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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by jorgeI
IT begs the question (other than the chick factor) why did the FBI revert to the nine? Personally, I'd go with the 357 SIG over any other caliber for self defense.


They explained it pretty well.

Have you not read it?



Although I am not stepping into the debate I thought it would be interesting to read, here is one of a few links.

http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/


Related article.

http://looserounds.com/2014/02/02/dutydefense-carry-ammunition-selection/

The Rounds listed bellow in 9mm, .40 Cal and 45 ACP, have been tested extensively and/or meet your carry standard.

9mm

Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) such as loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester PDX1 124 gr +P JHP (S9MMPDB)
Winchester PDX1 147 gr JHP (S9MMPDB1)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dor 124gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Federal HST 124gr JHP +P (P9HST3)
.40 S&W

Barnes all-copper bullets (140 & 155gr) loaded by: Cor-Bon (DPX40140)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Winchester PDX1 165 gr JHP (S40SWPDB)
Winchester PDX1 160 gr JHP (S40SWPDB1)
Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP (53961)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP (53962)
Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
.45ACP

Barnes XPB/TAC-XP 185gr HP loaded by:
Cor-Bon (DPX45185)
Taurus (TCB45ACP185HP)
Winchester PDX1 230 gr JHP (S45SWPDb)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP +P (RA45TP)
Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
Federal HST 230gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP (23966)
Speer Gold Dot 230gr +P JHP (53969)

Last edited by RDW; 02/05/19.

Dave

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Thanks RDW. Can't believe that's five years old already.

If anybody can refute any of it I'm all ears.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave

If anybody can refute any of it I'm all ears.



can't help myself.... grin




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Hard to argue with most of the article, centered on this:
"LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"

There is also this: "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters"

So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Hard to argue with most of the article, centered on this:
"LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"

There is also this: "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters"

So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .


Or that...


Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."

Not sure this is correct in terms of 9mm vs .45 ACP. While depth of penetration, bullet expansion success, and weight retention, may be equal, the .45 expands to a significantly larger diameter, and produces permanent wound cavities that are significantly more voluminous, which just has to affect fight stopping performance, even if just by increasing the probability of destroying vitals per round.

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Originally Posted by jorgeI

So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .

The best out there today are HST and Gold Dot.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."

Not sure this is correct in terms of 9mm vs .45 ACP. While depth of penetration, bullet expansion success, and weight retention, may be equal, the .45 expands to a significantly larger diameter, and produces permanent wound cavities that are significantly more voluminous, which just has to affect fight stopping performance, even if just by increasing the probability of destroying vitals per round.



That's what the picture showed...


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Originally Posted by Owl
Originally Posted by deflave

If anybody can refute any of it I'm all ears.



can't help myself.... grin




[Linked Image]




I almost shot one of those once but shrap stopped me just in time.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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The FBI has recently chosen the Hornady Critical Duty +9 135 grain as their carry Ammo.



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Hard to argue with most of the article, centered on this:
"LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"

There is also this: "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters"

So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .


The article is not centered on any one thing. It's a determination based on the totality of the study.

Speer Gold Dot's 147gr.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."

Not sure this is correct in terms of 9mm vs .45 ACP. While depth of penetration, bullet expansion success, and weight retention, may be equal, the .45 expands to a significantly larger diameter, and produces permanent wound cavities that are significantly more voluminous, which just has to affect fight stopping performance, even if just by increasing the probability of destroying vitals per round.


It cites the works that helped them come to their conclusion.

If you want to hang your hat on any one thing (which is the opposite of what we should be looking at) you should probably read those.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.



Agree completely, even more so in guns smaller in size than a G23 or similar when talking about speed & accuracy, especially on targets beyond 7 yards or so.

You might be able to keep the speed up, but it will surely be at a significant sacrifice in accuracy, for all but the very top echelon shooters.

As for what ammo I carry in a 9mm, it's 124gr Federal HST's.

MM

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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Hard to argue with most of the article, centered on this:
"LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"

There is also this: "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters"

So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .


The article is not centered on any one thing. It's a determination based on the totality of the study.

Speer Gold Dot's 147gr.



I misspoke, should have said "I" centered on those things, but they are indeed central to the argument and yes the conclusion makes sense. ..


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
You might be able to keep the speed up, but it will surely be at a significant sacrifice in accuracy, for all but the very top echelon shooters.

Yeah, Paul Harrell made the case that any reasonably competent shooter should be able to shoot 9mm and .40 S&W about equally fast and accurate from the same sized guns, but he fails to take account of the fact that he's an exceptional shooter, even compared to most agents/cops.

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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.


You need to consider the gun you are shooting. The HK P7 M10 is such a gun and yes it does weigh more, but it is easily manageable...

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In 9mm Luger I like the 124gr +P hollow point, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot and WInchester PDX1. The modern 147gr bullets also seem to have quite a following.

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Originally Posted by shrapnel
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.


You need to consider the gun you are shooting. The HK P7 M10 is such a gun and yes it does weigh more, but it is easily manageable...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Yes but you will shoot the 9mm version of that gun faster than you will the .40.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by MontanaMan
You might be able to keep the speed up, but it will surely be at a significant sacrifice in accuracy, for all but the very top echelon shooters.

Yeah, Paul Harrell made the case that any reasonably competent shooter should be able to shoot 9mm and .40 S&W about equally fast and accurate from the same sized guns, but he fails to take account of the fact that he's an exceptional shooter, even compared to most agents/cops.


You see a lot of duty .40 rounds fired in local IPSC and IDPA matches?


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
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Originally Posted by jorgeI


I misspoke, should have said "I" centered on those things, but they are indeed central to the argument and yes the conclusion makes sense. ..


10-4


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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