping 0.3"


The glaring error in favor of .270cal you make and we're not able to identify, is more my point.
I made no blind dumb ass claims about 7mm ballistics like you did for .270win

Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

That said, the only number that changes is the drop.


If you used that wrong drop figure when taking a shot on elk 600 yds, compounded with some human error
movement from the operator behind the rifle butt,..how would you fair?



-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
You are right - it is not logical. My calculator defaulted ....

How come you didn't pick up on the resulting error?

It would only take a reasonably competent ballistic tinkerer with rudimentary grasp of the science
to recognize or identify such a glaring error in results.


Why didn't I pick up on it? Probably because I had far more important things on my mind, like Daughter #1 giving me a new grandson and then being rushed back to the hospital with a life threatening condition - and nothing I could do but wait. A rather distressing and distracting couple of days, hope you never have to go through something like that.
Quote

Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

So the 7mm RM /168g LRAB DOES have the advantage in drop at 600 yards, by a whopping 0.3"


The glaring error in favor of .270cal you make and we're not able to identify, is more my point.
I made no blind dumb ass claims about 7mm ballistics like you did for .270win


I got the drop wrong. Big whoop.

Quote
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

That said, the only number that changes is the drop.


If you used that wrong drop figure when taking a shot on elk 600 yds, compounded with some human error
movement from the operator behind the rifle butt,..how would you fair?


We don't rely on drop calculations, we actually shoot at 600 to verify. And 500, and under.

My point about the .270 Win is that a 150g LRAB @ 2910fps will do everything Daughter #1 wants it to do, will do it well past 600 yards and her 400 yard comfort range (even though she shoots out to 600) and will do it with under 18 ft-lbs recoil, That's not a "blind dumb ass claim", it's a fact.

It is also a fact that a 7mm RM can't beat the.270/150g LRAB/2910fps load at 600 without significantly more recoil - at least not with any load I've found using bullets we would actually use.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by GF1
The .270 with 150 grain Nosler Partitions and the 7mm RM with 160 grain Partitions are so close in performance that the difference is hardly worth a discussion. A bore diameter difference of .007”, ballistic coefficients of .465 vs. .475, velocity difference of less than 100 fps. I too have killed elk and deer with both and honestly can’t see a difference in effect. The only big difference is the weight of the rifle; that’s why I no longer own a 7mm RM and own three .270s. But that’s just preference. You can easily work a 7mm RM into an 8 to 8 1/4# rifle, and there are lots of happy campers who use them. Angels dancing on the head of a pin.

If I want a significant step up in power, I reach for one of the 300s (my particular pet is a custom pre-war Model 70 in 300 Win Mag), shooting a slippery 200 grain bullet at 2950 fps. Increasingly, I’m doubting the extra power is necessary, but I’m just fond of the rifle and take it along anyhow.


Kind of funny that the difference in “power” between the .270 and 7RM isn’t worth discussing, but the .300 is a significant step up, despite that the same logic you just applied to the .270 vs 7RM also applies to the 7RM vs .300WM. The 7RM can launch a 195 EOL at 2875 fps; less than 100 fps difference between that and the .300/200gr, 5gr of bullet weight, and the BC favours the 195.

Your last sentence makes complete sense. Nothing wrong with personal preference!

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


It is also a fact that a 7mm RM can't beat the.270/150g LRAB/2910fps load at 600 without significantly more recoil - at least not with any load I've found using bullets we would actually use.



That is less a fact about the 7RM, and more a function of your preference in bullets.

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
W
WAM Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
Seems we’re not comparing apples to apples with bullet weights v. velocity. Of course the 7mm magnums have more recoil. If recoil is your objective, join the 264 short round crowd.


Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,211
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

Kind of funny that the difference in “power” between the .270 and 7RM isn’t worth discussing, but the .300 is a significant step up, despite that the same logic you just applied to the .270 vs 7RM also applies to the 7RM vs .300WM. The 7RM can launch a 195 EOL at 2875 fps; less than 100 fps difference between that and the .300/200gr, 5gr of bullet weight, and the BC favours the 195.

Your last sentence makes complete sense. Nothing wrong with personal preference!


I totally agree with you Jordan.


“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


It is also a fact that a 7mm RM can't beat the.270/150g LRAB/2910fps load at 600 without significantly more recoil - at least not with any load I've found using bullets we would actually use.



That is less a fact about the 7RM, and more a function of your preference in bullets.


So far it is true with ALL the bullets I've looked at, including Nosler, Hornady, Berger, Swift, Barnes, Speer and Federal.

In addition, the .270 chronos 2910fps from Daughter's 22" barreled M700, while all the 7mm RM load data I've looked at (Speer, Hornady, Barnes, Nosler, Accuate, Hodgdon, Lyman) uses 24" barrels. To be fair, we should adjust velocities for equal barrel lengths when comparing the two.

If you are aware of a specific 7mm RM load (or loads) that beats the .270/150g LRAB@ 2910fps without significant additional recoil, I would sincerely appreciate your providing it (or them). The .270/150g LRAB generates a calculated 17.7 ft-lbs recoil with Daughter's 8.3 pound rifle/scope/ammo combo. From what I've seen, you are in 280 Rem or AI territory by the time you approach that level of recoil with a 22" 7mm RM - and the 600-yard performance is below that of the .270 load.


Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/20/19. Reason: spelnig and redundant phrase deleted

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,292
R
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
R
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,292
I hope all is well with your family now. I have noticed a lot of jackassery lately here, wonder why?


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]



Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by WAM
Seems we’re not comparing apples to apples with bullet weights v. velocity. Of course the 7mm magnums have more recoil. If recoil is your objective, join the 264 short round crowd.


My 6.5-06AI will do everything I need better than any short 6.5 or any 7mm RM load I've ever used. But the .270 load is for Daughter #1, not me, and it still beats any 7mm load I've used or even seen when comparing apples to apples - meaning 22" barrel and under 20 pounds recoil. Daughter #1's .308 load comes in at 15.9 ft-lbs, so 17.7 for the .270 load is quite reasonable to do what she wants done, She killed her deer last fall with a .300WSM (Winchester Black Shadow, 165g Barnes Vor-tx with claimed 3120fps MV), with recoil conservatively estimated over 26 ft-lbs. She didn't mind the recoil much but would at the range where she will do most of her shooting. Like a lot of 7mm RM loads, the .300WSM load doesn't provide her enough advantage over the .270/150LRAB to justify the additional recoil,

As a lefty she has limited options in factory rifles. I think the lefty Rem M700 will work well for her - the load is very accurate and delivers 2131fps and 1513fpe tp 700 yards at 7K altitude. At 400, which is her current comfort range, 13.5" drop, 2448fps, 1996fpe and 6.6" drift. Hope to get her comfort range to at least 500, where the .270/150LRAB delivers 2339fps and 1823fpe with less than 30" drop and 11" drift..

I've been shoting a 7mm RM since 1982 and simply don't see whre it would be a better fit for her.


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
If your daughter is recoil shy, put a 243 in her paws..... they work quite well...


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


It is also a fact that a 7mm RM can't beat the.270/150g LRAB/2910fps load at 600 without significantly more recoil - at least not with any load I've found using bullets we would actually use.



That is less a fact about the 7RM, and more a function of your preference in bullets.


So far it is true with ALL the bullets I've looked at, including Nosler, Hornady, Berger, Swift, Barnes, Speer and Federal.

In addition, the .270 chronos 2910fps from Daughter's 22" barreled M700, while all the 7mm RM load data I've looked at (Speer, Hornady, Barnes, Nosler, Accuate, Hodgdon, Lyman) uses 24" barrels. To be fair, we should adjust velocities for equal barrel lengths when comparing the two.

If you are aware of a specific 7mm RM load (or loads) that beats the .270/150g LRAB@ 2910fps without significant additional recoil, I would sincerely appreciate your providing it (or them). The .270/150g LRAB generates a calculated 17.7 ft-lbs recoil with Daughter's 8.3 pound rifle/scope/ammo combo. From what I've seen, you are in 280 Rem or AI territory by the time you approach that level of recoil with a 22" 7mm RM - and the 600-yard performance is below that of the .270 load.


Well, if we’re talking about comparing loads in two specific rifles, then we should clarify the barrel length and twist rate of those barrels. Not an idealized, normalized comparison, but an actual comparison of the ballistics provided by various loads on your rifles. The .270’s 22” barrelled velocity is real world. What twist rate does it have? That makes a difference. If a factory R700 and 10” twist, then Bryan Litz’ testing says the true G1 BC of the LRAB exiting your barrel is around 0.550.

He tested the 7mm 150 LRAB at 0.576 G1 BC using a common 9” twist. Assuming a 7RM of the same weight as your .270, a minimum charge of H4350 or H100v would generate about 18.3 ft-lbs of recoil and about 2830 fps. Likewise, the 162 ELD-X at 2755 fps using a min load of IMR 4451 generates 18.7 ft-lbs. The recoil would be less in a rifle heavier than your .270. Both of those loads drift less in the wind at 600 than the .270/150 LRAB, and the recoil is comparable.

As an aside, the 143 ELD-X from the 6.5 Creedmoor at 2750 fps also drifts less in the wind at 600 than the .270 load, and would recoil even less for her.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
According to you guys, the precise scopes, bullets blah blah [bleep] blah, turn the turrets and let er chew..... I mean, numbers don't mean shiit if bullets and swfa piles of shiit are as accurate as both of you say..... hint


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Or simply get off your cuunts and get within 450 yards, which I s really super hard!!!!! Laffin


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by Judman
According to you guys, the precise scopes, bullets blah blah [bleep] blah, turn the turrets and let er chew..... I mean, numbers don't mean shiit if bullets and swfa piles of shiit are as accurate as both of you say..... hint

Hint......you can’t buy proficiency. Improved bullets and scopes, and higher “numbers”, simply enable the proficient to be proficient at a wider range of distances than they were proficient at before.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by Judman
Or simply get off your cuunts and get within 450 yards, which I s really super hard!!!!! Laffin

I like to be able to seal the deal, near or far, and have done plenty of both.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Near is more apt than far, everytime.... I somehow get by quite handily with junk Leopold every time, and never ask myself "what if"... But I don't get out much... Hint


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Right on. You only have yourself to please. You could get by quite handily with a front stuffer and irons, and I’d be happy for you. Wouldn’d bother me a bit. I happen to be quite interested not only in chasing critters, but also in modern ballistics, increasing my capability to make hits at whatever distance, and discussing same with other interested parties. Never said you had to do it my way, and I don’t plan on doing it yours wink

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,615
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,615
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Right on. You only have yourself to please. You could get by quite handily with a front stuffer and irons, and I’d be happy for you. Wouldn’d bother me a bit. I happen to be quite interested not only in chasing critters, but also in modern ballistics, increasing my capability to make hits at whatever distance, and discussing same with other interested parties. Never said you had to do it my way, and I don’t plan on doing it yours wink




Good post right there!



There are posts and threads I seriously disagree with,
That's ok.

They don't have to use the stuff I do,
I'm not diminished if someone loves hunting moose with a Savage 22 Hornet,
Or prairie dogs with a 700 H&H.


Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,112
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,112
Originally Posted by elkcountry
Why not get the best of both worlds like I did and get a 270 Weatherby!

Elk Country


I like my 270 Weatherby. I like my 270 Win. I like my 280. I like my 308. I like my 30 06. I like my 300 mags. I like my 338. I like my 358. I like my 9.3x62. I like my 223, 22-250, 243 and 6.8 SPC too, but not for elk, moose or other large game.


Heaven has a wall, a gate and strict immigration policy.

Hell has open borders.

Let that sink in.....

I Live for Opening Day!
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
I agree with Dillon.

Nice post Jordan!


"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills












Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Right on. You only have yourself to please. You could get by quite handily with a front stuffer and irons, and I’d be happy for you. Wouldn’d bother me a bit. I happen to be quite interested not only in chasing critters, but also in modern ballistics, increasing my capability to make hits at whatever distance, and discussing same with other interested parties. Never said you had to do it my way, and I don’t plan on doing it yours wink


And he still doesn't need a magnum to hunt elk, which was the question....


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Right on. You only have yourself to please. You could get by quite handily with a front stuffer and irons, and I’d be happy for you. Wouldn’d bother me a bit. I happen to be quite interested not only in chasing critters, but also in modern ballistics, increasing my capability to make hits at whatever distance, and discussing same with other interested parties. Never said you had to do it my way, and I don’t plan on doing it yours wink


And he still doesn't need a magnum to hunt elk, which was the question....

I never said that he did. I entered this thread to weigh in on an incorrect ballistic statement that was made in the course of discussion. In fact, I said that either can be made to work just fine, as can a .358 Win, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30-06, or .375 H&H.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

Well, if we’re talking about comparing loads in two specific rifles, then we should clarify the barrel length and twist rate of those barrels. Not an idealized, normalized comparison, but an actual comparison of the ballistics provided by various loads on your rifles. The .270’s 22” barrelled velocity is real world. What twist rate does it have? That makes a difference. If a factory R700 and 10” twist, then Bryan Litz’ testing says the true G1 BC of the LRAB exiting your barrel is around 0.550.

He tested the 7mm 150 LRAB at 0.576 G1 BC using a common 9” twist. Assuming a 7RM of the same weight as your .270, a minimum charge of H4350 or H100v would generate about 18.3 ft-lbs of recoil and about 2830 fps. Likewise, the 162 ELD-X at 2755 fps using a min load of IMR 4451 generates 18.7 ft-lbs. The recoil would be less in a rifle heavier than your .270. Both of those loads drift less in the wind at 600 than the .270/150 LRAB, and the recoil is comparable.

As an aside,
the 143 ELD-X from the 6.5 Creedmoor at 2750 fps also drifts less in the wind at 600 than the .270 load, and would recoil even less for her.


Jordan -

First, thank you for your thoughtful and civil response.

Daughter's .270 is a lefty factory M700 with whatever the standard twist was back in 1970. I have not measured it but assume 1-10. My 7mm RM, a Ruger M77 made in 1982, is also factory stock and assumed to be 1-9.5, which is the current Ruger twist.

My original thought was to buy a rifle for the action, then rebarrel to 6.5PRC, 6.5-06 or 6.5-06AI. If the .270 I purchased hadn't been accurate, I would be looking at rebarreling to one of the latter two. (I reload for the 6.5-06AI and her husband reloads as well.) At this point it is moot as the .270 does everything needed with superb accuracy. Daughter is very happy with it (a BDL model in good shape) and that is what matters most to me. I've taken time to glass bed it and check and adjust the trigger. Her hubby will probably replace the trigger with a Timney.

If Bryan Litz is correct about the .270/150g LRAB, the difference between 6.5/143 ELD-X @ 2750fps and the .270/150 LRAB @ 2910fps is pretty thin. Nosler reduced the B.C. values for many of their LRAB bullets based on testing by EMRTC in New Mexico, which provided the .591 value for the .270/150 LRAB. In any case, we will shoot her .270 out to 600 to verify what the B.C value is for her rifle. Whether .550 or .591, the difference in drift is only 1.3" at 600.

Thanks again.
CH


Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Well, since you already own, have tuned, and like the rifle (.270), the ballistic advantage of a 6.5 Creedmoor or 7RM is likely not the largest factor in your choice. Although the Creedmoor does recoil significantly less than the .270 wink

Here is a chart Bryan put together showing the results of his testing using different twist rates and stability factors (SG’s):

[Linked Image]

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,663
P
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
P
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,663
Jordon, nice job of keeping the discussion on track and passing on good information. Typical Canadian, polite and respectful!

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,125
Originally Posted by patbrennan
Jordon, nice job of keeping the discussion on track and passing on good information. Typical Canadian, polite and respectful!


I agree. Jordan is always laid back and polite. That being said the original thread turned off track, which they usually do, to no fault of Jordan's.


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.

Ain’t easy havin pals.
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
W
WAM Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,855
Just looking at the 150 gr numbers, not enough real difference to make a whit at 400+ yards for the hunter. 7mm Weatherby leaves the .270 Win in the dust with a close BC as does the 7mm Remington Magnum. Yes, both have more recoil.


Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Well, since you already own, have tuned, and like the rifle (.270), the ballistic advantage of a 6.5 Creedmoor or 7RM is likely not the largest factor in your choice. Although the Creedmoor does recoil significantly less than the .270 wink
...


Jordan -

As you correctly surmised, there were a number of things considered when the .270 purchase was made. Daughter #1 has been using a .308 Win with a 130g TTSX (B.C. .35 claimed) at 3045fps chrono'd. Using the admittedly arbitrary values of 2000fps and 1500fpe as the yardstick, the primary goal was to give her extended reach with minimal recoil increase.

More or less in order of importance, where close or better counts:
1. Left handed
2. 2000fps, 1500fpe @ 600 yards
3. Recoil
4. Drift
5. Drop
6. Rifle make and model
7. Even money for her unwanted, right-handed .30-06
8. Factory hunting ammo availability and variety
9. Rifle availability

The M700 BDL fit those parameters very well. The fact that it was made in 1975 gave me some concern regarding barrel condition, but I needn't have worried - test loads with the 150g LRAB printed half MOA 3-shot groups with two powders, both using consecutive 0.5g powder increments. That's how I arrived at 2910fps - it was the middle load with H100V.

Agreed, the 6.5 Creed would recoil less. Her hubby has two - a heavy barrel M700 and (IIRC) a Ruger American Predator. Daughter will probably shoot them but they are, for her, wrong-handed.



Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/22/19. Reason: corrected numbering: 1,2,4... to 1,2,3...

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,813
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,813
280 AI.

What was the question? wink


Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,777
M
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
M
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,777
I watched 2 different people kill elk with 150 gr bullets out of a 270 Winchester. I guess it was a good thing they didn't know they weren't properly armed. They just shot the elk, the elk died. I guess if they would have used a 7 mm Mag the elk would have been deader or crippled when they flinched and muffed the shot.? Kiss principle here people , the woman has a 270 she likes and has faith in, leave well enough alone don't need to undermine her faith in her self. MB


" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,095
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


Case in point,
we spotted elk at 1100 yards this year. Neither Daughter #1 or her hubby had ever taken an elk and none of use were prepared for a shot that long.
We closed to 476 yards, at an altitude (~8500 feet) and wind conditions (essentially none) where Daughter's .308 Win/130g TTSX @ 3045fps MV
would have been adequate. While would have been quite happy to take the shot, Daughter #1 was not comfortable shooting at that range. By the
time we closed to her comfort range the elk were gone.

Granted, I used this event as an excuse to get her a .270 Win and develop a 150g LRAB load that delivers elk-killing velocity and energy
(2000fps and 1500fpe is my rule of thumb)


Your rule of thumb is 1500 fpe.... 130 ttsx 3045mv would not deliver that at 476 yds...,yet you say you would be happy to take the shot.

If manufacturer claimed BC for 130ttsx can be relied on, you would have about 1360 fpe./ 476 yd
However tests on Barnes bullets show real world BC can be below published numbers in some cases by well over 5%
which could potentially bring energy down to around 1300 fpe / 476 yd. (8500 Alt..)...or 1243 fpe / 476 yd. ( 7000 Alt.)


Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter


Daughter #1 has done her elk hunting with a .308 Win and 130g TTSX @ 3045fps. I figure that would have worked out
to about 500 yards at 7000 feet and above,.


130 ttsx /500yd (7000ft) would give about 1250 fpe , if claimed BC .350 is correct.
with a possible B.C. error of up to 5% , it could be more like 1195 fpe / 500 yd.

That is significantly below 1500 fpe, so Im left wondering what the actual real world minimum energy level is that you would
be prepared to shoot elk with?


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
I know that wasn’t directed at me, but enough to expand the bullet and penetrate to the vitals wink

Doesn’t take much...

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,709
1200/1500 is 80 percent. Probably not really designated as " significant ".

The way I understand mono lithics it is more velocity at point of impact more important than fpe. I am not sure on the fps required for a Barnes to open up, so I would just be guessing. I would guess 1600 fps or greater?

They kind of behave like a broad head, ( arrow).

Last edited by Angus1895; 01/30/19.

"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills












Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,624
Q
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Q
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,624
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by Bocajnala
The 7mm mag will out perform the .270.

I own a .270 (my wife's) and not a 7mm mag.

Either will work just fine

-Jake



My math must be all fu cked up. That doesn't add up. 1 "outperforms" the other when they both produce dead elk? How many times do we need to say this. It's all about the bullet, not the headstamp...


I agree with this. Ive killed many animals with both and there is zero difference. Honestly id think you would be hard pressed to find two more similar rounds especially if you're not hand loading. You can safely get 3000 fps out of a 150 in the 270 and do about the same in the 7 mag with a 160. Pretty close no?

Id prefer the 270 for the lesser recoil, but the 7mag is a damn fine round and my favorite of the belted mags.

Its odd that an earlier poster mentioned that the 270 is not common in the camps he's been in. When it comes to the western US, i don't think ive ever been in a camp that didn't have a couple. Its THE quintessential western round in my opinion.


GOD Bless America
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,624
Q
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Q
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,624
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by GF1
The .270 with 150 grain Nosler Partitions and the 7mm RM with 160 grain Partitions are so close in performance that the difference is hardly worth a discussion. A bore diameter difference of .007”, ballistic coefficients of .465 vs. .475, velocity difference of less than 100 fps. I too have killed elk and deer with both and honestly can’t see a difference in effect. The only big difference is the weight of the rifle; that’s why I no longer own a 7mm RM and own three .270s. But that’s just preference. You can easily work a 7mm RM into an 8 to 8 1/4# rifle, and there are lots of happy campers who use them. Angels dancing on the head of a pin.

If I want a significant step up in power, I reach for one of the 300s (my particular pet is a custom pre-war Model 70 in 300 Win Mag), shooting a slippery 200 grain bullet at 2950 fps. Increasingly, I’m doubting the extra power is necessary, but I’m just fond of the rifle and take it along anyhow.


Kind of funny that the difference in “power” between the .270 and 7RM isn’t worth discussing, but the .300 is a significant step up, despite that the same logic you just applied to the .270 vs 7RM also applies to the 7RM vs .300WM. The 7RM can launch a 195 EOL at 2875 fps; less than 100 fps difference between that and the .300/200gr, 5gr of bullet weight, and the BC favours the 195.

Your last sentence makes complete sense. Nothing wrong with personal preference!


PUBLISHED data barely has Remington's big 7 (big in name only mind you) pushing 175s at that speed let along 195s. Chronographing those published loads yields even less in my experience. I don't see the need to compare (likely) grossly over pressure 7 mag loads against the .270. I will agree with you though on the point that the 300s don't offer a big step up in power. I honestly believe that next big step up in power over the .264, .277s. and .284s are the .338s.

The 7RM is a fine round, but it won't do anything a 270 won't in the real world of big game hunting except bark louder, kick harder, and eat more powder. But nobody is going to change your mind.

The best advice on this thread is to work on locating elk, bullet selection and marksmanship.

This is the .30-06 .308 debate


GOD Bless America
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,435
Berger’s data shows ~2850 for that exact bullet.

You’re right, nobody will change my mind because I‘ve actually used both a bunch at distance, and know which is easier to hit with when the wind blows. I’m not saying the terminal performance of one is better than the other, but putting the bullet where it belongs in adverse conditions is another matter.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Case in point,
we spotted elk at 1100 yards this year. Neither Daughter #1 or her hubby had ever taken an elk and none of use were prepared for a shot that long.
We closed to 476 yards, at an altitude (~8500 feet) and wind conditions (essentially none) where Daughter's .308 Win/130g TTSX @ 3045fps MV
would have been adequate. While would have been quite happy to take the shot, Daughter #1 was not comfortable shooting at that range. By the
time we closed to her comfort range the elk were gone.

Granted, I used this event as an excuse to get her a .270 Win and develop a 150g LRAB load that delivers elk-killing velocity and energy
(2000fps and 1500fpe is my rule of thumb)


Your rule of thumb is 1500 fpe.... 130 ttsx 3045mv would not deliver that at 476 yds...,yet you say you would be happy to take the shot.


Yup, I would have been quite happy to take the shot, as I was carrying my .300WM loaded with 175g LRX at about 3000fps MV.

And no, the .308/130g TTSX would not deliver 1500fpe at 476 yards, even at the nearly 8500 feet altitude where the opportunity presented itself. Had Daughter been comfortable taking the shot at 476, however, I would have been comfortable with her doing so. There was no wind to speak of and it was a full broadside opportunity - pretty much perfect conditions.

Quote
If manufacturer claimed BC for 130ttsx can be relied on, you would have about 1360 fpe./ 476 yd
However tests on Barnes bullets show real world BC can be below published numbers in some cases by well over 5%
which could potentially bring energy down to around 1300 fpe / 476 yd. (8500 Alt..)...or 1243 fpe / 476 yd. ( 7000 Alt.)


2000fps and 1500fpe are my rule of thumb number as I consider them more than adequate with a good bullet. As in "more than adequate", not "minimum".

Quote
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter

Daughter #1 has done her elk hunting with a .308 Win and 130g TTSX @ 3045fps. I figure that would have worked out
to about 500 yards at 7000 feet and above.


130 ttsx /500yd (7000ft) would give about 1250 fpe , if claimed BC .350 is correct.
with a possible B.C. error of up to 5% , it could be more like 1195 fpe / 500 yd.

That is significantly below 1500 fpe, so Im left wondering what the actual real world minimum energy level is that you would
be prepared to shoot elk with?


Depends on the specifics of the shot opportunity. I've hunted elk with my .44 Mag carbine, 240g @ 1880fps. Always figured 100-150 yards max for that rifle and load, which retains 1572fps/1318fpe at 100 and 1435fps/1097fpe at 150. The one shot I had with that rifle I passed on - not because the bull was at 100 yards but because my hunting buddy already had one down and I figured we already had enough work ahead of us.

I don't know how you evaluate opportunities but give me 1000fpe and a fat bullet - or enough velocity to expand one - and things will die. Give me 2000fps and 1500fpe and, while they may or may not die faster, I'll be more comfortable taking the shot. The .300WM/175g LRX load I was using delivers about 2361fps/2167fpe at 476 yards and 7000 feet, more at the almost 8500 where we were hunting. Even better.

Daughter's .308/130g TTSX load? Not my first choice for 500 yards but capable nevertheless. Her new-to-her .270 Win with a 150g LRAB should deliver 2339fps/1823fpe @ 500 at 7000 feet. Better.



Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/31/19. Reason: fixed quote start/stop

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 771
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 771
The .270 is perfectly useable with good billets. I’d go with the 7 mag just because I prefer more power whenever I can get it.


“One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.” - James Russell Lowell
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
703 members (11point, 10gaugemag, 10Glocks, 160user, 117LBS, 12344mag, 82 invisible), 2,654 guests, and 1,285 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,691
Posts18,399,843
Members73,820
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.121s Queries: 14 (0.006s) Memory: 1.6777 MB (Peak: 2.7676 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 23:02:45 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS