Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire What limits God's will?

If it is not God's will that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9) and indeed God does want all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)...

Then what, exactly, is limiting God's will?

Hint: You can't say that God is limiting His own will, because that's oxymoronical.

If indeed God's word is true, and He does wish that we would all be saved, why aren't we all saved?

I'm particularly interested in the Calvinist's answers to this question.

Dan

His word.

His nature.

His attributes.

Now I know you can't believe that...

Psalm 78:40 "How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel."

Read the rest of the Psalm - it really is quite enlightening.

Brother Keith... that's great! I appreciate that scripture.

And of course we have our answer: We limit God's will, by virtue of the fact that He gave us a will of our own.

It truly is that simple.

Again, I had never noticed that verse in Psalm 78, so thank you for pointing that out.

Dan

Oh, but I am quite serious. God will not do anything that is contrary to His word, His nature or His attributes. For instance, God is holy. It is one of if not His top primary attribute. He will not do anything that would violate His holiness.

These are the reason Psalms (and a few other places in the Bible) explain that we limit God. He will do nothing that violates His word, nature or attributes. So when we do that which prevents Him from blessing us it is because of His word and His nature and His attributes that He will not. We cannot limit His power, but God limits Himself by these three. He tells us that He had plans to bless us, but He could not because we limited His ability to without violating His word, nature or attributes. Your original question, for instance. God wants all men to be saved, but His attribute of holiness will not allow sin in His presence. His attribute of justice will not allow Him to just forget about sin. Sin must be paid for. Therefore, man's sin had to be paid for, and the plan of salvation God decreed was for His Lamb to pay the price, and that redemption to be applied to an individual's account by faith. Therefore, even though God desires the salvation of all, justice demands that only those who are under the blood be forgiven. God will not save those who refuse the cross of Jesus because it would be against His word, His nature and His attributes. We put limits on the will of God because He has set limits on what He will and will not do.

Atsa fact! I have a message in my arsenal called "People Who Limit God." It starts with Psalm 78. It ain't purty, but it works.

Lizard,

1 Tim: God is love. His love desires everybody to come to repentance. His justice won't let that happen though. In 2nd Peter, Peter is writing to the elect. Read the letter from that perspective.

For the record,

1John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

2Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

That is the only verse in 2 Peter with the word elect or election in it, and it gives instruction to a "brother" to MAKE his calling and election SURE. And how does he do that?

Why he adds to his faith, virtue.
He adds to virtue, knowledge.
He adds to knowledge, temperance.
He adds to temperance, patience.
He adds to patience, godliness.
He adds to godliness, brotherly kindness.
He adds to brotherly kindness, charity. (2Peter 1:5-8)

These things that the Brother ADDS to his faith, keep him from being barren or unfruitful. Kinda sounds like it is something this brother does to make his calling and election sure. If it is something that he ADDS, or does, then the election is not unconditional.

But like Brother Fish, I am just a dumb ole babtist struggling along with an IQ way below the average calvinist elitist.

Keith... you're a very effective teacher. Awesome verses once again.

Sanlen, I now see your point and I believe I agree with what you say. You don't appear to be discounting man's chosen actions as the reason that God doesn't save every last one of us.

The problem for the Calvinist is that he denies that man's actions, either good or bad, have anything to do with whether or not God calls us. This, as I've said elsewhere, makes us all sock puppets and accuses God of glorifying Himself, rather than receiving true glory from autonomous beings. Christ says that self-glorification means nothing, see John 8:54.

Joel, you could really learn from Keith (shootist), and I don't mean that in a condescending way. You're being taught wrong.

If I am wrong and the Calvinist is right, and Christ asks me at His Judgement Seat:

"Why didn't you accept the truth about me which John Calvin my servant taught the world?"

I will answer "Lord Jesus, I'm very sorry. I simply could not bring myself to see you as a God that would create unsaveable people who you claimed to love, but will shortly destroy in Hell fire because you chose to withhold your grace from these. Please, Lord, forgive me and teach me now this truth."

On the other hand, Joel, if you are wrong... if at the Judgement Seat Christ asks you "Have you never understood my love? How could you have ever seen me like you did? What allowed you to remain comfortable serving such a God as you say that I am?"

How will you answer Him?

For my part, I'd rather be wrong like me than wrong like you. Think about it.

Dan

Sorry, Joel. I should have also agreed with you about the fact that God in his love wants everyone to come to repentance. His justice won't allow that, BUT his MERCY provided a way in the person of his Son, by means of his GRACE for that to happen -- all who come unto God by Him.

So we are in at least partial agreement.

Oh, I wouldn't worry about Christ asking you about John Calvin, (and I'm sure you're not.)

God holds us accountible for what He has given us, not what He's given other people.

I personally believe that God does not take our actions into account for whom He saves. In fact, if that was the case none of us would be saved, for none of us will choose Christ, none of us follow after good, and we are all lost. All we like sheep have gone astray, and all our righteousness is as filthy rags. I have no idea why God saves anyone, other than His mercy and love. What I can tell you is that I did not choose Christ, He first chose me. But that does not mean He causes people not to be saved. We decide ourselves, of our own free will to sin, and not to choose Christ.

I don't know what or how, or who, I only know He saved me when He revealed Jesus to me and said, "come". And for that I will be eternally grateful.

I will say one other thing. God alone is worthy of glory. He will not share His glory with anyone, and that includes those who believe their goodness or actions had anything to do with their salvation. God did the impossible when He saved any lost soul. Compared to that, creating the universe was nothing. His mercy had to find a way to find the guilty innocent. Further. they (you and I) were the guilty who wouldn't admit they were and would not come to Him for forgiveness. How do you save a people who want to keep on sinning? God found a way to change their "want to". He found a way to have them (again, you and me) look up one day and realize they were a lost, hell bound sinner, and only God could save them. We did not save ourselves, He saved us, and He deserves all the glory for it.

His justice would have been perfectly just in allowing all of us to go to hell, but His mercy found a way to save some, for His love would not have been satisfied had He not. Oh the pain of God, to have His highest creation turn away from Him.

Blind, they do not see. Uncomprehending, they cannot understand. Somehow He found a way for them to see and understand, and believe, for even their faith to believe is a gift from God (Eph. 2)

I cannot tell you how, or why, or who. I only know He saved me when He revealed Jesus to me and said, "come". And for that I will be eternally grateful.

But we now have the question:

How does God differentiate between who He chooses to save, and who He chooses to condemn?

For my part, I believe He extends the invitation to all, by presenting Himself through His creation (Romans 1:20-21), but that it is up to us to accept the invitation.

To use an analogy, if Joel were to invite me to dinner at his home, even though I'm a lizard ... that would be a nice gesture on his part. If I refuse the invitation, I don't get to go to dinner. It is up to me to accept the invitation, and Joel gives me that choice... I hope.

My accepting of Joel's invitation to dinner is soley my decision to make. The invitation has been extended out of his cordial nicety (remember, this is only a fictional analogy )... and it is incumbent on me to accept.

However, in the view presented by the Calvinist, Joel would first, for no particular reason, invite me to dinner. Then he'd thump me over the head and drag me to his house and call me lucky.

So I would not view the accepting of God's invitation as any great work on my part in my own salvation--but it is a necessary part, and there is quite a bit of scripture to support this notion.

Dan

I'm bowing out as this stuff really draws a line where I do not want one and I certainly wouldn't refrain from "breaking bread" over any of this. Non the less just to add a little fuel a verse and a quote.(grin)
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

"The Arminian objection against foreordination bears with equal force against the foreknowledge of God. What God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain."

Wizard,
Your example is that of free will. It is not the essence of what you say that I have any problem with, it is the extent.

To put it plainly, in the example you gave, if it was an analogy of salvation, you would never choose to go to the dinner.

We (none of us) would ever in our natural selves choose Christ. The sinful soul (every one of them) by the Bible's declaration, will never choose Christ. The dog will always return to its own vomit, and sin will always spiral to death. Only God can stop this cycle, for only God can change the heart.

On one hand I completely agree with your point. God will not force Himself on anyone. He does not drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven. Salvation comes by a free will acceptance of Jesus Christ through faith.

On the other hand, no one will come to Christ until the Spirit has been quickened. That means no one. We will not choose Christ on our own. Some how, in some manner He has not chosen to explain, He changes our "want-to". Who He chooses for this and why we do not know, but be certain of this, if He didn't, no one would ever be saved, for none of us seek Him.

You may never accept this, but please read my last post and at least consider that God will not share His glory. We cannot take any credit for any part of our salvation. We all could never understand it until God opened our blinded eyes with seeing eyes and gave us hearing ears and an understanding heart.

To understand free will we need only read the urgency in Paul's words as he strove to be a soul winner. We are commanded and expected to accept Christ. If we don't we are already condemned by our sin. God's final hand of judgment will fall, but we are condemned already.

To explain election (not Calvinism) we need only hear one prophet (though they all repeat it).

"Salvation is of the Lord!" (Jonah).

As I said, we cannot reconcile these two (though there are always going to be those who insist we must). It is not either or, but both, working in some way we do not see and cannot understand, for God has not deemed to explain it to us. And yes, I will add, IMHO.

We will all wonder, then, how exactly God differentiates between us...

If none of us would ever seek Christ unless He enabled us, then there is no difference whatsoever between me and you and a reprobate that goes into Hell forever. Actually I think that is largely true...

So then, do we imagine that God spins the cosmic lottery wheel and chooses only some of us? Even though there is no difference whatsoever between us?

That makes God unfair to part of His creation--and we know that He is not unfair. Here is where the Calvinist is in a conundrum. He says that God's soverignty is supreme (which is true) then he accuses God of creating sock puppets, some to raise up, and some to condemn, but none with any independent ability to rise or fall to the occasion God presents.

So even if we decide not to attempt reconciling Arminianism and Calvinism, we must still not allow ourselves to go around believing that God made some exclusively to condemn, and that these He never ever gives the chance of salvation. The soul who can accept such an abominable view of God makes me wonder if he knows Christ at all.

Dan

It isn't Armenianism versus Calvinism. It's Bible Salvation.

God doesn't always get what He 'wills'.
His plans don't always bear fruit as it concerns MAN'S RESPONSES in history.
At one point just prior to the flood of Noah, scripture says plainly that God repented( was sad-sorry) that He had ever made man for all their downward evil spiralings.

Scriptures are full of events and people who simply didn't hear and respond by faith to what God wanted( willed) to be.
He is persistent in His love and ultimately brought His perfect remedy for our fallen state to all who will recieve Christ, His only begotten Son.

Jesus said the following concerning His crucification( even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness), among other plain scriptures indicating the univesality of God's offering of salvation IN Christ for WHOSOEVER WILL.

" IF I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men unto me.."

so God is certainly 'willing' that all folks hear of and then receive by faith His gift of Life given through His Son Jesus Christ.

Our predestination is all IN Christ..
Until we accept Christ we are PRE-destined to hell as our sinful nature separates us from a Holy God .
Once we receive Christ our 'destination' changes from death, hell to life and Life eternal...so long as we by faith abide in Christ as branches in the true vine BY FAITH and the enabling Power of God IN us...

God's foreknowlege of who we are and what we will(can) become is all dependant on us receiving Christ by faith and abiding IN Him..

There is no human merit in hearing and responding to this great gift of Life thru faith.No works of mankind 'saving himself'.

All our Life in Christ from start to perseverence to that day are bound up inextricably and totally in the power, grace and gift of God as we live IN Christ and abide In Him by faith that is demonstrated every moment of the day..

Faith , and the true life's outworkings of obedience and surrender is the ALL IMPORTANT catalyst which separates those who will perish from those who won't. We by faith identify and immerse ourselves and accept His death and go from there into identification and acceptance of this New Life In Him.

Throw faith aside and become reprobate/shipwrecked and a person is in danger of being 'castaway', rejected..but it would be that person's <POOR> decision to abandon his faith in Christ.

IF this were to happen( and it HAS) the decision and consequences are upon that person, NOT due to God predestining or foreordaining that person to be lost. Jim